Super Rugby - The Future
-
What we've lacked since the South African sides left - and the Jaguares, Sunwolves and Pacific franchises joined - is a viable meaning or context to the competition.
Previously it was the best domestic sides from the three powerhouses (and most successful nations) of professional rugby. The team that won (and, importantly, its fans) could claim to be the best domestic side in the world. That meant something; either side of the equator.
With South African leaving and far-flung franchises joining (and not ignoring the recent downfall of the Wallabies) we now have a competition that crowns a champion of no real relevance or significance.
The old Super 12/14/15 had true sporting context. Yes, there were mismatches and games played at odd times for various sets of viewers but it always progressed to a tangible context at season's end.
People complained about about those viewing times being the downfall of the old Super 12/14/15. I've seen the current ratings and still Kiwi fans won't watch anything outside of 4:30pm and 7:05pm kickoffs - even when NZ sides are involved.. And I'd imagine the equivalent is true of Aussie viewers.
So if no one is watching un-appealing kick-offs in a Pacific-only comp then then South African 3am kick-offs aren't the issue no matter what the alignment of sides within Super Rugby.
-
We've had three years of "Super is shit because the Saffas aren't here", now we've got a page of the thread full of the "Saffas were shit".
@Nepia said in Super Rugby - The Future:
We've had three years of "Super is shit because the Saffas aren't here", now we've got a page of the thread full of the "Saffas were shit".
My point was the Saffa forwards made our forwards and the Aussie forwards harder regardless of the overall quality of their teams. That's not saying SRP is shit.
-
@gt12 said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@WoodysRFC said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@Bones said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@Nepia don't forget Super Rugby doesn't prepare players for international rugby if I conveniently ignore many in form SR players delivering at test time.
Apparently it's a lesser competition to the Top 14, URC, and English Prem too.
Here's the thing.
It probably is.
It's not necessarily the quality, but also the variation we are missing.Variation meaning?
@WoodysRFC said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@gt12 said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@WoodysRFC said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@Bones said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@Nepia don't forget Super Rugby doesn't prepare players for international rugby if I conveniently ignore many in form SR players delivering at test time.
Apparently it's a lesser competition to the Top 14, URC, and English Prem too.
Here's the thing.
It probably is.
It's not necessarily the quality, but also the variation we are missing.Variation meaning?
For starters, we miss the best domestic sides from the current b2b WC.
As they play in their own manner, we miss the variation in strategy and approach from the SA sides.
Altogether, it lessens the competition - we are just a little competition representing two small countries, one of whom hardly matters are the moment.
About 5 years ago Super rugby represented the southern hemisphere, even one Argie side mattered.
That's gone and that's why they should have done more to keep the SA sides.I see that @Wurzel has got here ahead of me on some of this.
-
@WoodysRFC said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@gt12 said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@WoodysRFC said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@Bones said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@Nepia don't forget Super Rugby doesn't prepare players for international rugby if I conveniently ignore many in form SR players delivering at test time.
Apparently it's a lesser competition to the Top 14, URC, and English Prem too.
Here's the thing.
It probably is.
It's not necessarily the quality, but also the variation we are missing.Variation meaning?
For starters, we miss the best domestic sides from the current b2b WC.
As they play in their own manner, we miss the variation in strategy and approach from the SA sides.
Altogether, it lessens the competition - we are just a little competition representing two small countries, one of whom hardly matters are the moment.
About 5 years ago Super rugby represented the southern hemisphere, even one Argie side mattered.
That's gone and that's why they should have done more to keep the SA sides.I see that @Wurzel has got here ahead of me on some of this.
@gt12 said in Super Rugby - The Future:
About 5 years ago Super rugby represented the southern hemisphere, even one Argie side mattered.
I'd go so far as to say, the periods when Super is strong correlate with All Black/southern hemisphere dominance.
It's been brutally mismanaged. We got to 18 sides remember, and then the bottom fell out. We're now at 11 and possibly 10, and they are marginally sustainable. There is no doubt in my mind the quality of Super over the last 10 years has been in decline (possibly this year excepted).
-
@gt12 said in Super Rugby - The Future:
About 5 years ago Super rugby represented the southern hemisphere, even one Argie side mattered.
I'd go so far as to say, the periods when Super is strong correlate with All Black/southern hemisphere dominance.
It's been brutally mismanaged. We got to 18 sides remember, and then the bottom fell out. We're now at 11 and possibly 10, and they are marginally sustainable. There is no doubt in my mind the quality of Super over the last 10 years has been in decline (possibly this year excepted).
@nzzp said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@gt12 said in Super Rugby - The Future:
About 5 years ago Super rugby represented the southern hemisphere, even one Argie side mattered.
I'd go so far as to say, the periods when Super is strong correlate with All Black/southern hemisphere dominance.
