NZ First Five Crisis
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@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@chucknz said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp yet dmac doesn't have a better test or super record, why have different criteria?
Do you answer your own question with Razor and Mounga, they won more than any combo of 10 and coach, so either Foster couldn't get best out of Mounga or Dmac can't work with Razor
or, Test and Super ain't remotely the same sport any more.
I was very careful to say DMac will finish a better player. Wait 4 years and let's see. And quality may not just be on wins - RM got a rolls royce ride with that forward pack in Super. He was a cheat code at times, but it doesn't transfer to Tests.
Let's wait and see.
I don't agree he always got an armchair ride with his forward pack, the Chiefs pack was definitely stronger in 2023, it was more that with his insane vision and footwork he could literally dance around the weaker Super Rugby defenses but less weaknesses found in the top-tier international defenses and margins of error to exploit.
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@darylmitchell footwork yes, vision not so much.
@reprobate said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@darylmitchell footwork yes, vision not so much.
Heads up vision for his running game was outstanding and passing vision was good.
Let down by his ability with the boot at times. -
I know it wasn't always the way, but DC often had the luxury of the weapon Nonu became outside him, while DC was in a league of his own, it meant Nonu was also a threat, so gave DC that extra split second of time.
Our recent 10s havent had the luxury of a Nonu or even SBW running outside them.
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The main problem Dmac has at the ABs is weak phase play from the forwards. His contestable bomb is also too telegraphed.
JB had been very up and down on attack this year and had lacked chemistry with 10 and 13.
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I know it wasn't always the way, but DC often had the luxury of the weapon Nonu became outside him, while DC was in a league of his own, it meant Nonu was also a threat, so gave DC that extra split second of time.
Our recent 10s havent had the luxury of a Nonu or even SBW running outside them.
@taniwharugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
I know it wasn't always the way, but DC often had the luxury of the weapon Nonu became outside him, while DC was in a league of his own, it meant Nonu was also a threat, so gave DC that extra split second of time.
Our recent 10s havent had the luxury of a Nonu or even SBW running outside them.
The 2024 ABs are a homeless man's 2015 ABs
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@canefan said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@gt12 I'd say Jordie has a big kick and they are not utilizing it.
Probably because it's an area weapon. Some precision would be nice.
@antipodean did anyone else notice the Black Ferns got more distance on their kicks to touch from penalties than Jordie did when playing against the Boks?
I know the Boks have wingers that mean you need to clear the side line, but Jordie was giving up 25m or so from what I would expect from him. Lineouts from penalties were taking place before or on the 22m line, whereas they should have been closer to the 5m line to really put pressure on the try line.
If you have the chance to kick deep into opposition territory, you need to take it. On this, it reminded me of rugby league touch finders.
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Jordies line kicking is sloppy at times.
James Lowe seems to nail it every time.
Guys like Stevenson and Sullivan have better exit kicks generally.
Roigards exits were a weapon but I'm not sure the box kick as is easy now days with that new rule.
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I don't know why Jordie takes the line kicks. DMac doesn't have any trouble with them for the Chiefs so why doesn't he do it? Do they have comps at training and Jordie kicks longer, then goes and fires pop guns in the actual games.
@brodean Lowe's long punt was a thing of beauty. Could attack too. Wonder if he would have met the current lot's both sides of the ball requirements?
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I don't know why Jordie takes the line kicks. DMac doesn't have any trouble with them for the Chiefs so why doesn't he do it? Do they have comps at training and Jordie kicks longer, then goes and fires pop guns in the actual games.
@brodean Lowe's long punt was a thing of beauty. Could attack too. Wonder if he would have met the current lot's both sides of the ball requirements?
@Nepia said in NZ First Five Crisis:
I don't know why Jordie takes the line kicks. DMac doesn't have any trouble with them for the Chiefs so why doesn't he do it? Do they have comps at training and Jordie kicks longer, then goes and fires pop guns in the actual games.
@brodean Lowe's long punt was a thing of beauty. Could attack too. Wonder if he would have met the current lot's both sides of the ball requirements?
