AB Blindside - past, present & future
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Why did Hemopo leave again? I thought he offered something, good workrate and aggression,
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Given the talent options were Luatua, Squire, Fifita, Frizell, Papali'i, Hemopo, Ioane, and Finau I would say the only reason a long term six has not been developed to replace Kaino is coaching and player management failure. All of these guys were immensely talented.
It was just been a cycle of giving a guy a go and then tossing them on the heap, then looping back to them if they were still around.
I feel chucking Blackadder in there over Finau or Parker or Sititi is only going to delay one of those players development only for Blackadder to get injured again.
@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Given the talent options were Luatua, Squire, Fifita, Frizell, Papali'i, Hemopo, Ioane, and Finau I would say the only reason a long term six has not been developed to replace Kaino is coaching and player management failure. All of these guys were immensely talented.
It was just been a cycle of giving a guy a go and then tossing them on the heap, then looping back to them if they were still around.
I feel chucking Blackadder in there over Finau or Parker or Sititi is only going to delay one of those players development only for Blackadder to get injured again.
Not to mention that he’s hardly a world beater when he is actually fit.
Some journalists who for some reason actually get paid to write about sport should hang their heads at the wanky drivel they wrote about him when he came back from injury as some sort of messiah.
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Not sure about some of shit being talked about the Chiefs loosies here. We play wider than any other kiwi team. We commit fewer (forwards) players to cleaning as we rely on really quick cleans and carries. So, we may have fewer numbers of rucks hit as we need those rucks to be hit and cleaned well. (Edit: one of the things which is excellent this year is the accuracy of the clean across the forwards).
We are also getting a lot of our workrate out of our locks - Vaa'ii has hit more than 200 rucks at basically 90% effectiveness. It's not surprising to see Ah Kuio with greater ruck numbers than Finau for example, as Ah Kuio has been mainly playing at lock. He's slightly less effective but doing a great job, even though we have some hybrid players out there at times, it suits our speed game.
We have Jacobson at 7, which means we can achieve balance. I'm not sure that he is fast enough to play there for the ABs, but arguably that is the way of replicating our game plan at the next level (with either him or Blackadder or Paps at 7), but it likely means putting either Ardie or Sititi on the bench, as we can then pick a Parker or Finau at 6, and one of the explosive players at 8.
I'm not saying I would do that, btw but it helps us achieve balance.
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Given the talent options were Luatua, Squire, Fifita, Frizell, Papali'i, Hemopo, Ioane, and Finau I would say the only reason a long term six has not been developed to replace Kaino is coaching and player management failure. All of these guys were immensely talented.
It was just been a cycle of giving a guy a go and then tossing them on the heap, then looping back to them if they were still around.
I feel chucking Blackadder in there over Finau or Parker or Sititi is only going to delay one of those players development only for Blackadder to get injured again.
@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Given the talent options were Luatua, Squire, Fifita, Frizell, Papali'i, Hemopo, Ioane, and Finau I would say the only reason a long term six has not been developed to replace Kaino is coaching and player management failure. All of these guys were immensely talented.
It was just been a cycle of giving a guy a go and then tossing them on the heap, then looping back to them if they were still around.
I feel chucking Blackadder in there over Finau or Parker or Sititi is only going to delay one of those players development only for Blackadder to get injured again.
The longer they persistent with EB the more suspicious I become that Razor and Ryan will not solve the loose forward problem
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@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Given the talent options were Luatua, Squire, Fifita, Frizell, Papali'i, Hemopo, Ioane, and Finau I would say the only reason a long term six has not been developed to replace Kaino is coaching and player management failure. All of these guys were immensely talented.
It was just been a cycle of giving a guy a go and then tossing them on the heap, then looping back to them if they were still around.
I feel chucking Blackadder in there over Finau or Parker or Sititi is only going to delay one of those players development only for Blackadder to get injured again.
