All Blacks vs Wallabies I
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
trashing aussie also feels slightly hollow, all the talk about super rugby not being good enough anymore...and how rough rugby in aussie is....we need them to be strong so thrashing them doesnt help much
Honest opinion: the move by NZ and RSA to resume tours is basically the death knell for Super Rugby.
And it has served its purpose. It got professionalism going and stood up a product that was the envy of the rugby world.
However, I think we can all agree Fox paid overs for the game out of the blocks, and the sport is experiencing withdrawal symptoms, particularly here.
Time to do something different, and for Australia that probably means getting through the next TV deal and then using some RWC profits to develop a national club competition. It will, necessarily, be focused on Sydney, Brisbane, and Canberra - at least to begin with.
Between now and then, we'll need to have realigned our pathways to ensure clubs sit ahead of schools, or we condemn ourselves to terminal decline. Even if that means little clubs like mine get absorbed into Premier Clubs, for the good of the game it is the price to pay
@NTA agreed
i dont think we can keep concentrating so much on the international game...and then complaining the franchise / club game is weak
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@kpkanz said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@booboo Plummer is 26 and only really in his second season of regular game time. He's hardly over the hill. He also led the champion team around the park excellently.
The Plummer hype needs to die down.
I mean the guys got 75 caps at super level. He's been around for 6 seasons now with plenty of opportunity to make an impression on the coaches yet hasnt been able to nail the starting 10 position at his own club.
For the vast majority of his Blues career when he wasnt behind Beauden, he was still behind Perofeta and Otere Black ffs. The only starts he got were when both of them were injured.
The Blues in 2021 won Super Rugby Trans Ta$man with Otere Black, with Plummer sitting on the bench.
Even this year in his breakthrough year, Plummer wasn't the preferred 10.
Perofeta started at 10 for the first 6 rounds until he got injured.The Blues record at that time, with Perofeta leading before injury was 5-1 (only losing to the top of the table Hurricanes).
Only once Perofeta got injured did Plummer get the starting 10 spot. Perofeta only came back 2 weeks before the knockouts.
A week after coming back he was immediately made starting 10 again.
The only reason he didn't continue as starting 10 for the rest of the playoffs is because Sullivan (as the only other experienced fullback) got injured, Perofeta was then moved to fullback to fill the spot and Plummer brought back into 10 for the rest of the playoffs.
So I find it difficult to imagine investing time in a guy for the AB's starting 10 spot when he wasn't even the preferred 10 at his own super club.
Even the coaches who spend the most time with him preferred other players we already have access to.
No one is pretending he's the second coming of DC, merely that since he's in the squad we should give him some time to see what a bigger body, that's displayed defensive capability, an ability to make good decisions keeping the ball in front of his forwards and giving his backline time and space could do for the team.
Because let's be honest here, McKenzie was really fucking average on the weekend. And good results come from competition for spots.
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
Because let's be honest here, McKenzie was really fucking average on the weekend. And good results come from competition for spots.
What did he do wrong? Or at least what did he do average? Genuine question.
I did not get negative vibes watching live.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
Because let's be honest here, McKenzie was really fucking average on the weekend. And good results come from competition for spots.
What did he do wrong? Or at least what did he do average? Genuine question.
I did not get negative vibes watching live.
@booboo said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
Because let's be honest here, McKenzie was really fucking average on the weekend. And good results come from competition for spots.
What did he do wrong? Or at least what did he do average? Genuine question.
I did not get negative vibes watching live.
IMO he consistently placed others under pressure through hesitation or poor execution. The two times I considered he was good were in the first half but those moments were started by other players. His much vaunted ability to "unlock defences", with the arguably better service from Ratima didn't eventuate.
I haven't seen an All Black backline play that consistently poorly in a long time. Not all his fault, but as the 10 he bears some responsibility.
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@canefan said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@kpkanz said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@canefan said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@kpkanz said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@booboo Plummer is 26 and only really in his second season of regular game time. He's hardly over the hill. He also led the champion team around the park excellently.
The Plummer hype needs to die down.
I mean the guys got 75 caps at super level. He's been around for 6 seasons now with plenty of opportunity to make an impression on the coaches yet hasnt been able to nail the starting 10 position at his own club.
For the vast majority of his Blues career when he wasnt behind Beauden, he was still behind Perofeta and Otere Black ffs. The only starts he got were when both of them were injured.
The Blues in 2021 won Super Rugby Trans Ta$man with Otere Black, with Plummer sitting on the bench.
Even this year in his breakthrough year, Plummer wasn't the preferred 10.
Perofeta started at 10 for the first 6 rounds until he got injured.The Blues record at that time, with Perofeta leading before injury was 5-1 (only losing to the top of the table Hurricanes).
Only once Perofeta got injured did Plummer get the starting 10 spot. Perofeta only came back 2 weeks before the knockouts.
A week after coming back he was immediately made starting 10 again.
The only reason he didn't continue as starting 10 for the rest of the playoffs is because Sullivan (as the only other experienced fullback) got injured, Perofeta was then moved to fullback to fill the spot and Plummer brought back into 10 for the rest of the playoffs.