It's been brutally mismanaged. We got to 18 sides remember, and then the bottom fell out. We're now at 11 and possibly 10, and they are marginally sustainable. There is no doubt in my mind the quality of Super over the last 10 years has been in decline (possibly this year excepted).
There were still 3 SH sides in the RWC semis mind you.
-
i think setting them up in Melbourne would be a huge mistake, locals didnt support the rebels even though they were supposedly representing them...let alone if theyre actually from somewhere else, surprisingly few south africans knocking around the rugby scene here
relocating MP MIGHT be able to tap into the expat PI communities...maybe
my biggest gripe was always games in RSA seemed to be afternoon or late after noon so 3am NZ time....but games in NZ were always 730 or even 8 (i was told and i dont know hoe true this is but so it was a better time for RSA to watch)....a more even schedule would help a lot...for me
@Kiwiwomble When we lived in SA we could watch the NZ games in the morning, then any Aus match and that would fold in to the home games in SA. It was a whole day's viewing if you wished.
-
having had a read of the collective agreement thread, i'd be happy to give SR to the players
they threatened to go their own way, so give it to them and see we they can do
i.e. SANZAR SR being completely separated out and left to operate independentlya lot/most? sports have their pro branch separated out from the national sports associations
just so long as NZR doesn't grant them any money, let the comp survive or die on its own
the only NZR involvement would be the loan to SR of their AB contracted players, which is sort of what happens now
NZR would be responsible for the black teams, and grass roots/development -
I watch it but highlights package on YouTube
Sky prices in the UK are a joke
So I know what's going on and enjoy the product but don't get counted in the stats
I can't be alone in that
-
@Bones said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@Nepia don't forget Super Rugby doesn't prepare players for international rugby if I conveniently ignore many in form SR players delivering at test time.
Apparently it's a lesser competition to the Top 14, URC, and English Prem too.
@WoodysRFC said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@Bones said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@Nepia don't forget Super Rugby doesn't prepare players for international rugby if I conveniently ignore many in form SR players delivering at test time.
Apparently it's a lesser competition to the Top 14, URC, and English Prem too.
Top 14, right now yes. URC and English Prem, nope.
-
The year before a RWC is always big as well.
@mariner4life said in Exodus:
The year before a RWC is always big as well.
so the incumbents dont even have the illusion of someone looking over their shoulder....im sure we'll see the best performances from people that feel it doesn't matter how well they play
-
Harsh reality, but all the wealthy clubs are going to be pillaging all of Super's best players prior to the Club World Cup in 2028
@hikastags I think in the past we have had the stocks coming through, had the systems and coaches to keep things rolling despite the pressure from all the players leaving, however in the past half dozen or so years these exits are really starting to tell, particularly the coaching losses.
We may well still be producing the athletes, but it would seem its our coaching, technical skills and development of players that are being found wanting.
I dont think it is too late to turn it around, but I am not convinced we have the right people in place (upper echelons of NZR and overall coaching at all levels) to make changes before we are terminal.
-
@hikastags I think in the past we have had the stocks coming through, had the systems and coaches to keep things rolling despite the pressure from all the players leaving, however in the past half dozen or so years these exits are really starting to tell, particularly the coaching losses.
We may well still be producing the athletes, but it would seem its our coaching, technical skills and development of players that are being found wanting.
I dont think it is too late to turn it around, but I am not convinced we have the right people in place (upper echelons of NZR and overall coaching at all levels) to make changes before we are terminal.
@taniwharugby said in Exodus:
@hikastags I think in the past we have had the stocks coming through, had the systems and coaches to keep things rolling despite the pressure from all the players leaving, however in the past half dozen or so years these exits are really starting to tell, particularly the coaching losses.
We may well still be producing the athletes, but it would seem its our coaching, technical skills and development of players that are being found wanting.
I dont think it is too late to turn it around, but I am not convinced we have the right people in place (upper echelons of NZR and overall coaching at all levels) to make changes before we are terminal.
Yeah agree... It's not looking good atm. Super Rugby needs to realise paying your elite players a maximum of 185k is complete dogshit.
Some half-decent management at NZRU would also be a great start. We lose players like AJ Lam, yet we have the likes of ALB as a top-10 highest paid AB chewing almost $1million in salary cap... ALB is so mediocre he can only get 183mins total for these shitty Razor ABs.
If Super wants to get back to being great, then Aussie needs to start pulling finger as they're the ones who can raise the ceiling of the competition.
-
To be fair, to date hes a 25 year old who has played maybe 20 games of super rugby? If he doesnt take it, hes banking on being a ~27 year old in 2028 hoping to have a break out season and make the ABs. risky at best unless he really loves playing super rugby
@DurryMexted said in Exodus:
To be fair, to date hes a 25 year old who has played maybe 20 games of super rugby? If he doesnt take it, hes banking on being a ~27 year old in 2028 hoping to have a break out season and make the ABs. risky at best unless he really loves playing super rugby
That's a damning indictment on player development and progression.
