All Blacks 2025
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@brodean and I think that was also addressed earlier, the process was a big part of the problem with several potential candidates either not applying or ruling themselves out as they felt the decision had already been made.
I have no issues with Razor getting the job, if he was an amazing regional manager applying for the national manger job in a business, I doubt they tell him to go work for the opposition for a while and then come back when another role opens up in 2-4 years depending on their success.
What is an issue, is NZR have given him the full 4 years, one woudl hope this included a review after 18 months, 2 years or so, with an option to terminate if performance was not up to scratch, but despite having the opportunity to learn from those sort of mistakes they made with Foster, I expect the contract he has is 4 years come what may.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean and I think that was also addressed earlier, the process was a big part of the problem with several potential candidates either not applying or ruling themselves out as they felt the decision had already been made.
I have no issues with Razor getting the job, if he was an amazing regional manager applying for the national manger job in a business, I doubt they tell him to go work for the opposition for a while and then come back when another role opens up in 2-4 years depending on their success.
What is an issue, is NZR have given him the full 4 years, one woudl hope this included a review after 18 months, 2 years or so, with an option to terminate if performance was not up to scratch, but despite having the opportunity to learn from those sort of mistakes they made with Foster, I expect the contract he has is 4 years come what may.
He definitely deserved the gig, he was the outstanding candidate at the time (Schmidts familial issues in mind) but he also now deserves to be fired.
Thats the issue.
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I think with Razor it's just as much as lack of diverse coaching experience as being the problem.
He's coached Canterbury and the Crusaders.
His coaching network is small - and even some of those he has had a falling out with (Leon MacDonald).
Therefore you end up with a weak coaching staff.
Foster had a similar issue in his tenure but was luckily able to pivot to Ryan and Schmidt.
Based on the evidence I question how much goodwill Razor has in coaching circles.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
I think with Razor it's just as much as lack of diverse coaching experience as being the problem.
He's coached Canterbury and the Crusaders.
His coaching network is small - and even some of those he has had a falling out with (Leon MacDonald).
Therefore you end up with a weak coaching staff.
Foster had a similar issue in his tenure but was luckily able to pivot to Ryan and Schmidt.
Based on the evidence I question how much goodwill Razor has in coaching circles.
Yeah, he never did it outside of one particular city/province who also were the teams he played for.
Also, a guy like Steve Hansen has tons of life experience outside of rugby what with working in the meat industry and being in the police force, has Razor got much life experience out of the confines of professional rugby?..
He just seems like a one dimensional.candidate and does not have a broad array of professional and management experience to draw from.
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@brodean and I think that was also addressed earlier, the process was a big part of the problem with several potential candidates either not applying or ruling themselves out as they felt the decision had already been made.
I have no issues with Razor getting the job, if he was an amazing regional manager applying for the national manger job in a business, I doubt they tell him to go work for the opposition for a while and then come back when another role opens up in 2-4 years depending on their success.
What is an issue, is NZR have given him the full 4 years, one woudl hope this included a review after 18 months, 2 years or so, with an option to terminate if performance was not up to scratch, but despite having the opportunity to learn from those sort of mistakes they made with Foster, I expect the contract he has is 4 years come what may.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean and I think that was also addressed earlier, the process was a big part of the problem with several potential candidates either not applying or ruling themselves out as they felt the decision had already been made.
I have no issues with Razor getting the job, if he was an amazing regional manager applying for the national manger job in a business, I doubt they tell him to go work for the opposition for a while and then come back when another role opens up in 2-4 years depending on their success.
What is an issue, is NZR have given him the full 4 years, one woudl hope this included a review after 18 months, 2 years or so, with an option to terminate if performance was not up to scratch, but despite having the opportunity to learn from those sort of mistakes they made with Foster, I expect the contract he has is 4 years come what may.
Given that, and this goal of his to win two World Cups with different teams, I would have expected him to be significantly less conservative in his approach and less afraid of losing in his first two years. He also could have used the goal of winning the World Cup to buy himself some forgiveness when things didn't go so well.
