All Blacks 2025
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2025:
I fear Robertson is John Hart 2.0. Except Hart inherited a great side and therefore enjoyed two illustrious years despite himself.
I hope NZR don't indulge Razor to the extent Eddie Tonks did Hart or we will see Mounga steering a sinking ship.
I'd say Hart was a far riskier coach.
He took big risks as a Blues coach but as a Blues coach he was pretty successful.
Not many seem to be giving him credit for promoting a young Michael Jones, for example. I vaguely recall concern Jones would be too small for the ABs. That concern didn't last long.Wait what .... Let's set aside that the Blues didn't exist at the time, but even blind freddie would have promoted MJ to the Auckland team. He was a 6 ft 1 95kg loosie in the 1980s, who considered him too small?
I think @nostrildamus is still drunk. This call is utter madness. 100kg loosies in that era were considered huge. According to my All Black Coffee mug Buck Shelford was 93kg
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2025:
I fear Robertson is John Hart 2.0. Except Hart inherited a great side and therefore enjoyed two illustrious years despite himself.
I hope NZR don't indulge Razor to the extent Eddie Tonks did Hart or we will see Mounga steering a sinking ship.
I'd say Hart was a far riskier coach.
He took big risks as a Blues coach but as a Blues coach he was pretty successful.
Not many seem to be giving him credit for promoting a young Michael Jones, for example. I vaguely recall concern Jones would be too small for the ABs. That concern didn't last long.Wait what .... Let's set aside that the Blues didn't exist at the time, but even blind freddie would have promoted MJ to the Auckland team. He was a 6 ft 1 95kg loosie in the 1980s, who considered him too small?
I think @nostrildamus is still drunk. This call is utter madness. 100kg loosies in that era were considered huge. According to my All Black Coffee mug Buck Shelford was 93kg
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/dieting-brings-back-buck/PYBQQ2QA47Q4L3VOO2KOCPYUZY/
"Since then Shelford, 52, has shed 10kg off his 130kg frame and his weight is still dropping. His goal is to lose a further 10kg which will put him back at the weight he carried at his peak with the All Blacks more than 20 years ago." -
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
@Tim said in All Blacks 2025:
As a bulked-up Sotutu works through the recovery process from knee surgery on November 1 (with a 12-week return to play, he’s expected back around season kickoff in ‘25), you ask if he’s been soured by his treatment from the national selectors.
Pretty good interview with him. open and honest.
I hope he plays the house down in super so he has to be picked.
Yeah I agree.
Maybe I am wrong but a trio of Sititi Lakai and Sotutu with Ardie off the bench (or starting at 7 with Lakai on the bench) would look pretty strong.I don't see the value in Sotutu with Lakai and Sititi already there, a better mix would be Sititi, Papali'i, Lakai, better defensively and at the ruck. it has everything you need. Savea on bench.
TBH your trio looks less strong than @nostrildamus's so it's likely Razor will go that way.
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
@Tim said in All Blacks 2025:
As a bulked-up Sotutu works through the recovery process from knee surgery on November 1 (with a 12-week return to play, he’s expected back around season kickoff in ‘25), you ask if he’s been soured by his treatment from the national selectors.
Pretty good interview with him. open and honest.
I hope he plays the house down in super so he has to be picked.
Yeah I agree.
Maybe I am wrong but a trio of Sititi Lakai and Sotutu with Ardie off the bench (or starting at 7 with Lakai on the bench) would look pretty strong.I don't see the value in Sotutu with Lakai and Sititi already there, a better mix would be Sititi, Papali'i, Lakai, better defensively and at the ruck. it has everything you need. Savea on bench.
TBH your trio looks less strong than @nostrildamus's so it's likely Razor will go that way.
Bles were far worse off without Papali'i, I remember that loss to Saders his omission was the difference, they definitely wouldn't have lost if he'd played.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
@Tim said in All Blacks 2025:
As a bulked-up Sotutu works through the recovery process from knee surgery on November 1 (with a 12-week return to play, he’s expected back around season kickoff in ‘25), you ask if he’s been soured by his treatment from the national selectors.