The longer they persistent with EB the more suspicious I become that Razor and Ryan will not solve the loose forward problem
@canefan said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Given the talent options were Luatua, Squire, Fifita, Frizell, Papali'i, Hemopo, Ioane, and Finau I would say the only reason a long term six has not been developed to replace Kaino is coaching and player management failure. All of these guys were immensely talented.
It was just been a cycle of giving a guy a go and then tossing them on the heap, then looping back to them if they were still around.
I feel chucking Blackadder in there over Finau or Parker or Sititi is only going to delay one of those players development only for Blackadder to get injured again.
The longer they persistent with EB the more suspicious I become that Razor and Ryan will not solve the loose forward problem
At what stage does ‘I used to work with his Dad’ wear off ?
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I cant be bothered checking the team sheets for this, as @Bovidae probably remembers off the top of his head. Has Parker started at 7 this year? I wonder if some of his greater involvement per minute just reflects him spending more time playing in the middle at 7 (arguably a great thing that he has this versatility).
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Not sure about some of shit being talked about the Chiefs loosies here. We play wider than any other kiwi team. We commit fewer (forwards) players to cleaning as we rely on really quick cleans and carries. So, we may have fewer numbers of rucks hit as we need those rucks to be hit and cleaned well. (Edit: one of the things which is excellent this year is the accuracy of the clean across the forwards).
We are also getting a lot of our workrate out of our locks - Vaa'ii has hit more than 200 rucks at basically 90% effectiveness. It's not surprising to see Ah Kuio with greater ruck numbers than Finau for example, as Ah Kuio has been mainly playing at lock. He's slightly less effective but doing a great job, even though we have some hybrid players out there at times, it suits our speed game.
We have Jacobson at 7, which means we can achieve balance. I'm not sure that he is fast enough to play there for the ABs, but arguably that is the way of replicating our game plan at the next level (with either him or Blackadder or Paps at 7), but it likely means putting either Ardie or Sititi on the bench, as we can then pick a Parker or Finau at 6, and one of the explosive players at 8.
I'm not saying I would do that, btw but it helps us achieve balance.
@gt12 said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Not sure about some of shit being talked about the Chiefs loosies here. We play wider than any other kiwi team. We commit fewer (forwards) players to cleaning as we rely on really quick cleans and carries. So, we may have fewer numbers of rucks hit as we need those rucks to be hit and cleaned well. (Edit: one of the things which is excellent this year is the accuracy of the clean across the forwards).
We are also getting a lot of our workrate out of our locks - Vaa'ii has hit more than 200 rucks at basically 90% effectiveness. It's not surprising to see Ah Kuio with greater ruck numbers than Finau for example, as Ah Kuio has been mainly playing at lock. He's slightly less effective but doing a great job, even though we have some hybrid players out there at times, it suits our speed game.
We have Jacobson at 7, which means we can achieve balance. I'm not sure that he is fast enough to play there for the ABs, but arguably that is the way of replicating our game plan at the next level (with either him or Blackadder or Paps at 7), but it likely means putting either Ardie or Sititi on the bench, as we can then pick a Parker or Finau at 6, and one of the explosive players at 8.
I'm not saying I would do that, btw but it helps us achieve balance.
According to those stats the Canes and the Crusaders play wider.
Also I think most people are leaning towards Parker or Finau ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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After watching Blackadder's performance last night, I was wondering what kind of mental gymnastics people would perform in order to criticise his play. I have not been disappointed.
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After watching Blackadder's performance last night, I was wondering what kind of mental gymnastics people would perform in order to criticise his play. I have not been disappointed.
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
After watching Blackadder's performance last night, I was wondering what kind of mental gymnastics people would perform in order to criticise his play. I have not been disappointed.
Nothing too strenuous in terms of mental gymnastics, busy and ineffective seem to sum things up pretty accurately
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After watching Blackadder's performance last night, I was wondering what kind of mental gymnastics people would perform in order to criticise his play. I have not been disappointed.
