All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham
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@gt12 said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Duluth said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
6/2 split from England. I wonder if NZ will be tempted to follow given how they have faded late in matches
They can't really do it well with Barrett at 10 and Jordan at 15 as we need 9, 10, midfield cover.
I wouldn't pick this, but if they had Clarke, Jordan, Dmac back three, we could go to a 6-2 bench with 10/15 cover and can carry ALB on the bench.
The secondary issue though is that even if we do go with a 6-2, Scott Barrett is not better at 6 to end the game, and our loosie mix is still a mess, so figuring out who to sub is hard when we have two untouchables there in Barrett and Savea.
We could start Finau and bring on a Sititi alongside Pat T with another lock (e.g., Lord, Darry) but that requires Barrett at 6 assuming he won't be subbed.
Edit: If we started Barrett at 6 to finish at lock, with Savea and Cane, then we could roll on Finau and Sititi to finish alongside Savea. We could run out Pat T alongside Vaii to start and bring on Lord to finish alongside Barrett.
That doesn't sound that flash either, we have too many untouchables for a 6-2 to work.
Tupou Vaa'i can move to 6, looks more mobile than SB to me.
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@gt12 said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Duluth said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
6/2 split from England. I wonder if NZ will be tempted to follow given how they have faded late in matches
They can't really do it well with Barrett at 10 and Jordan at 15 as we need 9, 10, midfield cover.
I wouldn't pick this, but if they had Clarke, Jordan, Dmac back three, we could go to a 6-2 bench with 10/15 cover and can carry ALB on the bench.
The secondary issue though is that even if we do go with a 6-2, Scott Barrett is not better at 6 to end the game, and our loosie mix is still a mess, so figuring out who to sub is hard when we have two untouchables there in Barrett and Savea.
We could start Finau and bring on a Sititi alongside Pat T with another lock (e.g., Lord, Darry) but that requires Barrett at 6 assuming he won't be subbed.
Edit: If we started Barrett at 6 to finish at lock, with Savea and Cane, then we could roll on Finau and Sititi to finish alongside Savea. We could run out Pat T alongside Vaii to start and bring on Lord to finish alongside Barrett.
That doesn't sound that flash either, we have too many untouchables for a 6-2 to work.
Tupou Vaa'i can move to 6, looks more mobile than SB to me.
I agree, but that would three untouchables then.
The issue we have is that both Savea and Barrett aren’t subbed. Adding another makes a 6-2 even harder.
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As I mentioned here https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/post/997305 if they start Finau, Cane and Savea, then the bench can have a replacement lock, Sititi (who has played at 6 a couple of times now) and Lakai.
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As I mentioned here https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/post/997305 if they start Finau, Cane and Savea, then the bench can have a replacement lock, Sititi (who has played at 6 a couple of times now) and Lakai.
@antipodean said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
As I mentioned here https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/post/997305 if they start Finau, Cane and Savea, then the bench can have a replacement lock, Sititi (who has played at 6 a couple of times now) and Lakai.
you might be right, that might well be what they do.
But it seems hard on Sititi who has been (arguably) our best loosie. -
@gt12 said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Duluth said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
6/2 split from England. I wonder if NZ will be tempted to follow given how they have faded late in matches
They can't really do it well with Barrett at 10 and Jordan at 15 as we need 9, 10, midfield cover.
I wouldn't pick this, but if they had Clarke, Jordan, Dmac back three, we could go to a 6-2 bench with 10/15 cover and can carry ALB on the bench.
The secondary issue though is that even if we do go with a 6-2, Scott Barrett is not better at 6 to end the game, and our loosie mix is still a mess, so figuring out who to sub is hard when we have two untouchables there in Barrett and Savea.
We could start Finau and bring on a Sititi alongside Pat T with another lock (e.g., Lord, Darry) but that requires Barrett at 6 assuming he won't be subbed.
Edit: If we started Barrett at 6 to finish at lock, with Savea and Cane, then we could roll on Finau and Sititi to finish alongside Savea. We could run out Pat T alongside Vaii to start and bring on Lord to finish alongside Barrett.