Pretty good interview with him. open and honest.
I hope he plays the house down in super so he has to be picked.
Yeah I agree.
Maybe I am wrong but a trio of Sititi Lakai and Sotutu with Ardie off the bench (or starting at 7 with Lakai on the bench) would look pretty strong.I don't see the value in Sotutu with Lakai and Sititi already there, a better mix would be Sititi, Papali'i, Lakai, better defensively and at the ruck. it has everything you need. Savea on bench.
TBH your trio looks less strong than @nostrildamus's so it's likely Razor will go that way.
Bles were far worse off without Papali'i, I remember that loss to Saders his omission was the difference, they definitely wouldn't have lost if he'd played.
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
@Tim said in All Blacks 2025:
As a bulked-up Sotutu works through the recovery process from knee surgery on November 1 (with a 12-week return to play, he’s expected back around season kickoff in ‘25), you ask if he’s been soured by his treatment from the national selectors.
Pretty good interview with him. open and honest.
I hope he plays the house down in super so he has to be picked.
Yeah I agree.
Maybe I am wrong but a trio of Sititi Lakai and Sotutu with Ardie off the bench (or starting at 7 with Lakai on the bench) would look pretty strong.I don't see the value in Sotutu with Lakai and Sititi already there, a better mix would be Sititi, Papali'i, Lakai, better defensively and at the ruck. it has everything you need. Savea on bench.
TBH your trio looks less strong than @nostrildamus's so it's likely Razor will go that way.
Bles were far worse off without Papali'i, I remember that loss to Saders his omission was the difference, they definitely wouldn't have lost if he'd played.
It was. Choat had a really bad game that night.
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@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2025:
I'm with Leicester here.
Leaving aside parochial preferences, I prefer watching Top 14 to Super Snore. The games tend to be contests for longer, the crowds are much noisier and more partisan and the quality and type of Rugby is closer to Test rugby. Arguably there is a bit more variation and creativity in the way the Top 14 sides play too.
There's a big job to fix super rugby to make it more interesting again and a better preparation for playing Test Rugby. The Blues pointed the way last year. I hope other franchises were taking notes.
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2025:
I fear Robertson is John Hart 2.0. Except Hart inherited a great side and therefore enjoyed two illustrious years despite himself.
I hope NZR don't indulge Razor to the extent Eddie Tonks did Hart or we will see Mounga steering a sinking ship.
I'd say Hart was a far riskier coach.
He took big risks as a Blues coach but as a Blues coach he was pretty successful.
Not many seem to be giving him credit for promoting a young Michael Jones, for example. I vaguely recall concern Jones would be too small for the ABs. That concern didn't last long.Wait what .... Let's set aside that the Blues didn't exist at the time, but even blind freddie would have promoted MJ to the Auckland team. He was a 6 ft 1 95kg loosie in the 1980s, who considered him too small?
I think @nostrildamus is still drunk. This call is utter madness. 100kg loosies in that era were considered huge. According to my All Black Coffee mug Buck Shelford was 93kg
See my later and clarifying post. At 8.
And he was a helluva lot slimmer when he started.
And we shared a gym (and a building at uni) so I have seen him up close.@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2025:
I fear Robertson is John Hart 2.0. Except Hart inherited a great side and therefore enjoyed two illustrious years despite himself.
I hope NZR don't indulge Razor to the extent Eddie Tonks did Hart or we will see Mounga steering a sinking ship.
I'd say Hart was a far riskier coach.
He took big risks as a Blues coach but as a Blues coach he was pretty successful.
Not many seem to be giving him credit for promoting a young Michael Jones, for example. I vaguely recall concern Jones would be too small for the ABs. That concern didn't last long.Wait what .... Let's set aside that the Blues didn't exist at the time, but even blind freddie would have promoted MJ to the Auckland team. He was a 6 ft 1 95kg loosie in the 1980s, who considered him too small?
