NZ First Five Crisis
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A shame as Stevenson has the talent if not the application.
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Think this deserves its own thread. New Zealand's first five stocks are the worst they have been in quite some time.
ABs went from Fox to Mehrtens to Carter to Barrett to Mo'unga over a period of 40 years, so no doubt we were spoilt, but think it is getting a bit concerning.
Outside of those guys, we have had the likes of Cruden, Slade, Spencer etc. who filled in intermittently and were still some of the world's best. Even a guy like Lima Sopoaga played only 16 tests - maybe I'm looking at it through Highlanders tinted glasses, but I think if you take his form from 2014-2017, he'd walk into the 10 jersey?
Currently we have DMac, who just is not there is a starting All Blacks first five. Is he the best we have got? Yes, but not a chance are we winning a World Cup with him at 10. A next best option? A 33 year old Beauden Barrett who hasn't been a trusted ABs first five in over half a decade. Our third best option? Harry Plummer...
In 2015, we went to the World Cup with Carter, Barrett and Slade, leaving an injured Cruden and Sopoaga at home - I'd argue that is five better 10s then we have now!
The big concern, is that there isn't much on the horizon. Outside of the current mob, you have Perofeta, Love, Sullivan (all provably better at 15) and Cameron (Not up to it).
The only two young guys with any sort of case are Jacomb and Millar who have 14 Super Rugby games between them, and are surely miles off ABs level. Do you take a gamble on one or both? I think both would have to be in the NZ XV, if not having one of them in the full squad. There is no future in Harry Plummer.
@frugby there's seems to be too many road blocks to players playing. If Super Rugby doesn't expand with top teir teams to give more game time then I would like to see a development grade, just to keep these guys playing, ready for a step up to too SR or Tests.
Too me guys like Sullivan, Burke, Godfrey, have been delayed to develop first five ability with limited Game time.
Also reduce the ABs squad and put those in the ABXV, really get that level going against other countries. -
It is alarming how many tens are simply not getting enough game time at Super level and simply being snapped up by clubs in the Northern Hemisphere. Massive issue, we need to be bringing some of this offshore talent home. Richie Mo is the most extreme example, the three mention by Trig is a real concern.
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@frugby there's seems to be too many road blocks to players playing. If Super Rugby doesn't expand with top teir teams to give more game time then I would like to see a development grade, just to keep these guys playing, ready for a step up to too SR or Tests.
Too me guys like Sullivan, Burke, Godfrey, have been delayed to develop first five ability with limited Game time.
Also reduce the ABs squad and put those in the ABXV, really get that level going against other countries.@BorderJB said in NZ First Five Crisis:
Godfrey
Are you a @Canes4life multi?
Godfrey looked bloody average at 10 when he played there this year, fullback is his current best position. The Canes need to put him in their development team as a 10 to get him more experience.
@Trig None of those 10s have looked AB level, even Ioane who played for the ABs. Of the 3 only Burke appears a real loss outside of depth as someone who could develop into a test 10. Morgan was dross and since making the ABs Ioane has just got shitter and shitter.
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@BorderJB said in NZ First Five Crisis:
Godfrey
Are you a @Canes4life multi?
Godfrey looked bloody average at 10 when he played there this year, fullback is his current best position. The Canes need to put him in their development team as a 10 to get him more experience.
@Trig None of those 10s have looked AB level, even Ioane who played for the ABs. Of the 3 only Burke appears a real loss outside of depth as someone who could develop into a test 10. Morgan was dross and since making the ABs Ioane has just got shitter and shitter.
@Nepia said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@BorderJB said in NZ First Five Crisis:
Godfrey
Are you a @Canes4life multi?
Godfrey looked bloody average at 10 when he played there this year, fullback is his current best position. The Canes need to put him in their development team as a 10 to get him more experience.
@Trig None of those 10s have looked AB level, even Ioane who played for the ABs. Of the 3 only Burke appears a real loss outside of depth as someone who could develop into a test 10. Morgan was dross and since making the ABs Ioane has just got shitter and shitter.
I'm more concerned about the development of the 10s that stay. No one apart from Plummer could be considered an orthodox 10. Unorthodox is the NZ orthodoxy right now
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@BorderJB said in NZ First Five Crisis:
Godfrey
Are you a @Canes4life multi?