That doesn't sound that flash either, we have too many untouchables for a 6-2 to work.
Tupou Vaa'i can move to 6, looks more mobile than SB to me.
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@gt12 said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Duluth said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
6/2 split from England. I wonder if NZ will be tempted to follow given how they have faded late in matches
They can't really do it well with Barrett at 10 and Jordan at 15 as we need 9, 10, midfield cover.
I wouldn't pick this, but if they had Clarke, Jordan, Dmac back three, we could go to a 6-2 bench with 10/15 cover and can carry ALB on the bench.
The secondary issue though is that even if we do go with a 6-2, Scott Barrett is not better at 6 to end the game, and our loosie mix is still a mess, so figuring out who to sub is hard when we have two untouchables there in Barrett and Savea.
We could start Finau and bring on a Sititi alongside Pat T with another lock (e.g., Lord, Darry) but that requires Barrett at 6 assuming he won't be subbed.
Edit: If we started Barrett at 6 to finish at lock, with Savea and Cane, then we could roll on Finau and Sititi to finish alongside Savea. We could run out Pat T alongside Vaii to start and bring on Lord to finish alongside Barrett.
That doesn't sound that flash either, we have too many untouchables for a 6-2 to work.
Tupou Vaa'i can move to 6, looks more mobile than SB to me.
Tupou Vaa'i played 6 in that disaster against South Africa last year and looked absolute dogshit.
This year he has settled in, and been comfortably our best lock, where he plays all his code. And we want to fucking move him?
Even worse, just so we can keep Barrett on the field?
How about our coaches put fucking big boy pants on and be proactive and modern with our subs. The captain is allowed to be subbed off if the other guy is going better.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@gt12 said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Duluth said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
6/2 split from England. I wonder if NZ will be tempted to follow given how they have faded late in matches
They can't really do it well with Barrett at 10 and Jordan at 15 as we need 9, 10, midfield cover.
I wouldn't pick this, but if they had Clarke, Jordan, Dmac back three, we could go to a 6-2 bench with 10/15 cover and can carry ALB on the bench.
The secondary issue though is that even if we do go with a 6-2, Scott Barrett is not better at 6 to end the game, and our loosie mix is still a mess, so figuring out who to sub is hard when we have two untouchables there in Barrett and Savea.
We could start Finau and bring on a Sititi alongside Pat T with another lock (e.g., Lord, Darry) but that requires Barrett at 6 assuming he won't be subbed.
Edit: If we started Barrett at 6 to finish at lock, with Savea and Cane, then we could roll on Finau and Sititi to finish alongside Savea. We could run out Pat T alongside Vaii to start and bring on Lord to finish alongside Barrett.
That doesn't sound that flash either, we have too many untouchables for a 6-2 to work.
Tupou Vaa'i can move to 6, looks more mobile than SB to me.
Tupou Vaa'i played 6 in that disaster against South Africa last year and looked absolute dogshit.
This year he has settled in, and been comfortably our best lock, where he plays all his code. And we want to fucking move him?
Even worse, just so we can keep Barrett on the field?
How about our coaches put fucking big boy pants on and be proactive and modern with our subs. The captain is allowed to be subbed off if the other guy is going better.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@gt12 said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Duluth said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
6/2 split from England. I wonder if NZ will be tempted to follow given how they have faded late in matches
They can't really do it well with Barrett at 10 and Jordan at 15 as we need 9, 10, midfield cover.
I wouldn't pick this, but if they had Clarke, Jordan, Dmac back three, we could go to a 6-2 bench with 10/15 cover and can carry ALB on the bench.
The secondary issue though is that even if we do go with a 6-2, Scott Barrett is not better at 6 to end the game, and our loosie mix is still a mess, so figuring out who to sub is hard when we have two untouchables there in Barrett and Savea.
We could start Finau and bring on a Sititi alongside Pat T with another lock (e.g., Lord, Darry) but that requires Barrett at 6 assuming he won't be subbed.
Edit: If we started Barrett at 6 to finish at lock, with Savea and Cane, then we could roll on Finau and Sititi to finish alongside Savea. We could run out Pat T alongside Vaii to start and bring on Lord to finish alongside Barrett.