I think @nostrildamus is still drunk. This call is utter madness. 100kg loosies in that era were considered huge. According to my All Black Coffee mug Buck Shelford was 93kg
See my later and clarifying post. At 8.
And he was a helluva lot slimmer when he started.
And we shared a gym (and a building at uni) so I have seen him up close.If you look at photos of him in 1987 RWC, then he is very lean then. I would be surprised if he was over 90kgs then.
What a player though!
Funny, I was a kid in 1987 but I can remember people worrying about weight of players etc back then?!
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@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster , mate I was just saying the idea that anyone doesn't select on merit is wrong. Not sure what they use , or saying they should or shouldn't use Super form.
I don't believe players are knowingly selected for sentimental reasons. I looked at people who rubbished why TJP and Cane were selected this season and said it was sentimental etc. I personally would of picked them both as I thought they were within the best for their positions when they picked. .I perhaps am not right, but I say that from what I think. I didn't agree with all AB selections, but tend to get proved wrong by players I not sure about anyway.I know what you are saying mate, and there is some truth in it. But two pieces of evidence suggest Razor is also a homer who doesn't pick players deserving based on SR form, those are Hoskins Sotutu (voted SR player of the year) and Fihaki, who could barely make the Crusaders squad. Not to mention his incessant fapping over the idea of being able to select Moounga now
Yep well Sotutu surprised me not making it (assumed that was something historical in ABs with Jase Ryan?) and Fihaki just s=gobsmacked us all.
In that article he said they gave him workons, would be good to know what they were?
Play in Japan? Get injured more often?@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster , mate I was just saying the idea that anyone doesn't select on merit is wrong. Not sure what they use , or saying they should or shouldn't use Super form.
I don't believe players are knowingly selected for sentimental reasons. I looked at people who rubbished why TJP and Cane were selected this season and said it was sentimental etc. I personally would of picked them both as I thought they were within the best for their positions when they picked. .I perhaps am not right, but I say that from what I think. I didn't agree with all AB selections, but tend to get proved wrong by players I not sure about anyway.I know what you are saying mate, and there is some truth in it. But two pieces of evidence suggest Razor is also a homer who doesn't pick players deserving based on SR form, those are Hoskins Sotutu (voted SR player of the year) and Fihaki, who could barely make the Crusaders squad. Not to mention his incessant fapping over the idea of being able to select Moounga now
Yep well Sotutu surprised me not making it (assumed that was something historical in ABs with Jase Ryan?) and Fihaki just s=gobsmacked us all.
In that article he said they gave him workons, would be good to know what they were?
Play in Japan? Get injured more often?Yep mate I not sure what they got against him' I wondering if he upset Jase Ryan or something.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster , mate I was just saying the idea that anyone doesn't select on merit is wrong. Not sure what they use , or saying they should or shouldn't use Super form.
I don't believe players are knowingly selected for sentimental reasons. I looked at people who rubbished why TJP and Cane were selected this season and said it was sentimental etc. I personally would of picked them both as I thought they were within the best for their positions when they picked. .I perhaps am not right, but I say that from what I think. I didn't agree with all AB selections, but tend to get proved wrong by players I not sure about anyway.I know what you are saying mate, and there is some truth in it. But two pieces of evidence suggest Razor is also a homer who doesn't pick players deserving based on SR form, those are Hoskins Sotutu (voted SR player of the year) and Fihaki, who could barely make the Crusaders squad. Not to mention his incessant fapping over the idea of being able to select Moounga now
Yep well Sotutu surprised me not making it (assumed that was something historical in ABs with Jase Ryan?) and Fihaki just s=gobsmacked us all.
In that article he said they gave him workons, would be good to know what they were?
Play in Japan? Get injured more often?Yep mate I not sure what they got against him' I wondering if he upset Jase Ryan or something.
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster , mate I was just saying the idea that anyone doesn't select on merit is wrong. Not sure what they use , or saying they should or shouldn't use Super form.
