All Blacks vs Argentina I
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our loose forward trio is just like when the Aussies wheeled out Smith and Waugh, except we've also added Davey Pocock.
Except, you know, Smith was elite, pocock was as good as anyone ever when the ball hit the floor. Also Waugh was there.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
our loose forward trio is just like when the Aussies wheeled out Smith and Waugh, except we've also added Davey Pocock.
Except, you know, Smith was elite, pocock was as good as anyone ever when the ball hit the floor. Also Waugh was there.
It actually reminds me of tours back in the 80s/90s, where in every provincial game the tourists would come up against yet another very good hard tackling 7... none of whom were ever selected for the all blacks, because they're not exactly michael fucking jones, are they?
Now here we are, selecting not one, but all of them.
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you only have to go back to 2005 where the poor old Lions were up against the best depth in any position i have ever seen in NZ rugby in every single game.
Not many caps between them (for NZ) because the 7 shirt belonged to one man and one man alone.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
our loose forward trio is just like when the Aussies wheeled out Smith and Waugh, except we've also added Davey Pocock.
Except, you know, Smith was elite, pocock was as good as anyone ever when the ball hit the floor. Also Waugh was there.
It actually reminds me of tours back in the 80s/90s, where in every provincial game the tourists would come up against yet another very good hard tackling 7... none of whom were ever selected for the all blacks, because they're not exactly michael fucking jones, are they?
Now here we are, selecting not one, but all of them.
@reprobate A lot of them probably did though. A flick through All Blacks 900-1000 throws up the following loose forwards:
Kevin Schuler, Mark Carter, Richard Turner, Aaron Pene, Jamie Joseph, Blair Larsen, Pat Lam, Dallas Seymour, Glenn Taylor, Liam Barry, John Mitchell, Todd Blackadder, Taine Randell, Andrew Blowers, Chresten Davis, Steve Surridge, Aaron Hopa, Isotolo Maka, Scott Robertson, Xavier Rush, Kupu Vanisi, Dylan Mika, Rueben Thorne, Troy Flavell, Filo Tiatia, Ron Cribb and Marty Holah.
Some very good players - some who might have stood at the top of the pantheon but for being blocked by the likes of Jones, Zinny, McCaw and Kronfeld (who might be a half step down).
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you only have to go back to 2005 where the poor old Lions were up against the best depth in any position i have ever seen in NZ rugby in every single game.
Not many caps between them (for NZ) because the 7 shirt belonged to one man and one man alone.
@mariner4life yeah our 7s pretty much schooled them through every game, even when they put a hundy over Manawatu, Josh Bradnock was excellent.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@canefan said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Razor continues to have a massive horn for Blackadder. That's all very well but it's time for him to show everyone why now
it's not just Razor. The last group did everything they could to get him involved as well. I wish someone would tell us what we are missing.
Since you asked... and to post some documented stuff.
Ethan has a massive motor.
Best Bronco times:
McCaw: 4.30
Blackadder 4.32 (4.34 in the article below but there's a podcast where he says 4.32)
Papalií 4.45That's pretty good for a guy who's probably slightly bigger than Richie - and will be playing 6.
His best position is 7 (especially at this level). If they picked him and Paps and said go to it, it would’ve been very understandable.
But, he’s picked at 6?
Richie motor doesn’t really equal great AB six.
Btw, I’ll be pleased to be shown I’m wrong if goes great fun’s, but honestly if we want a Crusader 6, it should be either of the other two options.
I'm concerned players are not being given clear roles in this squad. Razor has talked about favouring players that can play more than one position. Against Fiji we had Blackadder starting at 7, and now against Argentina he is starting at 6, a very different position at test level. Why? Against Fiji we had ALB at 12, and he had a very strong game there. Against Argentina we have him starting at 13, again a very different position at test level. Why?