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@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
I don’t think there’s any question that Robertson was the right appointment. NZR handled the process poorly, however. Ideally, Robertson should have been surrounded by other top-level coaches, not just his mates. And while he deserved the job, that doesn’t guarantee he’s up to it. He still has time to turn things around, but at this stage it looks far from promising.
I think Joe Schmidt would have been a better option. Presumably he was available as a head coach of an international side given he has been the head coach of an international side since 2024.
Probably he could have made it work since half the games are in NZ.
My recollection is that Schmidt signalled limited interest in the top job at the time. He was appointed Wallabies head coach nine months after Robertson was given the All Blacks job.
As Dan mentioned he didn't want to work with Razor who was basically guaranteed the job as head coach.
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
I don’t think there’s any question that Robertson was the right appointment. NZR handled the process poorly, however. Ideally, Robertson should have been surrounded by other top-level coaches, not just his mates. And while he deserved the job, that doesn’t guarantee he’s up to it. He still has time to turn things around, but at this stage it looks far from promising.
I think Joe Schmidt would have been a better option. Presumably he was available as a head coach of an international side given he has been the head coach of an international side since 2024.
Probably he could have made it work since half the games are in NZ.
My recollection is that Schmidt signalled limited interest in the top job at the time. He was appointed Wallabies head coach nine months after Robertson was given the All Blacks job.
As Dan mentioned he didn't want to work with Razor who was basically guaranteed the job as head coach.
He was pissed at how the board treated Fozz wasn't he?
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
I think with Razor it's just as much as lack of diverse coaching experience as being the problem.
He's coached Canterbury and the Crusaders.
His coaching network is small - and even some of those he has had a falling out with (Leon MacDonald).
Therefore you end up with a weak coaching staff.
Foster had a similar issue in his tenure but was luckily able to pivot to Ryan and Schmidt.
Based on the evidence I question how much goodwill Razor has in coaching circles.
Yeah, he never did it outside of one particular city/province who also were the teams he played for.
Also, a guy like Steve Hansen has tons of life experience outside of rugby what with working in the meat industry and being in the police force, has Razor got much life experience out of the confines of professional rugby?..
He just seems like a one dimensional.candidate and does not have a broad array of professional and management experience to draw from.
@nonpartizan said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
I think with Razor it's just as much as lack of diverse coaching experience as being the problem.
He's coached Canterbury and the Crusaders.
His coaching network is small - and even some of those he has had a falling out with (Leon MacDonald).
Therefore you end up with a weak coaching staff.
Foster had a similar issue in his tenure but was luckily able to pivot to Ryan and Schmidt.
Based on the evidence I question how much goodwill Razor has in coaching circles.
Yeah, he never did it outside of one particular city/province who also were the teams he played for.
> Also, a guy like Steve Hansen has tons of life experience outside of rugby what with working in the meat industry and being in the police force, has Razor got much life experience out of the confines of professional rugby?..
He just seems like a one dimensional.candidate and does not have a broad array of professional and management experience to draw from.
That is becoming less and less of a factor as coaches get younger. Razor has probably done nothing but get paid to play and then coach Rugby.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean and I think that was also addressed earlier, the process was a big part of the problem with several potential candidates either not applying or ruling themselves out as they felt the decision had already been made.
I have no issues with Razor getting the job, if he was an amazing regional manager applying for the national manger job in a business, I doubt they tell him to go work for the opposition for a while and then come back when another role opens up in 2-4 years depending on their success.
What is an issue, is NZR have given him the full 4 years, one woudl hope this included a review after 18 months, 2 years or so, with an option to terminate if performance was not up to scratch, but despite having the opportunity to learn from those sort of mistakes they made with Foster, I expect the contract he has is 4 years come what may.
Given that, and this goal of his to win two World Cups with different teams, I would have expected him to be significantly less conservative in his approach and less afraid of losing in his first two years. He also could have used the goal of winning the World Cup to buy himself some forgiveness when things didn't go so well.