Jordie takes line kicks and DMac takes penalty shots from 45m +
Get with the program dude
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@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@dogmeat said in NZ First Five Crisis:
Doing the fundamentals right 99% of the time and playing the percentages doesn't jiggle NZ rugby's ovaries nowadays.
And that's why we don't win as many Tests anymore. Rugby is about doing the fundamentals right 99% of the time much more than it is about 3 second miracle plays that go viral on TicTok.
We used to pick Fox over Botica, Merhts over Spencer. Because the best AB 10s were outstanding game managers, with accurate kicking games "off the tee" and in general play. DC was the Unicorn. And now I agree the pendulum has swung too far the other way. And that is why I want to at least see a throwback like Plummer have a go. Nothing wrong with a guy who is very good at kicking goals and kicking for territory, who is happy to pass the ball to his outsides most of the time but isn't afraid to have a dig every once in a while
@canefan Some time between the 2015 World Cup and the 2017 Lions series, Steve Hansen and Steve Tew decided our DNA was to be the Great Entertainers and we have had an unbalanced game plan and set of selection criteria even since.
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
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@canefan Some time between the 2015 World Cup and the 2017 Lions series, Steve Hansen and Steve Tew decided our DNA was to be the Great Entertainers and we have had an unbalanced game plan and set of selection criteria even since.
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
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@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
It's a little unfair to not point out that he was mentally limited too.
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@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
It's a little unfair to not point out that he was mentally limited too.
@reprobate said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
It's a little unfair to not point out that he was mentally limited too.
he was a fucking rugby genius at times. Fair play to him, he implemented the gameplan that took them to number 1 in the world.
Still filth though, dropping the elbow into Beaudy in Dublin. Never forget!
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@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
How so ? Big, strong, pretty quick and abrasive ?
Certainly more physical than most 10s.
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@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
How so ? Big, strong, pretty quick and abrasive ?
Certainly more physical than most 10s.
@MN5 said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
How so ? Big, strong, pretty quick and abrasive ?
Certainly more physical than most 10s.
You'd put him behind Carter, Cruden, Mo'unga, DMac in terms of physical gifts though - I don't think he was quick - but really smart rugby brain and played the quarterback role brilliantly.
HOnest question: is my recollection that wrong? I did not think he had much going for him physically
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Seems most people are happier with DMac than I am, and are also keen to see Plummer to get a crack. I still maintain that neither of them are close to that superstar level though, so my question remains who is the next star? Have they debuted at First Class level yet?
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@MN5 said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
How so ? Big, strong, pretty quick and abrasive ?
Certainly more physical than most 10s.
You'd put him behind Carter, Cruden, Mo'unga, DMac in terms of physical gifts though - I don't think he was quick - but really smart rugby brain and played the quarterback role brilliantly.
HOnest question: is my recollection that wrong? I did not think he had much going for him physically
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@MN5 said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
How so ? Big, strong, pretty quick and abrasive ?
Certainly more physical than most 10s.
You'd put him behind Carter, Cruden, Mo'unga, DMac in terms of physical gifts though - I don't think he was quick - but really smart rugby brain and played the quarterback role brilliantly.
HOnest question: is my recollection that wrong? I did not think he had much going for him physically
I said pretty quick
Yes, those guys listed would all be quicker I’d imagine….
But you mentioned physical so I instantly defaulted to the Fox/Merhts/O’Gara type 10 in my head.
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Seems most people are happier with DMac than I am, and are also keen to see Plummer to get a crack. I still maintain that neither of them are close to that superstar level though, so my question remains who is the next star? Have they debuted at First Class level yet?
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
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@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
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@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
Smith??
Pollard is overrated as a 10 - does the basics very well but isn't a great playmaker by any stretch.
Aside from the missed kicks at goal, McKenzie was fine in that second match. He didn't look any worse than Mo'unga has previously looked against the Springboks.
Though Mo'unga was not on the same level as a 10 as Cruden, Carter etc (and, frankly, neither was Barrett), so that doesn't really counter your overall point.