Godfrey looked bloody average at 10 when he played there this year, fullback is his current best position. The Canes need to put him in their development team as a 10 to get him more experience.
@Trig None of those 10s have looked AB level, even Ioane who played for the ABs. Of the 3 only Burke appears a real loss outside of depth as someone who could develop into a test 10. Morgan was dross and since making the ABs Ioane has just got shitter and shitter.
@Nepia said in NZ First Five Crisis:
None of those 10s have looked AB level, even Ioane who played for the ABs.
I agree. If all three were still playing NPC in NZ currently Plummer would still be ahead of them in ABs conversations. However, they will look set to get plenty of game time as their teams first 5s and I don't think it'll be long before Burke puts his Scottish or English passports to use because of this.
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@Nepia said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@BorderJB said in NZ First Five Crisis:
Godfrey
Are you a @Canes4life multi?
Godfrey looked bloody average at 10 when he played there this year, fullback is his current best position. The Canes need to put him in their development team as a 10 to get him more experience.
@Trig None of those 10s have looked AB level, even Ioane who played for the ABs. Of the 3 only Burke appears a real loss outside of depth as someone who could develop into a test 10. Morgan was dross and since making the ABs Ioane has just got shitter and shitter.
I'm more concerned about the development of the 10s that stay. No one apart from Plummer could be considered an orthodox 10. Unorthodox is the NZ orthodoxy right now
@canefan said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Nepia said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@BorderJB said in NZ First Five Crisis:
Godfrey
Are you a @Canes4life multi?
Godfrey looked bloody average at 10 when he played there this year, fullback is his current best position. The Canes need to put him in their development team as a 10 to get him more experience.
@Trig None of those 10s have looked AB level, even Ioane who played for the ABs. Of the 3 only Burke appears a real loss outside of depth as someone who could develop into a test 10. Morgan was dross and since making the ABs Ioane has just got shitter and shitter.
I'm more concerned about the development of the 10s that stay. No one apart from Plummer could be considered an orthodox 10. Unorthodox is the NZ orthodoxy right now
Of those one's who've left only Burke seems orthodox. McClutchie is fairly orthodox and he can't get a run at the Canes, so maybe you're right.
Even if Mo was still here we'd have two unorthodox 10s to complain about and Plummer likely wouldn't get a look in.
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@Nepia said in NZ First Five Crisis:
None of those 10s have looked AB level, even Ioane who played for the ABs.
I agree. If all three were still playing NPC in NZ currently Plummer would still be ahead of them in ABs conversations. However, they will look set to get plenty of game time as their teams first 5s and I don't think it'll be long before Burke puts his Scottish or English passports to use because of this.
@Trig said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Nepia said in NZ First Five Crisis:
None of those 10s have looked AB level, even Ioane who played for the ABs.
I agree. If all three were still playing NPC in NZ currently Plummer would still be ahead of them in ABs conversations. However, they will look set to get plenty of game time as their teams first 5s and I don't think it'll be long before Burke puts his Scottish or English passports to use because of this.
Considering Burke is from the Crusaders maybe he got the word from Razor that he was unlikely to get a shot? Seems a weird time for him to go otherwise.
Why don't the Crusaders 10s like Razor, they both ran away from him.
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@dogmeat said in NZ First Five Crisis:
There were only 13 tests between Fox and Mehrts - but it seemed like an eternity.
Do people think Fox would get a look in today? I doubt he'd make Super Rugby TBH. Doesn't fit NZ DNA and therein lies the problem. Doing the fundamentals right 99% of the time and playing the percentages doesn't jiggle NZ rugby's ovaries nowadays.
The Fox coming up through the NZ system today would be a markedly different beast, he'd still have all the control, but he'd have more muscle/size and the running game he had as a youngster wouldn't be as easily dispensed with.
I think talent is talent, and Fox had it, he was a symptom of his era.
@Nepia Fox had massive mental fortitude and intelligence, could land the ball on a dime.
Only thing missing top end speed. -
@Nepia Fox had massive mental fortitude and intelligence, could land the ball on a dime.
