All Blacks v France I
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@pakman said in All Blacks v France I:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v France I:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France I:
I guess the issue with BB and his kicking, is he either is 'allowed' to kick or told he shouldn't...I doubt any coach will do that.
I think he has had free reign for so long, he sees space then poorly executes...
It was notable when we put our kicking boots away, we were all over them and looking like breaking loose, but didn't, then re went back to the kicking duel, which kept putting ourselves under pressure.
Kicking asid, BB went pretty well, so how do you get your hugely experienced 10 to kick less?
His passing was really pretty good, best we've seen from him this year, and he kicked his goals well. But fuck me, he kicks so much attacking ball away it does my head in. Each one of those should be treated as a turnover, because that's what they are - if someone knocked the ball on multiple times every game while hot on attack, they would be crucified.
I'm sure there'll be some game where it all comes off and we look amazing and put 50 on some team, but most of the time it means not converting opportunities or applying pressure. that's how you get France C staying close enough to potentially snatch victory - and there are several teams out there better than France C.And he can't exit with distance. And missed touch from a penalty. And a defensive bomb. And we still don't chase and contest - TBH that's the bit that really confuses me - because if it's a plan, sack the chasers. if it's not a plan, sack the kicker.
It was noticeable that France had two or three effective chasers, whereas we often had no one getting near the ball.
What was most frustrating, was when we do have chasers, they seem coached to wait for the ball to either hit the turf or be caught by the opposition. Really substandard.
@Bones said in All Blacks v France I:
@pakman said in All Blacks v France I:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v France I:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France I:
I guess the issue with BB and his kicking, is he either is 'allowed' to kick or told he shouldn't...I doubt any coach will do that.
I think he has had free reign for so long, he sees space then poorly executes...
It was notable when we put our kicking boots away, we were all over them and looking like breaking loose, but didn't, then re went back to the kicking duel, which kept putting ourselves under pressure.
Kicking asid, BB went pretty well, so how do you get your hugely experienced 10 to kick less?
His passing was really pretty good, best we've seen from him this year, and he kicked his goals well. But fuck me, he kicks so much attacking ball away it does my head in. Each one of those should be treated as a turnover, because that's what they are - if someone knocked the ball on multiple times every game while hot on attack, they would be crucified.
I'm sure there'll be some game where it all comes off and we look amazing and put 50 on some team, but most of the time it means not converting opportunities or applying pressure. that's how you get France C staying close enough to potentially snatch victory - and there are several teams out there better than France C.And he can't exit with distance. And missed touch from a penalty. And a defensive bomb. And we still don't chase and contest - TBH that's the bit that really confuses me - because if it's a plan, sack the chasers. if it's not a plan, sack the kicker.
It was noticeable that France had two or three effective chasers, whereas we often had no one getting near the ball.
What was most frustrating, was when we do have chasers, they seem coached to wait for the ball to either hit the turf or be caught by the opposition. Really substandard.
It was like watching the Warriors were everyone just stops. Where is Ben Smith when you need him.
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@Bones said in All Blacks v France I:
@pakman said in All Blacks v France I:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v France I:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France I:
I guess the issue with BB and his kicking, is he either is 'allowed' to kick or told he shouldn't...I doubt any coach will do that.
I think he has had free reign for so long, he sees space then poorly executes...
It was notable when we put our kicking boots away, we were all over them and looking like breaking loose, but didn't, then re went back to the kicking duel, which kept putting ourselves under pressure.
Kicking asid, BB went pretty well, so how do you get your hugely experienced 10 to kick less?
His passing was really pretty good, best we've seen from him this year, and he kicked his goals well. But fuck me, he kicks so much attacking ball away it does my head in. Each one of those should be treated as a turnover, because that's what they are - if someone knocked the ball on multiple times every game while hot on attack, they would be crucified.
I'm sure there'll be some game where it all comes off and we look amazing and put 50 on some team, but most of the time it means not converting opportunities or applying pressure. that's how you get France C staying close enough to potentially snatch victory - and there are several teams out there better than France C.And he can't exit with distance. And missed touch from a penalty. And a defensive bomb. And we still don't chase and contest - TBH that's the bit that really confuses me - because if it's a plan, sack the chasers. if it's not a plan, sack the kicker.
It was noticeable that France had two or three effective chasers, whereas we often had no one getting near the ball.
What was most frustrating, was when we do have chasers, they seem coached to wait for the ball to either hit the turf or be caught by the opposition. Really substandard.