We've seen this strategy fail spectacularly time and again at the top level, and it has ruined players form and confidence. In fact I can't really think of a player that has truly succeeded in regularly playing different positions for the ABs.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@canefan said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Razor continues to have a massive horn for Blackadder. That's all very well but it's time for him to show everyone why now
it's not just Razor. The last group did everything they could to get him involved as well. I wish someone would tell us what we are missing.
Since you asked... and to post some documented stuff.
Ethan has a massive motor.
Best Bronco times:
McCaw: 4.30
Blackadder 4.32 (4.34 in the article below but there's a podcast where he says 4.32)
Papalií 4.45That's pretty good for a guy who's probably slightly bigger than Richie - and will be playing 6.
His best position is 7 (especially at this level). If they picked him and Paps and said go to it, it would’ve been very understandable.
But, he’s picked at 6?
Richie motor doesn’t really equal great AB six.
Btw, I’ll be pleased to be shown I’m wrong if goes great fun’s, but honestly if we want a Crusader 6, it should be either of the other two options.
I'm concerned players are not being given clear roles in this squad. Razor has talked about favouring players that can play more than one position. Against Fiji we had Blackadder starting at 7, and now against Argentina he is starting at 6, a very different position at test level. Why? Against Fiji we had ALB at 12, and he had a very strong game there. Against Argentina we have him starting at 13, again a very different position at test level. Why?
We've seen this strategy fail spectacularly time and again at the top level, and it has ruined players form and confidence. In fact I can't really think of a player that has truly succeeded in regularly playing different positions for the ABs.
I’m not too concerned about the variation whilst it’s early days with the new coaches.
We have seen this movie before. Take Rodders for example. The first test he started under Henry and co in 2004 was at blindside against Wales. Rodders was a pretty versatile player but I don’t think many would classify him as a 6. The following week he started at no8 against France. Fast forward to the Lions series and he started tests at both no8 and openside.
You can’t do that with every loose forward - remember the Holah at blindside test that was a failure - but there are players like Rodders, like Masoe, like Blackadder that can play that role. Sure they had preferred positions no doubt, but they are there to fill a role.
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@Windows97 We now have running halfbacks and they are looking at passing centres. So the TWM are working on varying the attack. Sititi, Aumua and Savea are all good carriers. A work in progress.
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@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
We entered this year super thin in a few positions because the last two years every game was a must win and the same old side rolled out.
We have to start playing some new guys, or we will enter the next RWC with some broken old men and lots of barely-played newbs.
Edit: and by "playing" I mean playing under red hot conditions, like in South Africa. Merely giving the next tier of players a spell or two in lighter games simply is not preparing them, or the team, properly.
Whose to say that the new guys aren't better? We'll never know if we never give them a chance.
You realise we have something like 45 tests before the next WC right?
Yeah, and I also know we won a RWC with our fourth-string 1st-5 who had played 24 tests by that point. We may not even get our reserve 1st-5 to that many tests at this rate by the next RWC, given that it won't be Beauden Barrett and even Mo'unga will be 33.
At some point we have to stop being conservative. It's not Razor's fault that Foster didn't want to try any new players, but it is his responsibility to deal with the problem.
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
We entered this year super thin in a few positions because the last two years every game was a must win and the same old side rolled out.
We have to start playing some new guys, or we will enter the next RWC with some broken old men and lots of barely-played newbs.
Edit: and by "playing" I mean playing under red hot conditions, like in South Africa. Merely giving the next tier of players a spell or two in lighter games simply is not preparing them, or the team, properly.
Whose to say that the new guys aren't better? We'll never know if we never give them a chance.
You realise we have something like 45 tests before the next WC right?
Yeah, and I also know we won a RWC with our fourth-string 1st-5 who had played 24 tests by that point. We may not even get our reserve 1st-5 to that many tests at this rate by the next RWC, given that it won't be Beauden Barrett and even Mo'unga will be 33.
