All Blacks v France I
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Ardie Savea’s 50 minutes at openside
The international game, both past and present, has seen a plethora of player-types occupying the 7-jersey in Test rugby. When asked in 2008 by World Rugby what exactly constituted an openside flanker, Josh Kronfeld gave a typically blunt answer: “You’ve got to have good handling skills, good vision, be a bit of mongrel. You want to be able to be doing stuff, grovelling on the ground as well as doing the airy fairy stuff upright with the ball in hand so you have to be pretty well rounded in terms of your rugby skills.”Within this broad range of skills, each seven will look for their own identity, whether it be through jackalling (Pocock), disrupting the breakdown (McCaw), being a defensive stopper (Dusautoir, Cane) or being a link-man on attack between forwards and backs (Michael Jones). Looking at Ardie Savea’s game, it is clear that he mostly belongs to this latter tradition of the offensive openside, who excels through his vision and support in attack.
This support play was quickly apparent against the French and was a feature throughout the game. In the 15th minute, from a scrum around the halfway line, the ABs break the line through a tidy set-piece move from midfield. After a quick recycle and with McKenzie at first receiver, Savea has positioned himself on the former’s inside shoulder, in perfect position for an inside pass and a potential linebreak. McKenzie chooses to go outside, though, the pass eventually being intercepted by an alert Attissogbe.
But what about some of these other core facets of openside play, the mongrel and the grovelling on the ground? Here, I think it’s fair to say that Savea was selective yet impactful. The breakdown, during Savea’s stint at openside, was relatively safe and quick, with 62% of the ruck speed between between 0-3 seconds. Only two ruck turnovers were conceded, both to diminutive winger, Gabin Villière. One, in the 6th minute, when Holland and Barrett couldn’t shift him and once more in the 45th minute, again beating Scott Barrett to the ball after a Roigard linebreak.
Was Savea at fault for these turnovers? Yes and no. Again, Savea was selective rather than omnipresent at the breakdown but he was effective when and where he cleaned. Here, in the 38th minute with the ABs on attack in the French 22, Savea puts in a strong shoulder, cleaning out a well-positioned Guillard, and preventing a certain turnover.
At other points, he was able to effectively slow down the French ball, by wrapping up the opposition ball carrier and disrupting the momentum of the French attack.
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Savea worked well together with Lio-Willie during the first half, often combining in defence and attack as dual menaces around the ruck areaSo why was he partially at fault for the Villière turnovers? While Savea certainly tried to fulfil his openside responsibilities to Test standard, during the opening stanza of the second half especially, he lost control of the balance between these responsibilities and his own specialty, the carrying game.
After another gruelling series of carries through the middle early in the second half, it quickly becomes apparent that Savea has overexerted himself. So when Cam Roigard wants to put pace in the attack by going for the quick tap, Savea no longer has the energy to follow him.
Savea, seen here farthest on the right, can’t keep up with the AB attackThe final 5 minutes of Savea’s stint at openside also equal his weakest. After being unable to keep up with Roigard, he compounds his fatigue-induced, erratic play by, first, being unable to close the defensive gap for the van Tonder linebreak, and then second, when defending the try-line in the subsequent phase, Savea allows Woki to go underneath him for the score.
Herein also lies the biggest ‘learning’ (apologies, I couldn’t resist!) for the flanker/number 8-hybrid. Savea hasn’t played openside at Test level for a number of years. Looking at this game, I think it’s reasonable to suggest that he has both the tools and the brain to ultimately be effective in the position. But what he will need to do, however, is make sure he finds the proper balance between his carrying game and his openside responsibilities, being careful not to blow his engine when racking up the carries into a crowded defence.
Having more carriers on the field - like Williams, Sititi and Taukei'aho - should at least help with this, so Savea isn't tempted to take up too much of the carrying load on his own shoulders. Then again, Savea needs to be smarter as well, and self-regulate his energy levels.
Tldr; Savea can be a 7 at Test level, in my view, as he has the tools and brain for the position but will need to be careful not to overexert himself with his carrying game, neglecting his openside duties.
Good post Mauss.
He has the tools but I don't think its in his nature. It's difficult to teach an old dog new tricks and I feel that at 31 that's his instinct.