So I find it difficult to imagine investing time in a guy for the AB's starting 10 spot when he wasn't even the preferred 10 at his own super club.
Even the coaches who spend the most time with him preferred other players we already have access to.
No one is pretending he's the second coming of DC, merely that since he's in the squad we should give him some time to see what a bigger body, that's displayed defensive capability, an ability to make good decisions keeping the ball in front of his forwards and giving his backline time and space could do for the team.
Because let's be honest here, McKenzie was really fucking average on the weekend. And good results come from competition for spots.
Exactly. I don't know why some posters seem to think this is a zero sum game. Just because we should try Plummer doesn't mean we need to bin DMac to do it
Sure. But isn't he just a stop gap until Perofeta comes back?
If our aim is to give players experience in positions we are planning long term, is there any point doing so with Plummer if he's just out of the squad once Perofeta is back?
In which case, isn't it just a better use of the limited tests we have a year to give our actual starting and long term 10 more and more experience as he doesn't even have 10 caps starting at this level in that position?
I have no faith in Perofeta. He couldn't even get past Plummer at the Blues. Until proven otherwise I don't see him as anything more than a utility, and I think there is greater potential in a few others
Yeah Perofeta is not the answer, I'm hoping the only reason he made the ABs was because of MacDonald. Let's hope we don't see him again.
I wouldn't have picked Perofeta for the squad but he played really well against England in both games. He showed far more composure than what we've seen from BB and Jordan at fullback and made things happen without resorting to low percentage plays.
On that basis he deserves to be higher in the pecking order than the unproven Love. Perofeta is also a better defender than Love.
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@Canes4life Aumua, Numia, Williams, Sotutu, Lakai, Roigard, Sullivan
@george33 said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Canes4life Aumua, Numia, Williams, Sotutu, Lakai, Roigard, Sullivan
Any tightheads?
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I wouldn't have picked Perofeta for the squad but he played really well against England in both games. He showed far more composure than what we've seen from BB and Jordan at fullback and made things happen without resorting to low percentage plays.
On that basis he deserves to be higher in the pecking order than the unproven Love. Perofeta is also a better defender than Love.
@brodean said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
I wouldn't have picked Perofeta for the squad but he played really well against England in both games. He showed far more composure than what we've seen from BB and Jordan at fullback and made things happen without resorting to low percentage plays.
On that basis he deserves to be higher in the pecking order than the unproven Love. Perofeta is also a better defender than Love.
eactaly what i was thinking...wouldnt have picked him at the start but if people are given half a chance and they run with it then it should be rewarded
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Time to test out fullbacks Love Perofeta
Wings RI Jordan Clarke
Centre Proctor -
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
id say we will probably come out and pump the Wallabies and look ok doing it and not get really tested until the NH games, so we are probably not going to find out too much
Even after they got fucking humped, I still have some trepidations that we're entirely capable of playing down to their level and making it a cripple fight.
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
id say we will probably come out and pump the Wallabies and look ok doing it and not get really tested until the NH games, so we are probably not going to find out too much
Even after they got fucking humped, I still have some trepidations that we're entirely capable of playing down to their level and making it a cripple fight.
100%
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@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
id say we will probably come out and pump the Wallabies and look ok doing it and not get really tested until the NH games, so we are probably not going to find out too much
Even after they got fucking humped, I still have some trepidations that we're entirely capable of playing down to their level and making it a cripple fight.
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
id say we will probably come out and pump the Wallabies and look ok doing it and not get really tested until the NH games, so we are probably not going to find out too much
Even after they got fucking humped, I still have some trepidations that we're entirely capable of playing down to their level and making it a cripple fight.
I recall many occasions where we rise to fight the Boks, only to slump against the Wobs
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@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
id say we will probably come out and pump the Wallabies and look ok doing it and not get really tested until the NH games, so we are probably not going to find out too much
Even after they got fucking humped, I still have some trepidations that we're entirely capable of playing down to their level and making it a cripple fight.
I recall many occasions where we rise to fight the Boks, only to slump against the Wobs
@canefan said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
id say we will probably come out and pump the Wallabies and look ok doing it and not get really tested until the NH games, so we are probably not going to find out too much
Even after they got fucking humped, I still have some trepidations that we're entirely capable of playing down to their level and making it a cripple fight.
I recall many occasions where we rise to fight the Boks, only to slump against the Wobs
Far more often in the other direction, with the aussies beating bok teams we struggled against surely?
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@canefan said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
id say we will probably come out and pump the Wallabies and look ok doing it and not get really tested until the NH games, so we are probably not going to find out too much
Even after they got fucking humped, I still have some trepidations that we're entirely capable of playing down to their level and making it a cripple fight.
I recall many occasions where we rise to fight the Boks, only to slump against the Wobs
Far more often in the other direction, with the aussies beating bok teams we struggled against surely?
@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@canefan said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
id say we will probably come out and pump the Wallabies and look ok doing it and not get really tested until the NH games, so we are probably not going to find out too much
Even after they got fucking humped, I still have some trepidations that we're entirely capable of playing down to their level and making it a cripple fight.