At some point we have to stop being conservative. It's not Razor's fault that Foster didn't want to try any new players, but it is his responsibility to deal with the problem.
You want our 4th choice 10 identified before we have our first choice cemented?
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@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
We entered this year super thin in a few positions because the last two years every game was a must win and the same old side rolled out.
We have to start playing some new guys, or we will enter the next RWC with some broken old men and lots of barely-played newbs.
Edit: and by "playing" I mean playing under red hot conditions, like in South Africa. Merely giving the next tier of players a spell or two in lighter games simply is not preparing them, or the team, properly.
Whose to say that the new guys aren't better? We'll never know if we never give them a chance.
You realise we have something like 45 tests before the next WC right?
Yeah, and I also know we won a RWC with our fourth-string 1st-5 who had played 24 tests by that point. We may not even get our reserve 1st-5 to that many tests at this rate by the next RWC, given that it won't be Beauden Barrett and even Mo'unga will be 33.
At some point we have to stop being conservative. It's not Razor's fault that Foster didn't want to try any new players, but it is his responsibility to deal with the problem.
You want our 4th choice 10 identified before we have our first choice cemented?
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
We entered this year super thin in a few positions because the last two years every game was a must win and the same old side rolled out.
We have to start playing some new guys, or we will enter the next RWC with some broken old men and lots of barely-played newbs.
Edit: and by "playing" I mean playing under red hot conditions, like in South Africa. Merely giving the next tier of players a spell or two in lighter games simply is not preparing them, or the team, properly.
Whose to say that the new guys aren't better? We'll never know if we never give them a chance.
You realise we have something like 45 tests before the next WC right?
Yeah, and I also know we won a RWC with our fourth-string 1st-5 who had played 24 tests by that point. We may not even get our reserve 1st-5 to that many tests at this rate by the next RWC, given that it won't be Beauden Barrett and even Mo'unga will be 33.
At some point we have to stop being conservative. It's not Razor's fault that Foster didn't want to try any new players, but it is his responsibility to deal with the problem.
You want our 4th choice 10 identified before we have our first choice cemented?
Beauden Barrett better learn how to go white baiting
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I just can’t wait for the first loss of the new coaching regime. My god are we going to hear you whinging c**ts then.
@chchfanatic said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
I just can’t wait for the first loss of the new coaching regime. My god are we going to hear you whinging c**ts then.
I'm not like you, I hope the All Blacks win.
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My fear with the AB's and it has been for a long time is our lack of ball carriers in the forward pack.
With time and space well can rip anyone apart, but everyone's defensive gameplan is to give us no time and space so we need heavy ball runners to dent to line so we can create space.
I just dont think that the "choose a mobile pack and run everyone off their feet" is a realistic gameplan, especially with a 23 man squad and everyone simply lifting their game as professionalism does. I think that gameplan is outdated.
Now it maybe a case in that we simply don't have the cattle, and were doing the best with the players we have but if that's the case and we havn't got heavy ball runners were going to need some innovation and smart thinking to create space, somehow across the field.
For me that's going to be the main challenge of this coaching group.
To be honest dude, if you and others can see that on a rugby forum, I am pretty sure Razor and co are aware of the issue too.
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not sold out yet? dont know if this has changed much since yesterday
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
not sold out yet? dont know if this has changed much since yesterday
Quite frankly, that’s shithouse and oh so provincial
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
not sold out yet? dont know if this has changed much since yesterday
Quite frankly, that’s shithouse and oh so provincial
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
not sold out yet? dont know if this has changed much since yesterday
Quite frankly, that’s shithouse and oh so provincial
too many games in Welly. And this isn't the attractive one. And yet places like the Tron don't get one ... I dno't get it. Spread them around FFS
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@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
not sold out yet? dont know if this has changed much since yesterday
Quite frankly, that’s shithouse and oh so provincial
too many games in Welly. And this isn't the attractive one. And yet places like the Tron don't get one ... I dno't get it. Spread them around FFS
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
not sold out yet? dont know if this has changed much since yesterday
Quite frankly, that’s shithouse and oh so provincial
too many games in Welly. And this isn't the attractive one. And yet places like the Tron don't get one ... I dno't get it. Spread them around FFS
It’s not like the ABs play at home 30 times a year
Poor
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
not sold out yet? dont know if this has changed much since yesterday
Quite frankly, that’s shithouse and oh so provincial
I agree, it’s not a good look.