Only thing missing top end speed.@BerniesCorner said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Nepia Fox had massive mental fortitude and intelligence, could land the ball on a dime.
Only thing missing top end speed.Laser like accuracy when kicking from goal too
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@canefan said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Nepia said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@BorderJB said in NZ First Five Crisis:
Godfrey
Are you a @Canes4life multi?
Godfrey looked bloody average at 10 when he played there this year, fullback is his current best position. The Canes need to put him in their development team as a 10 to get him more experience.
@Trig None of those 10s have looked AB level, even Ioane who played for the ABs. Of the 3 only Burke appears a real loss outside of depth as someone who could develop into a test 10. Morgan was dross and since making the ABs Ioane has just got shitter and shitter.
I'm more concerned about the development of the 10s that stay. No one apart from Plummer could be considered an orthodox 10. Unorthodox is the NZ orthodoxy right now
Of those one's who've left only Burke seems orthodox. McClutchie is fairly orthodox and he can't get a run at the Canes, so maybe you're right.
Even if Mo was still here we'd have two unorthodox 10s to complain about and Plummer likely wouldn't get a look in.
@Nepia said in NZ First Five Crisis:
McClutchie is fairly orthodox and he can't get a run at the Canes, so maybe you're right.
A shame as McClutchie is a great name for an international 10.
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@Nepia Fox had massive mental fortitude and intelligence, could land the ball on a dime.
Only thing missing top end speed.@BerniesCorner said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Nepia Fox had massive mental fortitude and intelligence, could land the ball on a dime.
Only thing missing top end speed.and um tackling. And physicality. And elusiveness. And agility. But apart from that, all good!
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@BorderJB said in NZ First Five Crisis:
Godfrey
Are you a @Canes4life multi?
Godfrey looked bloody average at 10 when he played there this year, fullback is his current best position. The Canes need to put him in their development team as a 10 to get him more experience.
@Trig None of those 10s have looked AB level, even Ioane who played for the ABs. Of the 3 only Burke appears a real loss outside of depth as someone who could develop into a test 10. Morgan was dross and since making the ABs Ioane has just got shitter and shitter.
@Nepia haha nah nah, I was just using them as examples, I guess Ruben Love would be another as he could have gone 10 instead of 15 in another team. But had Godfrey had playing time in a B team his only game in the top level may not have been bad.
We just need them as a pocket 10 not Fullback 10. -
RE-OPENS THREAD
I can't believe I'm saying this but Plummer just has to have a crack. DMac is not the one.
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
RE-OPENS THREAD
I can't believe I'm saying this but Plummer just has to have a crack. DMac is not the one.
If Plummer, at 26, is "the one", I'll eat my hat. I'm not unhappy that Plummer is in the squad, because he would be the next best, but that's it. There's no upward path from where he is now. We've all seen him play, and it's solid.
Every good first-five (or halfback for that matter) gets to their peak young. Usually very young. I remember watching Dan Carter, Aaron Cruden and DMc all standing out at age 21.
So when we get a decent replacement for DMc, it will be some tyro, barely out of the Under 20s. Like all the other decent first-fives (and halfbacks) we've had. Mo'unga took a long time to crack the ABs, relatively, and he was in the squad at 23.
The idea that we are going to spend a couple of years displacing DMc so a guy who is never going to be close to as good as him can get game time is risible.
The guy Plummer reminds me of is Stephen Donald. Who looked really good at SR level, but also took a long time to get international duty, because that was his level -- and really only played when multiple injuries struck.
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@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
RE-OPENS THREAD
I can't believe I'm saying this but Plummer just has to have a crack. DMac is not the one.
If Plummer, at 26, is "the one", I'll eat my hat. I'm not unhappy that Plummer is in the squad, because he would be the next best, but that's it. There's no upward path from where he is now. We've all seen him play, and it's solid.
Every good first-five (or halfback for that matter) gets to their peak young. Usually very young. I remember watching Dan Carter, Aaron Cruden and DMc all standing out at age 21.
So when we get a decent replacement for DMc, it will be some tyro, barely out of the Under 20s. Like all the other decent first-fives (and halfbacks) we've had. Mo'unga took a long time to crack the ABs, relatively, and he was in the squad at 23.