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean and I think that was also addressed earlier, the process was a big part of the problem with several potential candidates either not applying or ruling themselves out as they felt the decision had already been made.
I have no issues with Razor getting the job, if he was an amazing regional manager applying for the national manger job in a business, I doubt they tell him to go work for the opposition for a while and then come back when another role opens up in 2-4 years depending on their success.
What is an issue, is NZR have given him the full 4 years, one woudl hope this included a review after 18 months, 2 years or so, with an option to terminate if performance was not up to scratch, but despite having the opportunity to learn from those sort of mistakes they made with Foster, I expect the contract he has is 4 years come what may.
Given that, and this goal of his to win two World Cups with different teams, I would have expected him to be significantly less conservative in his approach and less afraid of losing in his first two years. He also could have used the goal of winning the World Cup to buy himself some forgiveness when things didn't go so well.
Exactly. There has been at least one storied All Black.side in every decade since the 60s - from the 67 team, 78, 87, 96, 05 and 13.
As of right now there has not been one in the 20s and the work.that needed to be done in 24 and 25 was to lay a foundation for a shot at the world cup in 27 and the Lions in 29.. it feels like an awful lot of time has been wasted these first two years with little to.show for it.
Razor needed to sell people on the idea that the first two years would be difficult and maybe not a lot of wins would be secured but that his long term vision of building a team to win the world cup was the ultimate focus. Fear of losing + conservative selections have seen almost two years wasted.
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@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean and I think that was also addressed earlier, the process was a big part of the problem with several potential candidates either not applying or ruling themselves out as they felt the decision had already been made.
I have no issues with Razor getting the job, if he was an amazing regional manager applying for the national manger job in a business, I doubt they tell him to go work for the opposition for a while and then come back when another role opens up in 2-4 years depending on their success.
What is an issue, is NZR have given him the full 4 years, one woudl hope this included a review after 18 months, 2 years or so, with an option to terminate if performance was not up to scratch, but despite having the opportunity to learn from those sort of mistakes they made with Foster, I expect the contract he has is 4 years come what may.
Given that, and this goal of his to win two World Cups with different teams, I would have expected him to be significantly less conservative in his approach and less afraid of losing in his first two years. He also could have used the goal of winning the World Cup to buy himself some forgiveness when things didn't go so well.
Exactly. There has been at least one storied All Black.side in every decade since the 60s - from the 67 team, 78, 87, 96, 05 and 13.
As of right now there has not been one in the 20s and the work.that needed to be done in 24 and 25 was to lay a foundation for a shot at the world cup in 27 and the Lions in 29.. it feels like an awful lot of time has been wasted these first two years with little to.show for it.
Razor needed to sell people on the idea that the first two years would be difficult and maybe not a lot of wins would be secured but that his long term vision of building a team to win the world cup was the ultimate focus. Fear of losing + conservative selections have seen almost two years wasted.
@nonpartizan said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean and I think that was also addressed earlier, the process was a big part of the problem with several potential candidates either not applying or ruling themselves out as they felt the decision had already been made.
I have no issues with Razor getting the job, if he was an amazing regional manager applying for the national manger job in a business, I doubt they tell him to go work for the opposition for a while and then come back when another role opens up in 2-4 years depending on their success.
What is an issue, is NZR have given him the full 4 years, one woudl hope this included a review after 18 months, 2 years or so, with an option to terminate if performance was not up to scratch, but despite having the opportunity to learn from those sort of mistakes they made with Foster, I expect the contract he has is 4 years come what may.
Given that, and this goal of his to win two World Cups with different teams, I would have expected him to be significantly less conservative in his approach and less afraid of losing in his first two years. He also could have used the goal of winning the World Cup to buy himself some forgiveness when things didn't go so well.
Exactly. There has been at least one storied All Black.side in every decade since the 60s - from the 67 team, 78, 87, 96, 05 and 13.