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
After watching Blackadder's performance last night, I was wondering what kind of mental gymnastics people would perform in order to criticise his play. I have not been disappointed.
If he dominates and is durable in the test matches I assume he will be given to play, I'll happily be proven wrong. But as Razor has said, SR performance isn't important to him, and EB has considerable form to back up my opinions
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After watching Blackadder's performance last night, I was wondering what kind of mental gymnastics people would perform in order to criticise his play. I have not been disappointed.
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
After watching Blackadder's performance last night, I was wondering what kind of mental gymnastics people would perform in order to criticise his play. I have not been disappointed.
His main criticism is that he is always injured for long periods. This prevents both him and another player reaching their true potential for the AB's when the coaches continually try to bring him back into the AB's.
Durability is an attribute of a player worth considering when you're wanting to build a cohesive team.
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@gt12 said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Not sure about some of shit being talked about the Chiefs loosies here. We play wider than any other kiwi team. We commit fewer (forwards) players to cleaning as we rely on really quick cleans and carries. So, we may have fewer numbers of rucks hit as we need those rucks to be hit and cleaned well. (Edit: one of the things which is excellent this year is the accuracy of the clean across the forwards).
We are also getting a lot of our workrate out of our locks - Vaa'ii has hit more than 200 rucks at basically 90% effectiveness. It's not surprising to see Ah Kuio with greater ruck numbers than Finau for example, as Ah Kuio has been mainly playing at lock. He's slightly less effective but doing a great job, even though we have some hybrid players out there at times, it suits our speed game.
We have Jacobson at 7, which means we can achieve balance. I'm not sure that he is fast enough to play there for the ABs, but arguably that is the way of replicating our game plan at the next level (with either him or Blackadder or Paps at 7), but it likely means putting either Ardie or Sititi on the bench, as we can then pick a Parker or Finau at 6, and one of the explosive players at 8.
I'm not saying I would do that, btw but it helps us achieve balance.
According to those stats the Canes and the Crusaders play wider.
Also I think most people are leaning towards Parker or Finau ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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@Old-Samurai-Jack said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
After watching Blackadder's performance last night, I was wondering what kind of mental gymnastics people would perform in order to criticise his play. I have not been disappointed.
Nothing too strenuous in terms of mental gymnastics, busy and ineffective seem to sum things up pretty accurately
@MN5 said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
After watching Blackadder's performance last night, I was wondering what kind of mental gymnastics people would perform in order to criticise his play. I have not been disappointed.
Nothing too strenuous in terms of mental gymnastics, busy and ineffective seem to sum things up pretty accurately
You don't even watch bro, just repeat soundbites like you do memes.
He was effective last night (YC aside), and he was also very effective in his 40 minutes the week prior. -
@MN5 said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
After watching Blackadder's performance last night, I was wondering what kind of mental gymnastics people would perform in order to criticise his play. I have not been disappointed.
Nothing too strenuous in terms of mental gymnastics, busy and ineffective seem to sum things up pretty accurately
You don't even watch bro, just repeat soundbites like you do memes.
He was effective last night (YC aside), and he was also very effective in his 40 minutes the week prior.@reprobate said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@MN5 said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
After watching Blackadder's performance last night, I was wondering what kind of mental gymnastics people would perform in order to criticise his play. I have not been disappointed.
Nothing too strenuous in terms of mental gymnastics, busy and ineffective seem to sum things up pretty accurately
You don't even watch bro, just repeat soundbites like you do memes.
He was effective last night (YC aside), and he was also very effective in his 40 minutes the week prior.That’s 110 total minutes. That’s incredible for him.
I take it all back
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@reprobate said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@MN5 said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
After watching Blackadder's performance last night, I was wondering what kind of mental gymnastics people would perform in order to criticise his play. I have not been disappointed.
Nothing too strenuous in terms of mental gymnastics, busy and ineffective seem to sum things up pretty accurately
You don't even watch bro, just repeat soundbites like you do memes.