I don't believe players are knowingly selected for sentimental reasons. I looked at people who rubbished why TJP and Cane were selected this season and said it was sentimental etc. I personally would of picked them both as I thought they were within the best for their positions when they picked. .I perhaps am not right, but I say that from what I think. I didn't agree with all AB selections, but tend to get proved wrong by players I not sure about anyway.I know what you are saying mate, and there is some truth in it. But two pieces of evidence suggest Razor is also a homer who doesn't pick players deserving based on SR form, those are Hoskins Sotutu (voted SR player of the year) and Fihaki, who could barely make the Crusaders squad. Not to mention his incessant fapping over the idea of being able to select Moounga now
Yep well Sotutu surprised me not making it (assumed that was something historical in ABs with Jase Ryan?) and Fihaki just s=gobsmacked us all.
In that article he said they gave him workons, would be good to know what they were?
Play in Japan? Get injured more often?Yep mate I not sure what they got against him' I wondering if he upset Jase Ryan or something.
Sotutu? Really?
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
@Tim said in All Blacks 2025:
As a bulked-up Sotutu works through the recovery process from knee surgery on November 1 (with a 12-week return to play, he’s expected back around season kickoff in ‘25), you ask if he’s been soured by his treatment from the national selectors.
Pretty good interview with him. open and honest.
I hope he plays the house down in super so he has to be picked.
Yeah I agree.
Maybe I am wrong but a trio of Sititi Lakai and Sotutu with Ardie off the bench (or starting at 7 with Lakai on the bench) would look pretty strong.I don't see the value in Sotutu with Lakai and Sititi already there, a better mix would be Sititi, Papali'i, Lakai, better defensively and at the ruck. it has everything you need. Savea on bench.
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks 2025:
I don't see the value in Sotutu with Lakai and Sititi already there, a better mix would be Sititi, Papali'i, Lakai, better defensively and at the ruck. it has everything you need. Savea on bench.
I don't see Lakai as being anything other than a 7 at international level, so he and Papalii are competing for the same position.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
@Tim said in All Blacks 2025:
As a bulked-up Sotutu works through the recovery process from knee surgery on November 1 (with a 12-week return to play, he’s expected back around season kickoff in ‘25), you ask if he’s been soured by his treatment from the national selectors.
Pretty good interview with him. open and honest.
I hope he plays the house down in super so he has to be picked.
Yeah I agree.
Maybe I am wrong but a trio of Sititi Lakai and Sotutu with Ardie off the bench (or starting at 7 with Lakai on the bench) would look pretty strong.I don't see the value in Sotutu with Lakai and Sititi already there, a better mix would be Sititi, Papali'i, Lakai, better defensively and at the ruck. it has everything you need. Savea on bench.
TBH your trio looks less strong than @nostrildamus's so it's likely Razor will go that way.
Bles were far worse off without Papali'i, I remember that loss to Saders his omission was the difference, they definitely wouldn't have lost if he'd played.
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
@Tim said in All Blacks 2025:
As a bulked-up Sotutu works through the recovery process from knee surgery on November 1 (with a 12-week return to play, he’s expected back around season kickoff in ‘25), you ask if he’s been soured by his treatment from the national selectors.
Pretty good interview with him. open and honest.
I hope he plays the house down in super so he has to be picked.
Yeah I agree.
Maybe I am wrong but a trio of Sititi Lakai and Sotutu with Ardie off the bench (or starting at 7 with Lakai on the bench) would look pretty strong.I don't see the value in Sotutu with Lakai and Sititi already there, a better mix would be Sititi, Papali'i, Lakai, better defensively and at the ruck. it has everything you need. Savea on bench.
TBH your trio looks less strong than @nostrildamus's so it's likely Razor will go that way.
Bles were far worse off without Papali'i, I remember that loss to Saders his omission was the difference, they definitely wouldn't have lost if he'd played.
I wasn't arguing against Papali'i.
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@darylmitchell said in All Blacks 2025:
I don't see the value in Sotutu with Lakai and Sititi already there, a better mix would be Sititi, Papali'i, Lakai, better defensively and at the ruck. it has everything you need. Savea on bench.
I don't see Lakai as being anything other than a 7 at international level, so he and Papalii are competing for the same position.