As of right now there has not been one in the 20s and the work.that needed to be done in 24 and 25 was to lay a foundation for a shot at the world cup in 27 and the Lions in 29.. it feels like an awful lot of time has been wasted these first two years with little to.show for it.
Razor needed to sell people on the idea that the first two years would be difficult and maybe not a lot of wins would be secured but that his long term vision of building a team to win the world cup was the ultimate focus. Fear of losing + conservative selections have seen almost two years wasted.
100%
The selections of Cane and TJP were completely unnecessary.
Cane is a hero and game as fuck. Nothing but respect for the guy.
But there was no need for him to be there.
Your Lakai’s, Papalii’s, Sotutu’s of the world should have more caps at this stage.
Not to mention the fly half debacle.
Lose a few tests in year one with Ruben Love at 10 and Lakai at 7 and you might get a pass.
Losing with the same old shower of chancers as the last bloke….not acceptable.
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@Jet It's the same problem as Foster had in some ways - too loyal to the players to drop them. Rieko shouldn't be shuffled to the wing, if he's not your centre he should be dropped and asked to play a couple of games at wing at a lower level to show he still can.
BB should be gone. Best case I think we see him shuffled to fullback.
TJP and Cane as you say.
With Foster I'd speculate it was personal loyalty, because he knew them all so well. With Robertson, perhaps there's some sort of culture which he is trying to create, because he has actually ditched guys he knew in Blackadder and Havili, while retaining past-it but long-term ABs for swansong type shit. If so I think that's a terrible mistake, because it needs to be first and foremost and above everything else, performance-based. -
I think with Razor it's just as much as lack of diverse coaching experience as being the problem.
He's coached Canterbury and the Crusaders.
His coaching network is small - and even some of those he has had a falling out with (Leon MacDonald).
Therefore you end up with a weak coaching staff.
Foster had a similar issue in his tenure but was luckily able to pivot to Ryan and Schmidt.
Based on the evidence I question how much goodwill Razor has in coaching circles.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
I think with Razor it's just as much as lack of diverse coaching experience as being the problem.
He's coached Canterbury and the Crusaders.
His coaching network is small - and even some of those he has had a falling out with (Leon MacDonald).
Therefore you end up with a weak coaching staff.
Foster had a similar issue in his tenure but was luckily able to pivot to Ryan and Schmidt.
Based on the evidence I question how much goodwill Razor has in coaching circles.
I think the big difference is we all know the original coaching group assembled by Foster wasn't the one he wanted, it was the one he could get.
Apart from Leon walking out the door, is this the group Razor wanted? Because a bunch of them look as out of their depth as Foster's originals.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
I think with Razor it's just as much as lack of diverse coaching experience as being the problem.
He's coached Canterbury and the Crusaders.
His coaching network is small - and even some of those he has had a falling out with (Leon MacDonald).
Therefore you end up with a weak coaching staff.
Foster had a similar issue in his tenure but was luckily able to pivot to Ryan and Schmidt.
Based on the evidence I question how much goodwill Razor has in coaching circles.
I think the big difference is we all know the original coaching group assembled by Foster wasn't the one he wanted, it was the one he could get.
Apart from Leon walking out the door, is this the group Razor wanted? Because a bunch of them look as out of their depth as Foster's originals.
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I don’t think there’s any question that Robertson was the right appointment. NZR handled the process poorly, however. Ideally, Robertson should have been surrounded by other top-level coaches, not just his mates. And while he deserved the job, that doesn’t guarantee he’s up to it. He still has time to turn things around, but at this stage it looks far from promising.
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
I don’t think there’s any question that Robertson was the right appointment. NZR handled the process poorly, however. Ideally, Robertson should have been surrounded by other top-level coaches, not just his mates. And while he deserved the job, that doesn’t guarantee he’s up to it. He still has time to turn things around, but at this stage it looks far from promising.
This seemed to be the problem for Fozzie as well, who got stuck with dud assistants. The problem is made even worse under Razor given he seems to be very much a vibes guy rather than a technically good coach.
