All Blacks v France I
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@reprobate said in All Blacks v France I:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France I:
I guess the issue with BB and his kicking, is he either is 'allowed' to kick or told he shouldn't...I doubt any coach will do that.
I think he has had free reign for so long, he sees space then poorly executes...
It was notable when we put our kicking boots away, we were all over them and looking like breaking loose, but didn't, then re went back to the kicking duel, which kept putting ourselves under pressure.
Kicking asid, BB went pretty well, so how do you get your hugely experienced 10 to kick less?
His passing was really pretty good, best we've seen from him this year, and he kicked his goals well. But fuck me, he kicks so much attacking ball away it does my head in. Each one of those should be treated as a turnover, because that's what they are - if someone knocked the ball on multiple times every game while hot on attack, they would be crucified.
I'm sure there'll be some game where it all comes off and we look amazing and put 50 on some team, but most of the time it means not converting opportunities or applying pressure. that's how you get France C staying close enough to potentially snatch victory - and there are several teams out there better than France C.And he can't exit with distance. And missed touch from a penalty. And a defensive bomb. And we still don't chase and contest - TBH that's the bit that really confuses me - because if it's a plan, sack the chasers. if it's not a plan, sack the kicker.
It was noticeable that France had two or three effective chasers, whereas we often had no one getting near the ball.
@pakman said in All Blacks v France I:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v France I:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France I:
I guess the issue with BB and his kicking, is he either is 'allowed' to kick or told he shouldn't...I doubt any coach will do that.
I think he has had free reign for so long, he sees space then poorly executes...
It was notable when we put our kicking boots away, we were all over them and looking like breaking loose, but didn't, then re went back to the kicking duel, which kept putting ourselves under pressure.
Kicking asid, BB went pretty well, so how do you get your hugely experienced 10 to kick less?
His passing was really pretty good, best we've seen from him this year, and he kicked his goals well. But fuck me, he kicks so much attacking ball away it does my head in. Each one of those should be treated as a turnover, because that's what they are - if someone knocked the ball on multiple times every game while hot on attack, they would be crucified.
I'm sure there'll be some game where it all comes off and we look amazing and put 50 on some team, but most of the time it means not converting opportunities or applying pressure. that's how you get France C staying close enough to potentially snatch victory - and there are several teams out there better than France C.And he can't exit with distance. And missed touch from a penalty. And a defensive bomb. And we still don't chase and contest - TBH that's the bit that really confuses me - because if it's a plan, sack the chasers. if it's not a plan, sack the kicker.
It was noticeable that France had two or three effective chasers, whereas we often had no one getting near the ball.
What was most frustrating, was when we do have chasers, they seem coached to wait for the ball to either hit the turf or be caught by the opposition. Really substandard.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan said in All Blacks v France I:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan when kicks were the right option, he kicked the wrong type or just a shit kick that hes been doing for some time now.
Add in poor chasing, extremely poor aerial skills, we should have put the kicks away in the 2nd half except on exits.
But agreed, he was good elsewhere, we created alot, put ourselves in position only to be undone by our very poor kicking game
What I can't work out is how much is BB at fault, and how much is Razor's team strategy
To me, BB plays basically the same under any coach.
So is he not receptive to being coached, or are all his coaches either too chicken shit to tell him to change, or they like the uncontrolled way he plays?
@canefan said in All Blacks v France I:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan said in All Blacks v France I:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan when kicks were the right option, he kicked the wrong type or just a shit kick that hes been doing for some time now.
Add in poor chasing, extremely poor aerial skills, we should have put the kicks away in the 2nd half except on exits.
But agreed, he was good elsewhere, we created alot, put ourselves in position only to be undone by our very poor kicking game
What I can't work out is how much is BB at fault, and how much is Razor's team strategy
To me, BB plays basically the same under any coach.
So is he not receptive to being coached, or are all his coaches either too chicken shit to tell him to change, or they like the uncontrolled way he plays?
Could be 2 or 3 out of those 3 options you name.
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How good is it to have a unit in the middle of the lineout securing possession, catching kick-offs and the scrum not going backwards.
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v France I:
How good is it to have a unit in the middle of the lineout securing possession, catching kick-offs and the scrum not going backwards.
Yeah that was the biggest positive of the night, otherwise a serving up of the same old shite. At least our centres were better, however, our loosies and wing (Jordan is a fb) options are not really up to scratch. Lakai and Sititi being out doesn't help. I reckon those two are the long term prospects there.
Our Captain isn't doing it for me, more worrying as others have mentioned is our 1st 5 options, BB or Dmac are not the answer but the cuppord is bare.
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v France I:
How good is it to have a unit in the middle of the lineout securing possession, catching kick-offs and the scrum not going backwards.