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@Bovidae Peter Lakai is already 110kg at age of 21,, he can play 8 no problem & Sotutu is not a generational player like Lakai appears to be.
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@darylmitchell I'm a fan of Lakai haven't seen generational talent just yet
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@darylmitchell I'm a fan of Lakai haven't seen generational talent just yet
If he’s a generational talent compared to Sotutu given what’s been written on here about him then Lakai must be some kind of superhuman.
Is it going to be fair if he plays against teams of lesser mortals ?
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@darylmitchell I'm a fan of Lakai haven't seen generational talent just yet
If he’s a generational talent compared to Sotutu given what’s been written on here about him then Lakai must be some kind of superhuman.
Is it going to be fair if he plays against teams of lesser mortals ?
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@darylmitchell I'm a fan of Lakai haven't seen generational talent just yet
If he’s a generational talent compared to Sotutu given what’s been written on here about him then Lakai must be some kind of superhuman.
Is it going to be fair if he plays against teams of lesser mortals ?
Yeah, but in the back of his mind he will always know that he ain't no Blackadder. Poor kid.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2025:
I fear Robertson is John Hart 2.0. Except Hart inherited a great side and therefore enjoyed two illustrious years despite himself.
I hope NZR don't indulge Razor to the extent Eddie Tonks did Hart or we will see Mounga steering a sinking ship.
I'd say Hart was a far riskier coach.
He took big risks as a Blues coach but as a Blues coach he was pretty successful.
Not many seem to be giving him credit for promoting a young Michael Jones, for example. I vaguely recall concern Jones would be too small for the ABs. That concern didn't last long.Wait what .... Let's set aside that the Blues didn't exist at the time, but even blind freddie would have promoted MJ to the Auckland team. He was a 6 ft 1 95kg loosie in the 1980s, who considered him too small?
You are right it was Auckland. But at 8 (when I first remember he played) he wasn't considered tall for an 8 in the lineout (where he played - as I recall - before he set up at 7). But Hart defended his many ways of jumping, inherited from a basketball background (I think?) So no, not a criticism I heard when he moved to 7/6.
I doubt it would be easy to find material to back up my memory (or debate it) unless you knew the players...
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2025:
I fear Robertson is John Hart 2.0. Except Hart inherited a great side and therefore enjoyed two illustrious years despite himself.
I hope NZR don't indulge Razor to the extent Eddie Tonks did Hart or we will see Mounga steering a sinking ship.
I'd say Hart was a far riskier coach.
He took big risks as a Blues coach but as a Blues coach he was pretty successful.
Not many seem to be giving him credit for promoting a young Michael Jones, for example. I vaguely recall concern Jones would be too small for the ABs. That concern didn't last long.Wait what .... Let's set aside that the Blues didn't exist at the time, but even blind freddie would have promoted MJ to the Auckland team. He was a 6 ft 1 95kg loosie in the 1980s, who considered him too small?
You are right it was Auckland. But at 8 (when I first remember he played) he wasn't considered tall for an 8 in the lineout (where he played - as I recall - before he set up at 7). But Hart defended his many ways of jumping, inherited from a basketball background (I think?) So no, not a criticism I heard when he moved to 7/6.
I doubt it would be easy to find material to back up my memory (or debate it) unless you knew the players...
The Iceman was almost as strong as props, had the vertical leap of best locks and could keep up with SJK (JK in those days).
Absolute freak.
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2025:
Maybe if he converted a few years ago.
Still only 28, no reason why he couldn't get another half a decade in if he's a hard worker.
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2025:
Maybe if he converted a few years ago.
Still only 28, no reason why he couldn't get another half a decade in if he's a hard worker.
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2025:
Maybe if he converted a few years ago.
Still only 28, no reason why he couldn't get another half a decade in if he's a hard worker.
Oh, I agree that he could have 5 plus years in Union.
But he is 28 now and won’t make a super rugby debut until he is 30 at the earliest so I think there would be a reluctance from AB selectors to pick someone like that