The process for appointing both Fozzie and Razor was an absolute shit show that left us with poor coaching groups - I think the biggest problems with the ABs right now is that NZR can't come up with a process for appointing a new coaching group that maximises the talent we have. Surely they'd get all the best coaches in a room together and tell them to make it work given this is our national side? And that a bit of disagreement is actually a good thing in a professional environment? We get limited say in the colleagues we work with in our jobs, we just make it work. Perhaps NZR err on the side of just picking who they think is best, short of two blokes wanting to kill each other, instead of making candidates try and lock in their "team" ahead of time.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I still believe Robertson is a very good head coach - his issue may be that some of his assistant aren't quite up to scratch at this level.
You don't have the success he has had and it be a total fluke.
Maybe he's just not good enough at Test level? A bit like George Bridge - he was successful for the Crusaders too.
I agree with Henry and Hansen - NZR should have insisted he was tested at International level before being given the job. But we are where we are.
I am a long way from being a Robertson supporter, that should be pretty clear.
But it's not comparable to George Bridge, who was a good winger benefitting from playing in the best team. If anyone it's more Reuben Thorne - the guy leading the best team to the best results - but even then it's quite different in that player performances are highly visible to the public, whereas coaching is pretty much completely opaque other than final results.
By international experience, what do you mean? Coaching a national side, or coaching a club/provincial side in another country? If a national side, clearly you think Brazil doesn't count - where is the line? And do you mean as a head coach, or as an assistant coach? Robertson also played in both Japan and France, so he has some experience in other environments.
Any which way, I find it dogmatic. There are definitely aspects of test rugby in terms of prep time and tournament play vs prepping for a long season that are different, but these things are never black and white. Nobody has ever done something until they have.If he's not good enough and our results are shit, I'm all for sacking him - I can't understand some of his selections, his tactics, half the sentences that come out of his mouth are nonsense or contradictory - but I don't want to see his failures being put down to some arbitrary missing requirement for international experience, whatever that means, which can then be used to rule out our next good candidate.
@reprobate
Then what do you put it down to? An honest question. Lack of international club/country just seems to be one of a few suggestions being floated. -
on the other side of the draw, there just aren't enough challenging head and assistant coaching jobs in NZ that pay well enough to stop the coaching drain: SA, Ireland, England, Japan, Australia ... they can't all easily come back and apply once they've gone and most of them have improved our rivals (arguably).
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There would have been huge value in Razor coaching up North to learn their systems etc, and put his coaching talents to the test outside of the cozy Crusaderland. Whether that's an international team or club, either would have benefited him a lot I think.
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Black pill time. I’m finding it hard to muster any enthusiasm for this weekend or anything beyond really. Wellington knocked the (little) faith I had completely out of me. Not the result, the performance. No confidence in the coaching team and the core veterans. I have doubts whether the management even know what the problems are.
We win comfortably in the weekend showing we can pull out the odd big performance but can’t sustain anything. Though we go out and lose the next week. We then head north and lose twice. We show just enough that none of the required structural changes are made. The media will tell us how great the players are, and a few bounces and refereeing decisions just didn’t go our way. The coaching team is locked in, the veterans which needed to go years ago hold on for the next WC and be guaranteed selection irrespective of performance.
Repeat for next year. Then it’s too late to change anything for the WC anyway. Depending on the draw, exit in the semis. Media and players say the coach just needs a bit more time and his plan is coming together.
Repeat the cycle.
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Any rumours on the 23 named tomorrow..?
Usually @george33 has some spill lol… -
Reckon it is eminently possible that Cam Roigard makes a world of difference. His threat around the ruck should give the other backs more space.
I thought our backs looked pretty slick in those first two tests v France - in fact we were slick in general.
Ratima has been shit, and Christie is shit, which certainly hasn’t helped matters.