I recall many occasions where we rise to fight the Boks, only to slump against the Wobs
Far more often in the other direction, with the aussies beating bok teams we struggled against surely?
I can't offer actual hard data, just my recollection which isn't necessarily accurate. Just remember us playing better against SA then not so well against Ozzie. Maybe it was during the years we couldn't win the Bled
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@booboo said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
Is Harry Plummer really seen as a long term test player?
We get seduced into picking players like Mo'unga. With talent in the backline, a steady 10 can work.
I'm not nearly as down on DMac as others; I think he's gone really well over the last few seasons, and really picked his chance to attack. However, who's his backup? BB is going downhill and still thinks he can tuck the ball, run and break free. I'd have no issues with trying a 10 who can drive a team around the paddock, but without obvious flair/X factor.
At the weekend our forwards did enough - it was the backs who let us down. Sometimes you need an unflashy type to set others away.
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@booboo said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
Is Harry Plummer really seen as a long term test player?
We get seduced into picking players like Mo'unga. With talent in the backline, a steady 10 can work.
I'm not nearly as down on DMac as others; I think he's gone really well over the last few seasons, and really picked his chance to attack. However, who's his backup? BB is going downhill and still thinks he can tuck the ball, run and break free. I'd have no issues with trying a 10 who can drive a team around the paddock, but without obvious flair/X factor.
At the weekend our forwards did enough - it was the backs who let us down. Sometimes you need an unflashy type to set others away.
Grant Fox being the ultimate example of that working.
I think the expectation is that Mounga is coming back in the next 12-18 months
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Time to test out fullbacks Love Perofeta
Wings RI Jordan Clarke
Centre Proctor@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
Time to test out fullbacks Love Perofeta
Wings RI Jordan Clarke
Centre ProctorReiko would be a fantastic bench option covering wing and 13. He looked at his best on the wing on Saturday.
I would like to see Proctor given a run at 13 and Love getting game time.
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1 . Williams
2. Taylor
3. Lomax
4. Barrett
5. Vaai
6. Blackadder
7. Savea
8. Sititi
9. Ratima
10. DMac
11. Clarke
12. JB
13. Proctor
14. Jordan
15. Love -
Can't see them picking Love after giving Jordan just one start at the back. Clarke has to be a certainty on the left if fit now. Right is wide open if Jordan stays at fullback. My preference would be to see what Narawa can add, but that isn't going to happen right now.
I'd really like to see that loose forward trio against the Aussies. I think it's well past time to see what we can do with a different style 7 than Cane/Dalton/Jacobson, and equally important with someone other than Ardie at 8.
Hope de Groot is back, him + Williams would be a good pair. At some point it would be good to see what Tosi has got too.
I'd start Aumua for at least one of the tests. Taylor is in great form, but Aumua needs minutes in the test jersey. His super throwing is much better than his test throwing, and that looks to me like nerves - needs time in the saddle.
Midfield to me is the tricky bit. It takes time to build 10-12-13 combinations, and we are certainly not there yet with DM-JB-RI. McKenzie ought to have a combination already with ALB, who ought to have some combination with RI - so that's an option, as would be DM-JB-BP. But then DM-ALB-BP worked well against Fiji - so fuck knows really. -
1 . Williams
2. Taylor
3. Lomax
4. Barrett
5. Vaai
6. Blackadder
7. Savea
8. Sititi
9. Ratima
10. DMac
11. Clarke
12. JB
13. Proctor
14. Jordan
15. Love@BerniesCorner when is de Groot due back? Having Williams or EDG coming off the bench will be a step in the right direction.
Newell needs to up his game. I think he is at risk. Tosi has to be in the mix to bring power off the bench. Unlikely to see Tosí before the EOYT I suppose.
Imagine a trio of Williams, Taukei'aho and Tosí coming on together in the 55th minute.
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1 . Williams
2. Taylor
3. Lomax
4. Barrett
5. Vaai
6. Blackadder
7. Savea
8. Sititi
9. Ratima
10. DMac
11. Clarke
12. JB
13. Proctor
14. Jordan
15. Love@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
1 . Williams
2. Taylor
3. Lomax
4. Barrett
5. Vaai
6. Blackadder
7. Savea
8. Sititi
9. Ratima
10. DMac
11. Clarke
12. JB
13. Proctor
14. Jordan
15. LoveI don't think you can pick a XV in isolation.
You need to cover the bench.
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
Time to test out fullbacks Love Perofeta
Wings RI Jordan Clarke
Centre ProctorReiko would be a fantastic bench option covering wing and 13. He looked at his best on the wing on Saturday.
I would like to see Proctor given a run at 13 and Love getting game time.
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
Time to test out fullbacks Love Perofeta
Wings RI Jordan Clarke
Centre ProctorReiko would be a fantastic bench option covering wing and 13. He looked at his best on the wing on Saturday.
I would like to see Proctor given a run at 13 and Love getting game time.
the idea that some player might actually be ore valuable off the bench is completely foreign to AB coaches...specialists start and utilities players on the bench.....its not rocket surgery