Yeah that was the biggest positive of the night, otherwise a serving up of the same old shite. At least our centres were better, however, our loosies and wing (Jordan is a fb) options are not really up to scratch. Lakai and Sititi being out doesn't help. I reckon those two are the long term prospects there.
Our Captain isn't doing it for me, more worrying as others have mentioned is our 1st 5 options, BB or Dmac are not the answer but the cuppord is bare.
@Boourns said in All Blacks v France I:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v France I:
How good is it to have a unit in the middle of the lineout securing possession, catching kick-offs and the scrum not going backwards.
At least our centres were better
Is that you Billy Proctor?
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Probably the biggest positive for me in this test was seeing Roigard snipe again. He made two exceptional breaks, one leading to a disallowed try and the other where he was cut down just short from scoring.
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Probably the biggest positive for me in this test was seeing Roigard snipe again. He made two exceptional breaks, one leading to a disallowed try and the other where he was cut down just short from scoring.
@Canes4life said in All Blacks v France I:
Probably the biggest positive for me in this test was seeing Roigard snipe again. He made two exceptional breaks, one leading to a disallowed try and the other where he was cut down just short from scoring.
Great to see him running so effectively. Ignored Jordie on the inside who would have scored though.
Passing was good too, kicking okay but not so great - particularly the shocker just before he was subbed. -
@Canes4life said in All Blacks v France I:
Probably the biggest positive for me in this test was seeing Roigard snipe again. He made two exceptional breaks, one leading to a disallowed try and the other where he was cut down just short from scoring.
Great to see him running so effectively. Ignored Jordie on the inside who would have scored though.
Passing was good too, kicking okay but not so great - particularly the shocker just before he was subbed.@reprobate said in All Blacks v France I:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks v France I:
Probably the biggest positive for me in this test was seeing Roigard snipe again. He made two exceptional breaks, one leading to a disallowed try and the other where he was cut down just short from scoring.
Great to see him running so effectively. Ignored Jordie on the inside who would have scored though.
Passing was good too, kicking okay but not so great - particularly the shocker just before he was subbed.Yeah his kicking for the Canes this year wasn’t as good versus before he was injured. He doesn’t seem to get as much height in his kicks, hopefully he can get back to that level over the test season. His running game is coming back, let’s hope his kicking follows suit.
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@pakman said in All Blacks v France I:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v France I:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France I:
I guess the issue with BB and his kicking, is he either is 'allowed' to kick or told he shouldn't...I doubt any coach will do that.
I think he has had free reign for so long, he sees space then poorly executes...
It was notable when we put our kicking boots away, we were all over them and looking like breaking loose, but didn't, then re went back to the kicking duel, which kept putting ourselves under pressure.
Kicking asid, BB went pretty well, so how do you get your hugely experienced 10 to kick less?
His passing was really pretty good, best we've seen from him this year, and he kicked his goals well. But fuck me, he kicks so much attacking ball away it does my head in. Each one of those should be treated as a turnover, because that's what they are - if someone knocked the ball on multiple times every game while hot on attack, they would be crucified.
I'm sure there'll be some game where it all comes off and we look amazing and put 50 on some team, but most of the time it means not converting opportunities or applying pressure. that's how you get France C staying close enough to potentially snatch victory - and there are several teams out there better than France C.And he can't exit with distance. And missed touch from a penalty. And a defensive bomb. And we still don't chase and contest - TBH that's the bit that really confuses me - because if it's a plan, sack the chasers. if it's not a plan, sack the kicker.
It was noticeable that France had two or three effective chasers, whereas we often had no one getting near the ball.
What was most frustrating, was when we do have chasers, they seem coached to wait for the ball to either hit the turf or be caught by the opposition. Really substandard.
@Bones said in All Blacks v France I:
@pakman said in All Blacks v France I:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v France I:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France I:
I guess the issue with BB and his kicking, is he either is 'allowed' to kick or told he shouldn't...I doubt any coach will do that.
I think he has had free reign for so long, he sees space then poorly executes...
It was notable when we put our kicking boots away, we were all over them and looking like breaking loose, but didn't, then re went back to the kicking duel, which kept putting ourselves under pressure.
Kicking asid, BB went pretty well, so how do you get your hugely experienced 10 to kick less?
His passing was really pretty good, best we've seen from him this year, and he kicked his goals well. But fuck me, he kicks so much attacking ball away it does my head in. Each one of those should be treated as a turnover, because that's what they are - if someone knocked the ball on multiple times every game while hot on attack, they would be crucified.
I'm sure there'll be some game where it all comes off and we look amazing and put 50 on some team, but most of the time it means not converting opportunities or applying pressure. that's how you get France C staying close enough to potentially snatch victory - and there are several teams out there better than France C.And he can't exit with distance. And missed touch from a penalty. And a defensive bomb. And we still don't chase and contest - TBH that's the bit that really confuses me - because if it's a plan, sack the chasers. if it's not a plan, sack the kicker.