He was effective last night (YC aside), and he was also very effective in his 40 minutes the week prior.That’s 110 total minutes. That’s incredible for him.
I take it all back
@MN5 said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@reprobate said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@MN5 said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
After watching Blackadder's performance last night, I was wondering what kind of mental gymnastics people would perform in order to criticise his play. I have not been disappointed.
Nothing too strenuous in terms of mental gymnastics, busy and ineffective seem to sum things up pretty accurately
You don't even watch bro, just repeat soundbites like you do memes.
He was effective last night (YC aside), and he was also very effective in his 40 minutes the week prior.That’s 110 total minutes. That’s incredible for him.
I take it all back
Nobody is arguing that he isn't always injured - if anything that makes the performances more impressive. Though I suppose he's had a lot of practice at coming back from injury, should have it down pat by now.
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I cant be bothered checking the team sheets for this, as @Bovidae probably remembers off the top of his head. Has Parker started at 7 this year? I wonder if some of his greater involvement per minute just reflects him spending more time playing in the middle at 7 (arguably a great thing that he has this versatility).
@gt12 said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
I cant be bothered checking the team sheets for this, as @Bovidae probably remembers off the top of his head. Has Parker started at 7 this year? I wonder if some of his greater involvement per minute just reflects him spending more time playing in the middle at 7 (arguably a great thing that he has this versatility).
Not this year.
He had a few games at 7 last season but he's been exclusively used at 6 and 8 in 2023.
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In terms of Parker I saw him as a potential AB last year however I do think that if Blackadder is fit he is likely to be in the squad as the starting 6 with Savea at 7 and Sititi at 8. Jason Ryan loves him some Blackadder and I can't see him looking past him. Personally I'd like to see someone like Parker in the squad over Blackadder but I'll be shocked if it happens.
Haig hasn't had a lot of game time this year. I do think there is a place for Finau and Parker in the squad.
I don't see Razor and co going for a tight 6 under their game plan. They picked Blackadder, Finau, and Sititi as starters last year. They're looking for mobile guys.
In terms of workrate Finau, Parker and Haig are very much alike compared to Blackadder. Finau is highly effective at attacking rucks and Parker in defensive rucks. With regards to Blackadder the coaches seem to be more interested in volume as opposed to actual impact. He's always been a high volume low impact guy.
Contact Involvements per 80 Minutes Loose Forwards ( Carries + Tackles + Rucks )
69.25 Ethan Blackadder
61.62 Corey Kellow
61.0 Tom Christie
58.87 Dalton Papali'i
58.51 Du'Plessis Kirifi
58.41 Sean Withy
56.02 Jahrome Brown
54.84 Peter Lakai
53.63 Ardie Savea
52.35 Vaiolini Ekuasi
52.17 Luke Jacobson
50.6 Cullen Grace
48.87 Christian Lio-Willie
48.33 Brayden Iose
47.89 Kaylum Boshier
47.36 Hugh Renton
45.14 Hoskins Sotutu
44.21 Simon Parker
42.27 Oliver Haig
39.32 Samipeni FinauTop 20 Loose Forward Players by Rucks Per 80 minutes
35.24 Dalton Papali'i
35.19 Ethan Blackadder
33.57 Sean Withy
31.78 Corey Kellow
31.4 Du'Plessis Kirifi
29.68 Tom Christie
29.13 Jahrome Brown
27.87 Ardie Savea
26.91 Luke Jacobson
25.77 Peter Lakai
25.44 Kaylum Boshier
23.85 Cullen Grace