That doesn't sound that flash either, we have too many untouchables for a 6-2 to work.
Tupou Vaa'i can move to 6, looks more mobile than SB to me.
Tupou Vaa'i played 6 in that disaster against South Africa last year and looked absolute dogshit.
This year he has settled in, and been comfortably our best lock, where he plays all his code. And we want to fucking move him?
Even worse, just so we can keep Barrett on the field?
How about our coaches put fucking big boy pants on and be proactive and modern with our subs. The captain is allowed to be subbed off if the other guy is going better.
I don't want to move him, I'd rather start him (at lock, I think I said he may have been our best 2024 lock). Just saying in an emergency..
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@gt12 said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Duluth said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
6/2 split from England. I wonder if NZ will be tempted to follow given how they have faded late in matches
They can't really do it well with Barrett at 10 and Jordan at 15 as we need 9, 10, midfield cover.
I wouldn't pick this, but if they had Clarke, Jordan, Dmac back three, we could go to a 6-2 bench with 10/15 cover and can carry ALB on the bench.
The secondary issue though is that even if we do go with a 6-2, Scott Barrett is not better at 6 to end the game, and our loosie mix is still a mess, so figuring out who to sub is hard when we have two untouchables there in Barrett and Savea.
We could start Finau and bring on a Sititi alongside Pat T with another lock (e.g., Lord, Darry) but that requires Barrett at 6 assuming he won't be subbed.
Edit: If we started Barrett at 6 to finish at lock, with Savea and Cane, then we could roll on Finau and Sititi to finish alongside Savea. We could run out Pat T alongside Vaii to start and bring on Lord to finish alongside Barrett.
That doesn't sound that flash either, we have too many untouchables for a 6-2 to work.
Tupou Vaa'i can move to 6, looks more mobile than SB to me.
Tupou Vaa'i played 6 in that disaster against South Africa last year and looked absolute dogshit.
This year he has settled in, and been comfortably our best lock, where he plays all his code. And we want to fucking move him?
Even worse, just so we can keep Barrett on the field?
How about our coaches put fucking big boy pants on and be proactive and modern with our subs. The captain is allowed to be subbed off if the other guy is going better.
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That's exactly what needs to happen.
The point I'm trying to make is that their capability to do anything is currently fucked by their insistence on keeping on these two untouchables for the 80.@gt12 said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
That's exactly what needs to happen.
The point I'm trying to make is that their capability to do anything is currently fucked by their insistence on keeping on these two untouchables for the 80.oh i completely agree. And it's worse because Savea and Barrett are playing pretty average rugby, while those around them play better (ok not Cane v Australia) so they keep them on until they are fucked, which gives you 10 unproductive minutes from them, and your replacements no time to get in to the game.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
That's exactly what needs to happen.
The point I'm trying to make is that their capability to do anything is currently fucked by their insistence on keeping on these two untouchables for the 80.oh i completely agree. And it's worse because Savea and Barrett are playing pretty average rugby, while those around them play better (ok not Cane v Australia) so they keep them on until they are fucked, which gives you 10 unproductive minutes from them, and your replacements no time to get in to the game.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@gt12 said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
That's exactly what needs to happen.
The point I'm trying to make is that their capability to do anything is currently fucked by their insistence on keeping on these two untouchables for the 80.oh i completely agree. And it's worse because Savea and Barrett are playing pretty average rugby, while those around them play better (ok not Cane v Australia) so they keep them on until they are fucked, which gives you 10 unproductive minutes from them, and your replacements no time to get in to the game.
Don't get me started on them running some guys into the ground and giving others meaningless minutes where they can't make an impact.
The innovation is coming. Surely.
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@sparky said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Jet Yeah, some genius decided the All Blacks must have a "League-style 10" and made that the great shibboleth of New Zealand Rugby, when a 10, who can catch, pass, kick, tackle and above all make the correct decisions under pressure, is what we really need.