The carry stats are wrong and where I think we struggled in the game. The highlighted should not be carrying that much considering their roles.
Top Carries
18 Ardie Savea
17 Damian Mckenzie
15 Will Jordan
14 Beauden Barrett
13 Fabian Holland -
Good post Mauss.
He has the tools but I don't think its in his nature. It's difficult to teach an old dog new tricks and I feel that at 31 that's his instinct.
The carry stats are wrong and where I think we struggled in the game. The highlighted should not be carrying that much considering their roles.
Top Carries
18 Ardie Savea
17 Damian Mckenzie
15 Will Jordan
14 Beauden Barrett
13 Fabian Holland@brodean said in All Blacks v France I:
Good post Mauss.
He has the tools but I don't think its in his nature. It's difficult to teach an old dog new tricks and I feel that at 31 that's his instinct.
The carry stats are wrong and where I think we struggled in the game. The highlighted should not be carrying that much considering their roles.
Top Carries
18 Ardie Savea
17 Damian Mckenzie
15 Will Jordan
14 Beauden Barrett
13 Fabian HollandArdie is selected for his carrying, that's his key strength, and that was part and parcel of being an 8 so it was less of an issue if he was carrying that much.
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On the forwards.
Very nice to see a big man dominant in the middle of our lineout. They know it's going there, but they can't stop it.
Newell seems to do quite a bit of breakdown work.
Taylor very good - I'd still swap him with Samisoni and give the latter 40 minutes flat out for strong carries in traffic, then Taylor the rest of the game - a more accurate thrower and leader to close out tight games.
Vaai was okay at 6, worked hard as always. As someone said where's our PSDT/Wilson - that's not really going to be Vaai. Not sure a lock at 6 matches the desire to play fast and wide.
CLW pretty good - solid, no errors, nothing that says to me that he'll be world XV and the winning of games against the best teams though, and I'd have to question how many stop-gaps we need.
Savea, not bad but not the same standard as his super form?
Overall our set piece was good, and our rucks were generally pretty quick though we did give up several turnovers while hardly getting any ourselves - despite Savea and Kirifi both playing. -
@brodean said in All Blacks v France I:
Good post Mauss.
He has the tools but I don't think its in his nature. It's difficult to teach an old dog new tricks and I feel that at 31 that's his instinct.
The carry stats are wrong and where I think we struggled in the game. The highlighted should not be carrying that much considering their roles.
Top Carries
18 Ardie Savea
17 Damian Mckenzie
15 Will Jordan
14 Beauden Barrett
13 Fabian HollandArdie is selected for his carrying, that's his key strength, and that was part and parcel of being an 8 so it was less of an issue if he was carrying that much.
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I guess the issue with BB and his kicking, is he either is 'allowed' to kick or told he shouldn't...I doubt any coach will do that.
I think he has had free reign for so long, he sees space then poorly executes...
It was notable when we put our kicking boots away, we were all over them and looking like breaking loose, but didn't, then re went back to the kicking duel, which kept putting ourselves under pressure.
Kicking asid, BB went pretty well, so how do you get your hugely experienced 10 to kick less?
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BBs worst kick was the fucking attempted grubber through 3 compressed defenders while we were pouring forward. Idiotic
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I guess the issue with BB and his kicking, is he either is 'allowed' to kick or told he shouldn't...I doubt any coach will do that.
I think he has had free reign for so long, he sees space then poorly executes...
It was notable when we put our kicking boots away, we were all over them and looking like breaking loose, but didn't, then re went back to the kicking duel, which kept putting ourselves under pressure.
Kicking asid, BB went pretty well, so how do you get your hugely experienced 10 to kick less?
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France I:
I guess the issue with BB and his kicking, is he either is 'allowed' to kick or told he shouldn't...I doubt any coach will do that.
I think he has had free reign for so long, he sees space then poorly executes...
It was notable when we put our kicking boots away, we were all over them and looking like breaking loose, but didn't, then re went back to the kicking duel, which kept putting ourselves under pressure.
Kicking asid, BB went pretty well, so how do you get your hugely experienced 10 to kick less?