It was noticeable that France had two or three effective chasers, whereas we often had no one getting near the ball.
What was most frustrating, was when we do have chasers, they seem coached to wait for the ball to either hit the turf or be caught by the opposition. Really substandard.
It was like watching the Warriors were everyone just stops. Where is Ben Smith when you need him.
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@Bones said in All Blacks v France I:
@pakman said in All Blacks v France I:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v France I:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France I:
I guess the issue with BB and his kicking, is he either is 'allowed' to kick or told he shouldn't...I doubt any coach will do that.
I think he has had free reign for so long, he sees space then poorly executes...
It was notable when we put our kicking boots away, we were all over them and looking like breaking loose, but didn't, then re went back to the kicking duel, which kept putting ourselves under pressure.
Kicking asid, BB went pretty well, so how do you get your hugely experienced 10 to kick less?
His passing was really pretty good, best we've seen from him this year, and he kicked his goals well. But fuck me, he kicks so much attacking ball away it does my head in. Each one of those should be treated as a turnover, because that's what they are - if someone knocked the ball on multiple times every game while hot on attack, they would be crucified.
I'm sure there'll be some game where it all comes off and we look amazing and put 50 on some team, but most of the time it means not converting opportunities or applying pressure. that's how you get France C staying close enough to potentially snatch victory - and there are several teams out there better than France C.And he can't exit with distance. And missed touch from a penalty. And a defensive bomb. And we still don't chase and contest - TBH that's the bit that really confuses me - because if it's a plan, sack the chasers. if it's not a plan, sack the kicker.
It was noticeable that France had two or three effective chasers, whereas we often had no one getting near the ball.
What was most frustrating, was when we do have chasers, they seem coached to wait for the ball to either hit the turf or be caught by the opposition. Really substandard.
It was like watching the Warriors were everyone just stops. Where is Ben Smith when you need him.
@kev said in All Blacks v France I:
It was like watching the Warriors were everyone just stops. Where is Ben Smith when you need him.
Coaching the Highlanders?
https://thehighlanders.co.nz/our-teams/highlanders-super-rugby/ben-smith/?id=subscribeModal -
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan said in All Blacks v France I:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan when kicks were the right option, he kicked the wrong type or just a shit kick that hes been doing for some time now.
Add in poor chasing, extremely poor aerial skills, we should have put the kicks away in the 2nd half except on exits.
But agreed, he was good elsewhere, we created alot, put ourselves in position only to be undone by our very poor kicking game
What I can't work out is how much is BB at fault, and how much is Razor's team strategy
To me, BB plays basically the same under any coach.
So is he not receptive to being coached, or are all his coaches either too chicken shit to tell him to change, or they like the uncontrolled way he plays?
@canefan said in All Blacks v France I:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan said in All Blacks v France I:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan when kicks were the right option, he kicked the wrong type or just a shit kick that hes been doing for some time now.
Add in poor chasing, extremely poor aerial skills, we should have put the kicks away in the 2nd half except on exits.
But agreed, he was good elsewhere, we created alot, put ourselves in position only to be undone by our very poor kicking game
What I can't work out is how much is BB at fault, and how much is Razor's team strategy
To me, BB plays basically the same under any coach.
So is he not receptive to being coached, or are all his coaches either too chicken shit to tell him to change, or they like the uncontrolled way he plays?
There's a fourth option: The coaches believe with the state of the game that an unpredictable (i.e. mixed) kicking game keeps the defence on the back foot. And this provides dividends.
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Finau for a big unit really added no impact in this game,He was passive in the tackle he got knocked back a few times.And went no where forward.
Even though Vai'i maybe found out as a bit slow at 6 in the harder games, he was 100% better than Finau.@Chris said in All Blacks v France I:
Finau for a big unit really added no impact in this game,He was passive in the tackle he got knocked back a few times.And went no where forward.
Even though Vai'i maybe found out as a bit slow at 6 in the harder games, he was 100% better than Finau.Hard disagree. He dropped an early one cold and I was ready to write him off.
But after that he ran fucking hard and made yards in tight. He has a future i think.
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For the same reason as savea i reckon I'm close to done with DMac.
I can understand the allure, when it goes right it goes very right, but is it balanced out by the untold errors and created pressure?
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@Chris said in All Blacks v France I:
Finau for a big unit really added no impact in this game,He was passive in the tackle he got knocked back a few times.And went no where forward.
Even though Vai'i maybe found out as a bit slow at 6 in the harder games, he was 100% better than Finau.Hard disagree. He dropped an early one cold and I was ready to write him off.
But after that he ran fucking hard and made yards in tight. He has a future i think.
@mariner4life Spot on. AB ending 4/5/6 a leg up in dynamism from starters. Suggestion Scioter carrying an Achilles issue.