But it probably shows the changing interest of NZ population. The ABs are not the religion they once were.
The stadium capacity is probably around 10% of the local population (within an hour of the stadium roughly - that’s off the top of my head, I could be wrong by a few % points) and Argentina don’t bring away fans like in the 6 nations.
But it is surprising that it is only at 70% capacity at this stage.
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I agree, it’s not a good look.
But it probably shows the changing interest of NZ population. The ABs are not the religion they once were.
The stadium capacity is probably around 10% of the local population (within an hour of the stadium roughly - that’s off the top of my head, I could be wrong by a few % points) and Argentina don’t bring away fans like in the 6 nations.
But it is surprising that it is only at 70% capacity at this stage.
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
But it probably shows the changing interest of NZ population. The ABs are not the religion they once were.
So ... don't play 2 tests in Wellington in a year?
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The reasons for a national stadium keep adding up.
Naming rights look good too.
And it will stop cities building stadiums they need once every few years.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
not sold out yet? dont know if this has changed much since yesterday
Quite frankly, that’s shithouse and oh so provincial
too many games in Welly. And this isn't the attractive one. And yet places like the Tron don't get one ... I dno't get it. Spread them around FFS
It’s not like the ABs play at home 30 times a year
Poor
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
not sold out yet? dont know if this has changed much since yesterday
Quite frankly, that’s shithouse and oh so provincial
too many games in Welly. And this isn't the attractive one. And yet places like the Tron don't get one ... I dno't get it. Spread them around FFS
It’s not like the ABs play at home 30 times a year
Poor
Maybe so. Still should spread the games around
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@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
not sold out yet? dont know if this has changed much since yesterday
Quite frankly, that’s shithouse and oh so provincial
too many games in Welly. And this isn't the attractive one. And yet places like the Tron don't get one ... I dno't get it. Spread them around FFS
It’s not like the ABs play at home 30 times a year
Poor
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
not sold out yet? dont know if this has changed much since yesterday
Quite frankly, that’s shithouse and oh so provincial
too many games in Welly. And this isn't the attractive one. And yet places like the Tron don't get one ... I dno't get it. Spread them around FFS
It’s not like the ABs play at home 30 times a year
Poor
It is argentina though. They aren't usually a great watch compared to other sides.
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@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
not sold out yet? dont know if this has changed much since yesterday
Quite frankly, that’s shithouse and oh so provincial
too many games in Welly. And this isn't the attractive one. And yet places like the Tron don't get one ... I dno't get it. Spread them around FFS
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
not sold out yet? dont know if this has changed much since yesterday
Quite frankly, that’s shithouse and oh so provincial
too many games in Welly. And this isn't the attractive one. And yet places like the Tron don't get one ... I dno't get it. Spread them around FFS
I think one of problems is Olympic Games, I think they really should of moved it to afternoon game like Aus have with their test against Boks.
Especially when you think Sky who is broadcasting the test is also doing Olympics. You certainly wouldn't get anyone probably but rusted on rugby people. -
The reasons for a national stadium keep adding up.
Naming rights look good too.
And it will stop cities building stadiums they need once every few years.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
The reasons for a national stadium keep adding up.
Naming rights look good too.
And it will stop cities building stadiums they need once every few years.
Built slightly north of wellington so it's easy access for the whole country.
With great training facilities nearby and even an outdoor activity arena with breweries.
Trentham here we come!