As I've said before, it's the hangover from the Dan Carter era. Too much focus on the spectacular part of his game and not enough on the fact that DC did all the fundamentals of 10 play exceptionally well
@canefan said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@sparky said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Jet Yeah, some genius decided the All Blacks must have a "League-style 10" and made that the great shibboleth of New Zealand Rugby, when a 10, who can catch, pass, kick, tackle and above all make the correct decisions under pressure, is what we really need.
As I've said before, it's the hangover from the Dan Carter era. Too much focus on the spectacular part of his game and not enough on the fact that DC did all the fundamentals of 10 play exceptionally well
I cannot upvote this enough. I also agree the BB over cruden legacy is also being felt....
Can't recall a game where BB just commanded the game around the park like DC and Cruden could. #defensivebombsforthewin
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Someone was leaving big holes around the ruck vs Japan. Was it the pattern, was it Cane, or someone else?
@canefan said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Someone was leaving big holes around the ruck vs Japan. Was it the pattern, was it Cane, or someone else?
Props imo
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As I mentioned here https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/post/997305 if they start Finau, Cane and Savea, then the bench can have a replacement lock, Sititi (who has played at 6 a couple of times now) and Lakai.
@antipodean said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
As I mentioned here https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/post/997305 if they start Finau, Cane and Savea, then the bench can have a replacement lock, Sititi (who has played at 6 a couple of times now) and Lakai.
Why not start Sititi/Savea at 7/8 in whichever order, and Finau at 6 with Cane on the bench. Fresh experienced player on late, and the best players getting the most minutes.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
As I mentioned here https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/post/997305 if they start Finau, Cane and Savea, then the bench can have a replacement lock, Sititi (who has played at 6 a couple of times now) and Lakai.
Why not start Sititi/Savea at 7/8 in whichever order, and Finau at 6 with Cane on the bench. Fresh experienced player on late, and the best players getting the most minutes.
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@antipodean said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
As I mentioned here https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/post/997305 if they start Finau, Cane and Savea, then the bench can have a replacement lock, Sititi (who has played at 6 a couple of times now) and Lakai.
Why not start Sititi/Savea at 7/8 in whichever order, and Finau at 6 with Cane on the bench. Fresh experienced player on late, and the best players getting the most minutes.
There isn't an alternative universe where this coaching group is going to do that for this weekend.
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Where is that Landers guy and the starting backline for England? He's a bit behind this week.... it's already Wednesday!
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Where is that Landers guy and the starting backline for England? He's a bit behind this week.... it's already Wednesday!
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Where is that Landers guy and the starting backline for England? He's a bit behind this week.... it's already Wednesday!
I’m trying. UK to NZ time difference isn’t our friend. Will be straight in here if I manage to get it. Will try for the AB XV too.
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I actually like the idea of McKenzie off the bench. If used correctly he could really make a big difference.
Unfortunately the other utility back bench role seems to rotate between a guy who never looks good off the bench in ALB and a guy who hasn't been in form in 2 years in Havili.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
I actually like the idea of McKenzie off the bench. If used correctly he could really make a big difference.
Except he'll be put in when the game is mostly gone and will try things that will likely fail and everyone will complain he doesn't suit test rugby.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
I actually like the idea of McKenzie off the bench. If used correctly he could really make a big difference.
Except he'll be put in when the game is mostly gone and will try things that will likely fail and everyone will complain he doesn't suit test rugby.
@Nepia said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
I actually like the idea of McKenzie off the bench. If used correctly he could really make a big difference.
Except he'll be put in when the game is mostly gone and will try things that will likely fail and everyone will complain he doesn't suit test rugby.
Against Japan he was threading the ball around the backline quite well I thought.
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Team I think they will pick. Jordie Barrett's fitness is the major uncertainty.
1 Williams
2 Taylor
3 Lomax
4 Barrett
5 Vaa'i
6 Sititi
7 Cane
8 Savea9 Ratima
10 Barrett
11 Clarke
12 ALB
13 Ioane
14 Reece
15 Jordan16 Aumua
17 de Groot
18 Tosi
19 Tuipulotu
20 Finau
21 TJP
22 Havili
23 McKenzie