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@canefan said in All Blacks v France I:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan said in All Blacks v France I:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan when kicks were the right option, he kicked the wrong type or just a shit kick that hes been doing for some time now.
Add in poor chasing, extremely poor aerial skills, we should have put the kicks away in the 2nd half except on exits.
But agreed, he was good elsewhere, we created alot, put ourselves in position only to be undone by our very poor kicking game
What I can't work out is how much is BB at fault, and how much is Razor's team strategy
To me, BB plays basically the same under any coach.
So is he not receptive to being coached, or are all his coaches either too chicken shit to tell him to change, or they like the uncontrolled way he plays?
There's a fourth option: The coaches believe with the state of the game that an unpredictable (i.e. mixed) kicking game keeps the defence on the back foot. And this provides dividends.
@antipodean said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan said in All Blacks v France I:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan said in All Blacks v France I:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan when kicks were the right option, he kicked the wrong type or just a shit kick that hes been doing for some time now.
Add in poor chasing, extremely poor aerial skills, we should have put the kicks away in the 2nd half except on exits.
But agreed, he was good elsewhere, we created alot, put ourselves in position only to be undone by our very poor kicking game
What I can't work out is how much is BB at fault, and how much is Razor's team strategy
To me, BB plays basically the same under any coach.
So is he not receptive to being coached, or are all his coaches either too chicken shit to tell him to change, or they like the uncontrolled way he plays?
There's a fourth option: The coaches believe with the state of the game that an unpredictable (i.e. mixed) kicking game keeps the defence on the back foot. And this provides dividends.
Things that the coaches say about the way they want to play could suggest your assertion could be true
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Good post Mauss.
He has the tools but I don't think its in his nature. It's difficult to teach an old dog new tricks and I feel that at 31 that's his instinct.
The carry stats are wrong and where I think we struggled in the game. The highlighted should not be carrying that much considering their roles.
Top Carries
18 Ardie Savea
17 Damian Mckenzie
15 Will Jordan
14 Beauden Barrett
13 Fabian Holland@brodean said in All Blacks v France I:
Good post Mauss.
He has the tools but I don't think its in his nature. It's difficult to teach an old dog new tricks and I feel that at 31 that's his instinct.
The carry stats are wrong and where I think we struggled in the game. The highlighted should not be carrying that much considering their roles.
Top Carries
18 Ardie Savea
17 Damian Mckenzie
15 Will Jordan
14 Beauden Barrett
13 Fabian HollandI am not going to check the stats to verify this, but it seemed to me that Kirifi’s first 4 involvements were all carries - why?
Why is it that we constantly have our smallest forwards doing our carrying?
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For the same reason as savea i reckon I'm close to done with DMac.
I can understand the allure, when it goes right it goes very right, but is it balanced out by the untold errors and created pressure?
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France I:
For the same reason as savea i reckon I'm close to done with DMac.
I can understand the allure, when it goes right it goes very right, but is it balanced out by the untold errors and created pressure?
What didn't you like about McKenzie in this match? Think his only mistake was the attempted grubber (which didn't go too badly in the end, but was still the wrong call).
I think Barrett played well enough at 10 to justify him starting again in the second Test, but McKenzie has been the better performer in the black jersey for the past year, and the better performer in Super Rugby. Barrett was selected ahead of McKenzie for his more sensible decisions around kicking and I think it's pretty clear that he doesn't actually bring that skill to the arena.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France I:
For the same reason as savea i reckon I'm close to done with DMac.
I can understand the allure, when it goes right it goes very right, but is it balanced out by the untold errors and created pressure?
What didn't you like about McKenzie in this match? Think his only mistake was the attempted grubber (which didn't go too badly in the end, but was still the wrong call).
I think Barrett played well enough at 10 to justify him starting again in the second Test, but McKenzie has been the better performer in the black jersey for the past year, and the better performer in Super Rugby. Barrett was selected ahead of McKenzie for his more sensible decisions around kicking and I think it's pretty clear that he doesn't actually bring that skill to the arena.
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France I:
For the same reason as savea i reckon I'm close to done with DMac.
I can understand the allure, when it goes right it goes very right, but is it balanced out by the untold errors and created pressure?
What didn't you like about McKenzie in this match? Think his only mistake was the attempted grubber (which didn't go too badly in the end, but was still the wrong call).
I think Barrett played well enough at 10 to justify him starting again in the second Test, but McKenzie has been the better performer in the black jersey for the past year, and the better performer in Super Rugby. Barrett was selected ahead of McKenzie for his more sensible decisions around kicking and I think it's pretty clear that he doesn't actually bring that skill to the arena.
I think the intercept was the other one that was poor - but aside from that, I agree he was pretty good. Brave as hell, some lovely jinks in limited space
I for one was secretly pleased to see Reece leaving the field and DMac coming on (though I never like to see a bloke hurt). Much better back 3 for mine.