His passing was really pretty good, best we've seen from him this year, and he kicked his goals well. But fuck me, he kicks so much attacking ball away it does my head in. Each one of those should be treated as a turnover, because that's what they are - if someone knocked the ball on multiple times every game while hot on attack, they would be crucified.
I'm sure there'll be some game where it all comes off and we look amazing and put 50 on some team, but most of the time it means not converting opportunities or applying pressure. that's how you get France C staying close enough to potentially snatch victory - and there are several teams out there better than France C.And he can't exit with distance. And missed touch from a penalty. And a defensive bomb. And we still don't chase and contest - TBH that's the bit that really confuses me - because if it's a plan, sack the chasers. if it's not a plan, sack the kicker.
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I guess the issue with BB and his kicking, is he either is 'allowed' to kick or told he shouldn't...I doubt any coach will do that.
I think he has had free reign for so long, he sees space then poorly executes...
It was notable when we put our kicking boots away, we were all over them and looking like breaking loose, but didn't, then re went back to the kicking duel, which kept putting ourselves under pressure.
Kicking asid, BB went pretty well, so how do you get your hugely experienced 10 to kick less?
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France I:
I guess the issue with BB and his kicking, is he either is 'allowed' to kick or told he shouldn't...I doubt any coach will do that.
I think he has had free reign for so long, he sees space then poorly executes...
It was notable when we put our kicking boots away, we were all over them and looking like breaking loose, but didn't, then re went back to the kicking duel, which kept putting ourselves under pressure.
Kicking asid, BB went pretty well, so how do you get your hugely experienced 10 to kick less?
Not kick less, use better kick options and execute better
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I guess the issue with BB and his kicking, is he either is 'allowed' to kick or told he shouldn't...I doubt any coach will do that.
I think he has had free reign for so long, he sees space then poorly executes...
It was notable when we put our kicking boots away, we were all over them and looking like breaking loose, but didn't, then re went back to the kicking duel, which kept putting ourselves under pressure.
Kicking asid, BB went pretty well, so how do you get your hugely experienced 10 to kick less?
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France I:
I guess the issue with BB and his kicking, is he either is 'allowed' to kick or told he shouldn't...I doubt any coach will do that.
I think he has had free reign for so long, he sees space then poorly executes...
It was notable when we put our kicking boots away, we were all over them and looking like breaking loose, but didn't, then re went back to the kicking duel, which kept putting ourselves under pressure.
Kicking asid, BB went pretty well, so how do you get your hugely experienced 10 to kick less?
TBF it's not just BB. They all tried those stupid farking grubbers. Tupea had been on the field for about 5 seconds when he did one. It seems part of our DNA unfortunately. Can recall yelling at Nonu for doing it 15 odd years ago.
Thought BB was excellent with ball in hand but unfortunately kicking is kind of important for a 10 and he hasn't progressed a cm on that front since 2015. And again TBF it seems every one of our backs has a tendency to kick straight down someone's throat.
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BBs worst kick was the fucking attempted grubber through 3 compressed defenders while we were pouring forward. Idiotic
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France I:
BBs worst kick was the fucking attempted grubber through 3 compressed defenders while we were pouring forward. Idiotic
Agreed - that one and that odd cross chip kick when he was in his 22 in the first half stand out
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France I:
I guess the issue with BB and his kicking, is he either is 'allowed' to kick or told he shouldn't...I doubt any coach will do that.
I think he has had free reign for so long, he sees space then poorly executes...
It was notable when we put our kicking boots away, we were all over them and looking like breaking loose, but didn't, then re went back to the kicking duel, which kept putting ourselves under pressure.
Kicking asid, BB went pretty well, so how do you get your hugely experienced 10 to kick less?
Not kick less, use better kick options and execute better
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan then options is probably easier, but it seems the execution has been an issue for some time now, his kicking just isn't up.to it, then he throws in a cracker.just to give hope....
His great touches last night are offset by his consistently poor tactical and field kicking game. As someone else said, our team kicking game was poor, which is Razor's fault
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan then options is probably easier, but it seems the execution has been an issue for some time now, his kicking just isn't up.to it, then he throws in a cracker.just to give hope....