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Black pill time. I’m finding it hard to muster any enthusiasm for this weekend or anything beyond really. Wellington knocked the (little) faith I had completely out of me. Not the result, the performance. No confidence in the coaching team and the core veterans. I have doubts whether the management even know what the problems are.
We win comfortably in the weekend showing we can pull out the odd big performance but can’t sustain anything. Though we go out and lose the next week. We then head north and lose twice. We show just enough that none of the required structural changes are made. The media will tell us how great the players are, and a few bounces and refereeing decisions just didn’t go our way. The coaching team is locked in, the veterans which needed to go years ago hold on for the next WC and be guaranteed selection irrespective of performance.
Repeat for next year. Then it’s too late to change anything for the WC anyway. Depending on the draw, exit in the semis. Media and players say the coach just needs a bit more time and his plan is coming together.
Repeat the cycle.
@JA said in All Blacks 2025:
Black pill time. I’m finding it hard to muster any enthusiasm for this weekend or anything beyond really. Wellington knocked the (little) faith I had completely out of me. Not the result, the performance. No confidence in the coaching team and the core veterans. I have doubts whether the management even know what the problems are.
We win comfortably in the weekend showing we can pull out the odd big performance but can’t sustain anything. Though we go out and lose the next week. We then head north and lose twice. We show just enough that none of the required structural changes are made. The media will tell us how great the players are, and a few bounces and refereeing decisions just didn’t go our way. The coaching team is locked in, the veterans which needed to go years ago hold on for the next WC and be guaranteed selection irrespective of performance.
Repeat for next year. Then it’s too late to change anything for the WC anyway. Depending on the draw, exit in the semis. Media and players say the coach just needs a bit more time and his plan is coming together.
Repeat the cycle.
I'd be showing the players the footage of them walking around on defence and generally not bothering, then asking them if they want to add to that footage in the future.
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@JA said in All Blacks 2025:
Black pill time. I’m finding it hard to muster any enthusiasm for this weekend or anything beyond really. Wellington knocked the (little) faith I had completely out of me. Not the result, the performance. No confidence in the coaching team and the core veterans. I have doubts whether the management even know what the problems are.
We win comfortably in the weekend showing we can pull out the odd big performance but can’t sustain anything. Though we go out and lose the next week. We then head north and lose twice. We show just enough that none of the required structural changes are made. The media will tell us how great the players are, and a few bounces and refereeing decisions just didn’t go our way. The coaching team is locked in, the veterans which needed to go years ago hold on for the next WC and be guaranteed selection irrespective of performance.
Repeat for next year. Then it’s too late to change anything for the WC anyway. Depending on the draw, exit in the semis. Media and players say the coach just needs a bit more time and his plan is coming together.
Repeat the cycle.
I'd be showing the players the footage of them walking around on defence and generally not bothering, then asking them if they want to add to that footage in the future.
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@JA said in All Blacks 2025:
Black pill time. I’m finding it hard to muster any enthusiasm for this weekend or anything beyond really. Wellington knocked the (little) faith I had completely out of me. Not the result, the performance. No confidence in the coaching team and the core veterans. I have doubts whether the management even know what the problems are.
We win comfortably in the weekend showing we can pull out the odd big performance but can’t sustain anything. Though we go out and lose the next week. We then head north and lose twice. We show just enough that none of the required structural changes are made. The media will tell us how great the players are, and a few bounces and refereeing decisions just didn’t go our way. The coaching team is locked in, the veterans which needed to go years ago hold on for the next WC and be guaranteed selection irrespective of performance.
Repeat for next year. Then it’s too late to change anything for the WC anyway. Depending on the draw, exit in the semis. Media and players say the coach just needs a bit more time and his plan is coming together.
Repeat the cycle.
I'd be showing the players the footage of them walking around on defence and generally not bothering, then asking them if they want to add to that footage in the future.
I'D be showing the players who were walking the fucking door and don't come back.
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Any rumours on the 23 named tomorrow..?
Usually @george33 has some spill lol…@upthelanders Reiko to resume his spot.