The idea that we are going to spend a couple of years displacing DMc so a guy who is never going to be close to as good as him can get game time is risible.
The guy Plummer reminds me of is Stephen Donald. Who looked really good at SR level, but also took a long time to get international duty, because that was his level -- and really only played when multiple injuries struck.
@Chester-Draws said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
RE-OPENS THREAD
I can't believe I'm saying this but Plummer just has to have a crack. DMac is not the one.
If Plummer, at 26, is "the one", I'll eat my hat. I'm not unhappy that Plummer is in the squad, because he would be the next best, but that's it. There's no upward path from where he is now. We've all seen him play, and it's solid.
Every good first-five (or halfback for that matter) gets to their peak young. Usually very young. I remember watching Dan Carter, Aaron Cruden and DMc all standing out at age 21.
So when we get a decent replacement for DMc, it will be some tyro, barely out of the Under 20s. Like all the other decent first-fives (and halfbacks) we've had. Mo'unga took a long time to crack the ABs, relatively, and he was in the squad at 23.
The idea that we are going to spend a couple of years displacing DMc so a guy who is never going to be any better than him can get game time is risible.
The guy Plummer reminds me of is Stephen Donald. Who looked really good at SR level, but also took a long time to get international duty, because that was his level -- and really only played when multiple injuries struck.
You may be right about Plummer. But wouldn't you take the chance just in case he can be good, and start him for a half in a dead rubber vs Aussie on Saturday?
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@Chester-Draws said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
RE-OPENS THREAD
I can't believe I'm saying this but Plummer just has to have a crack. DMac is not the one.
If Plummer, at 26, is "the one", I'll eat my hat. I'm not unhappy that Plummer is in the squad, because he would be the next best, but that's it. There's no upward path from where he is now. We've all seen him play, and it's solid.
Every good first-five (or halfback for that matter) gets to their peak young. Usually very young. I remember watching Dan Carter, Aaron Cruden and DMc all standing out at age 21.
So when we get a decent replacement for DMc, it will be some tyro, barely out of the Under 20s. Like all the other decent first-fives (and halfbacks) we've had. Mo'unga took a long time to crack the ABs, relatively, and he was in the squad at 23.
The idea that we are going to spend a couple of years displacing DMc so a guy who is never going to be any better than him can get game time is risible.
The guy Plummer reminds me of is Stephen Donald. Who looked really good at SR level, but also took a long time to get international duty, because that was his level -- and really only played when multiple injuries struck.
You may be right about Plummer. But wouldn't you take the chance just in case he can be good, and start him for a half in a dead rubber vs Aussie on Saturday?
@canefan said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Chester-Draws said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
RE-OPENS THREAD
I can't believe I'm saying this but Plummer just has to have a crack. DMac is not the one.
If Plummer, at 26, is "the one", I'll eat my hat. I'm not unhappy that Plummer is in the squad, because he would be the next best, but that's it. There's no upward path from where he is now. We've all seen him play, and it's solid.
Every good first-five (or halfback for that matter) gets to their peak young. Usually very young. I remember watching Dan Carter, Aaron Cruden and DMc all standing out at age 21.
So when we get a decent replacement for DMc, it will be some tyro, barely out of the Under 20s. Like all the other decent first-fives (and halfbacks) we've had. Mo'unga took a long time to crack the ABs, relatively, and he was in the squad at 23.
The idea that we are going to spend a couple of years displacing DMc so a guy who is never going to be any better than him can get game time is risible.
The guy Plummer reminds me of is Stephen Donald. Who looked really good at SR level, but also took a long time to get international duty, because that was his level -- and really only played when multiple injuries struck.
You may be right about Plummer. But wouldn't you take the chance just in case he can be good, and start him for a half in a dead rubber vs Aussie on Saturday?
I don't think this is a dead rubber at all. The ABs need to fix their end of game issues, and they can only do that by taking games seriously. Aussie also desperately need a win, so will go in all fired up.
I've no issues if Plummer starts in a minor game on the end of year tour. We can't leave him on ice forever.
But the idea that he has any chance of being substantially better than DMc is rather wishful thinking.