His great touches last night are offset by his consistently poor tactical and field kicking game. As someone else said, our team kicking game was poor, which is Razor's fault
@canefan when kicks were the right option, he kicked the wrong type or just a shit kick that hes been doing for some time now.
Add in poor chasing, extremely poor aerial skills, we should have put the kicks away in the 2nd half except on exits.
But agreed, he was good elsewhere, we created alot, put ourselves in position only to be undone by our very poor kicking game
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France I:
I guess the issue with BB and his kicking, is he either is 'allowed' to kick or told he shouldn't...I doubt any coach will do that.
I think he has had free reign for so long, he sees space then poorly executes...
It was notable when we put our kicking boots away, we were all over them and looking like breaking loose, but didn't, then re went back to the kicking duel, which kept putting ourselves under pressure.
Kicking asid, BB went pretty well, so how do you get your hugely experienced 10 to kick less?
His passing was really pretty good, best we've seen from him this year, and he kicked his goals well. But fuck me, he kicks so much attacking ball away it does my head in. Each one of those should be treated as a turnover, because that's what they are - if someone knocked the ball on multiple times every game while hot on attack, they would be crucified.
I'm sure there'll be some game where it all comes off and we look amazing and put 50 on some team, but most of the time it means not converting opportunities or applying pressure. that's how you get France C staying close enough to potentially snatch victory - and there are several teams out there better than France C.And he can't exit with distance. And missed touch from a penalty. And a defensive bomb. And we still don't chase and contest - TBH that's the bit that really confuses me - because if it's a plan, sack the chasers. if it's not a plan, sack the kicker.
@reprobate
these low percentage kicks were the biggest blight on the game. At times we need to slow it down and just build pressure through pick n goes and Roigard running a bit more. -
@canefan when kicks were the right option, he kicked the wrong type or just a shit kick that hes been doing for some time now.
Add in poor chasing, extremely poor aerial skills, we should have put the kicks away in the 2nd half except on exits.
But agreed, he was good elsewhere, we created alot, put ourselves in position only to be undone by our very poor kicking game
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan when kicks were the right option, he kicked the wrong type or just a shit kick that hes been doing for some time now.
Add in poor chasing, extremely poor aerial skills, we should have put the kicks away in the 2nd half except on exits.
But agreed, he was good elsewhere, we created alot, put ourselves in position only to be undone by our very poor kicking game
What I can't work out is how much is BB at fault, and how much is Razor's team strategy
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan when kicks were the right option, he kicked the wrong type or just a shit kick that hes been doing for some time now.
Add in poor chasing, extremely poor aerial skills, we should have put the kicks away in the 2nd half except on exits.
But agreed, he was good elsewhere, we created alot, put ourselves in position only to be undone by our very poor kicking game
What I can't work out is how much is BB at fault, and how much is Razor's team strategy
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@canefan kicking is probably part of the game plan, I doubt BBs execution of said kicks can be laid at the feet of anyone bar BB.
Tactical kicking is certainly a weak part of most NZ teams right now
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan kicking is probably part of the game plan, I doubt BBs execution of said kicks can be laid at the feet of anyone bar BB.
Tactical kicking is certainly a weak part of most NZ teams right now
Yup. Kicking, kick contests, and exits are all Achilles heels for this team. It will likely cost us at least one game this season
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan when kicks were the right option, he kicked the wrong type or just a shit kick that hes been doing for some time now.
Add in poor chasing, extremely poor aerial skills, we should have put the kicks away in the 2nd half except on exits.
But agreed, he was good elsewhere, we created alot, put ourselves in position only to be undone by our very poor kicking game
What I can't work out is how much is BB at fault, and how much is Razor's team strategy
@canefan said in All Blacks v France I:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan when kicks were the right option, he kicked the wrong type or just a shit kick that hes been doing for some time now.
Add in poor chasing, extremely poor aerial skills, we should have put the kicks away in the 2nd half except on exits.
But agreed, he was good elsewhere, we created alot, put ourselves in position only to be undone by our very poor kicking game
What I can't work out is how much is BB at fault, and how much is Razor's team strategy
Vern would have to also be at fault - I've mentioned a few times during SR how bizarre it is. If it's against coaches instruction, he'd be dropped, if the coaches are instructing him to do it... what the fuck?