-
i have said it before, and i will continue to say it again and again no matter how often the misty-eyed NPC tragics tell me i am wrong.
The problem is our season structure is completey fucked and no longer fit for purpose. Our 2nd tier of player have all their elite rugby finished by June for the year. They will no longer play with, or against, even NZs best players, for the next 7 months. 35 ABs will disappear to play 14 games (well, probably 8-10 will play some part in 3 or 4) every one else gets to kick rocks in park footy.
The rest of the world has their best players and their up and comers playing each other pretty much all year, with short international breaks.
Fuck, we even let some of our elite players piss off overseas.
Those who say the NPC is still essential sound exactly like the guys we laugh at for saying Aus rugby was best when they just had the Shute Shield so they should just go back to that.
1998 was a very, very long time ago.
-
@reprobate said in Exodus:
Pushing everyone down a spot and making them more likely to leave is fine. That's competition.
What's not fine is pushing everyone down a spot temporarily when the global pinnacle happens, so a guy can have his cake and eat it.I guess that's still competition - Richie has opened the door wide and given all comers a shot at "his" jersey and appears to be backing himself to be able to come back and take it back. We've yet to see how that pans out.
Interestingly, I had a similar converstation with TR probably a decade ago - about rowing. Either Waddell or Drysdale had pulled the same move - buggering off and then coming back for the Olympics.
I was taking your side and TR was taking mine. I believe I called him a disciple of Ruth Richardson, or similar!
@Chris-B said in Exodus:
@reprobate said in Exodus:
Pushing everyone down a spot and making them more likely to leave is fine. That's competition.
What's not fine is pushing everyone down a spot temporarily when the global pinnacle happens, so a guy can have his cake and eat it.I guess that's still competition - Richie has opened the door wide and given all comers a shot at "his" jersey and appears to be backing himself to be able to come back and take it back. We've yet to see how that pans out.
The issue I have with this perception is Richie's doesn't have to earn it back. His seat is being kept warm for him.
All parties know this.
-
I think we all knew Sotutu would leave.
Dead horse I know, but no way is Lakai (who I actually support being a Canes fan) a better No8 than Sotutu
Wonder if we will ever get the real story about why he was unwanted.I believe there are four main reasons.
Firstly, Razor prefers hybrid players over specialists. Both Sotutu and Papali'i are basically specialists. Papali'i has played a bit at 8 and 6 but he basically plays the same clean/ruck focused game no matter which position he plays.
Papali'i and Sotutu go hand and hand together. Sotutu is more focused on ball in hand attack while Papali'i is more focused on defense and ruck work.
Secondly, the former Crusaders cohort do not respect the Blues players as much because the Crusaders were their bogey team. Contrast that with the Chiefs who have beaten the Crusaders handsomely a number of times - AB's squads and AB's XV squads are packed with Chiefs players.
Thirdly, they have a completely misguided idea that the Blues fortunes are largely based on Tuipulotu, Barrett, Christie, and Clarke. Tuipulotu is a major factor for sure but he's not the only reason. Clarke has been a great contributor to the Blues success but he is often injured. Barrett wasn't involved in either of the Blue's titles and the Blue's have thrived when he hasn't been there. Christie played a part but wasn't crucial to last years dominant team.
Forth, they do not like flagrant arrogant Aucklanders - I do think this is lower down on the list of reasons but Ryan is the guy who has some kind of chip.
-
This is a reflection of the top-down approach to salaries by NZR, where you only maximise your income by being in the ABs, or are a marquee player. The NRL salary model would prevent so many players heading overseas as the majority of your salary would be for SR.
-
i have said it before, and i will continue to say it again and again no matter how often the misty-eyed NPC tragics tell me i am wrong.
The problem is our season structure is completey fucked and no longer fit for purpose. Our 2nd tier of player have all their elite rugby finished by June for the year. They will no longer play with, or against, even NZs best players, for the next 7 months. 35 ABs will disappear to play 14 games (well, probably 8-10 will play some part in 3 or 4) every one else gets to kick rocks in park footy.
The rest of the world has their best players and their up and comers playing each other pretty much all year, with short international breaks.
Fuck, we even let some of our elite players piss off overseas.
Those who say the NPC is still essential sound exactly like the guys we laugh at for saying Aus rugby was best when they just had the Shute Shield so they should just go back to that.
1998 was a very, very long time ago.
@mariner4life i think the problems run deeper than npc in whatever format you have it.
Issues start before the npc, then the timing and format of it is a separate issue.