23.35 Simon Parker
22.39 Vaiolini Ekuasi
21.74 Oliver Haig
20.72 Christian Lio-Willie
20.28 Samipeni Finau
20.0 Brayden Iose
19.95 Hoskins Sotutu
16.75 Hugh RentonTop 20 Loose Forward Players by Attacking Ruck Effectiveness
91.8% Samipeni Finau
91.3% Tom Christie
90.2% Dalton Papali'i
90.2% Vaiolini Ekuasi
88.1% Ardie Savea
87.8% Peter Lakai
87.6% Jahrome Brown
86.9% Christian Lio-Willie
85.9% Hoskins Sotutu
85.9% Du'Plessis Kirifi
85.2% Brayden Iose
85.1% Luke Jacobson
85.0% Sean Withy
84.5% Corey Kellow
84.5% Oliver Haig
83.1% Simon Parker
82.6% Hugh Renton
81.9% Cullen Grace
81.5% Ethan Blackadder
77.3% Kaylum BoshierTop 20 Loose Forward Players by Defensive Ruck Effectiveness
29.6% Simon Parker
23.9% Luke Jacobson
23.1% Kaylum Boshier
22.4% Du'Plessis Kirifi
21.9% Samipeni Finau
20.1% Ardie Savea
17.6% Cullen Grace
17.3% Dalton Papali'i
16.1% Tom Christie
15.2% Jahrome Brown
14.8% Christian Lio-Willie
14.7% Sean Withy
13.1% Peter Lakai
12.1% Hoskins Sotutu
12.0% Corey Kellow
11.8% Vaiolini Ekuasi
9.1% Brayden Iose
8.3% Hugh Renton
7.4% Ethan Blackadder
0.0% Oliver HaigTop 20 Loose Forward Players by Dominant Tackle %
16.5% Simon Parker
11.5% Samipeni Finau
8.0% Hugh Renton
7.9% Ardie Savea
7.1% Brayden Iose
6.2% Christian Lio-Willie
6.0% Ethan Blackadder
5.8% Hoskins Sotutu
5.5% Peter Lakai
5.3% Sean Withy
4.4% Kaylum Boshier
4.4% Corey Kellow
4.3% Du'Plessis Kirifi
4.2% Luke Jacobson
3.5% Jahrome Brown
3.4% Cullen Grace
3.3% Tom Christie
3.3% Dalton Papali'i
2.0% Oliver Haig
0.0% Vaiolini EkuasiStats from Opta theanalyst.
@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Jason Ryan loves him some Blackadder and I can't see him looking past him.
If he loved him wouldn't he give him some months to recover?
Has Blackladder lasted 6 or even 4 weeks this season without injury? -
I thought Blackadder played really well last night, against more than decent opposition. But looking at his game - close to source, lots of involvements, tackling around the waist rather than up high - I'm always wondering whether his game isn't best suited to 7.
But then you have another issue, which is that he isn't particularly fast or dynamic around the ruck. Now Sam Cane was pretty similar, especially in his later years, but we also saw that he was actively targeted in this sense last season, with attackers running strike moves to isolate and pass him by. So it would probably be the same for Blackadder.
To me, there's growing clarity around the loose forward roles in Super Rugby and this, I think, should translate to AB selection. You have opensides who are very mobile, excel at the breakdown and who have an active but loose role on attack as a carry and link player (Savea, Kirifi, Lasaqa). Then you have number 8s who are high-volume carriers and are able to physically impose their carry game through the middle of the field (Sititi, Lakai, Sotutu and Lio-Willie).
That just leaves blindside, which is probably still the most varied position amongst the NZ SR sides. Players like Finau, Parker, Flanders, Shields, Iose, Choat, Segner, Howden, Withy, Grace, and Blackadder have all played there, which is a mix of mostly opensides and number 8s.
I think the AB selection this year should really try to cement their vision on what they want from a blindside, with openside and number 8 becoming relatively straightforward, in my view. It’s a chance to bed in the loose forward-selection for the next few seasons, at least, which should really help the team.
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But is Wallace actually the best 6? Arguably he was the best 6 for the ABs over the last season. So even if he is better at 8 perhaps they might still play him at 6. Unlikely though unless they don't want to move Savea.