It was like watching the Warriors were everyone just stops. Where is Ben Smith when you need him.
@kev said in All Blacks v France I:
It was like watching the Warriors were everyone just stops. Where is Ben Smith when you need him.
Coaching the Highlanders?
https://thehighlanders.co.nz/our-teams/highlanders-super-rugby/ben-smith/?id=subscribeModal -
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan said in All Blacks v France I:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan when kicks were the right option, he kicked the wrong type or just a shit kick that hes been doing for some time now.
Add in poor chasing, extremely poor aerial skills, we should have put the kicks away in the 2nd half except on exits.
But agreed, he was good elsewhere, we created alot, put ourselves in position only to be undone by our very poor kicking game
What I can't work out is how much is BB at fault, and how much is Razor's team strategy
To me, BB plays basically the same under any coach.
So is he not receptive to being coached, or are all his coaches either too chicken shit to tell him to change, or they like the uncontrolled way he plays?
@canefan said in All Blacks v France I:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan said in All Blacks v France I:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan when kicks were the right option, he kicked the wrong type or just a shit kick that hes been doing for some time now.
Add in poor chasing, extremely poor aerial skills, we should have put the kicks away in the 2nd half except on exits.
But agreed, he was good elsewhere, we created alot, put ourselves in position only to be undone by our very poor kicking game
What I can't work out is how much is BB at fault, and how much is Razor's team strategy
To me, BB plays basically the same under any coach.
So is he not receptive to being coached, or are all his coaches either too chicken shit to tell him to change, or they like the uncontrolled way he plays?
There's a fourth option: The coaches believe with the state of the game that an unpredictable (i.e. mixed) kicking game keeps the defence on the back foot. And this provides dividends.
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Finau for a big unit really added no impact in this game,He was passive in the tackle he got knocked back a few times.And went no where forward.
Even though Vai'i maybe found out as a bit slow at 6 in the harder games, he was 100% better than Finau.@Chris said in All Blacks v France I:
Finau for a big unit really added no impact in this game,He was passive in the tackle he got knocked back a few times.And went no where forward.
Even though Vai'i maybe found out as a bit slow at 6 in the harder games, he was 100% better than Finau.Hard disagree. He dropped an early one cold and I was ready to write him off.
But after that he ran fucking hard and made yards in tight. He has a future i think.
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For the same reason as savea i reckon I'm close to done with DMac.
I can understand the allure, when it goes right it goes very right, but is it balanced out by the untold errors and created pressure?
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@Chris said in All Blacks v France I:
Finau for a big unit really added no impact in this game,He was passive in the tackle he got knocked back a few times.And went no where forward.
Even though Vai'i maybe found out as a bit slow at 6 in the harder games, he was 100% better than Finau.Hard disagree. He dropped an early one cold and I was ready to write him off.
But after that he ran fucking hard and made yards in tight. He has a future i think.
@mariner4life Spot on. AB ending 4/5/6 a leg up in dynamism from starters. Suggestion Scioter carrying an Achilles issue.
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@canefan said in All Blacks v France I:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan said in All Blacks v France I:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan when kicks were the right option, he kicked the wrong type or just a shit kick that hes been doing for some time now.
Add in poor chasing, extremely poor aerial skills, we should have put the kicks away in the 2nd half except on exits.
But agreed, he was good elsewhere, we created alot, put ourselves in position only to be undone by our very poor kicking game
What I can't work out is how much is BB at fault, and how much is Razor's team strategy
To me, BB plays basically the same under any coach.
So is he not receptive to being coached, or are all his coaches either too chicken shit to tell him to change, or they like the uncontrolled way he plays?
There's a fourth option: The coaches believe with the state of the game that an unpredictable (i.e. mixed) kicking game keeps the defence on the back foot. And this provides dividends.
@antipodean said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan said in All Blacks v France I:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan said in All Blacks v France I:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan when kicks were the right option, he kicked the wrong type or just a shit kick that hes been doing for some time now.
Add in poor chasing, extremely poor aerial skills, we should have put the kicks away in the 2nd half except on exits.
But agreed, he was good elsewhere, we created alot, put ourselves in position only to be undone by our very poor kicking game
What I can't work out is how much is BB at fault, and how much is Razor's team strategy
To me, BB plays basically the same under any coach.
So is he not receptive to being coached, or are all his coaches either too chicken shit to tell him to change, or they like the uncontrolled way he plays?
There's a fourth option: The coaches believe with the state of the game that an unpredictable (i.e. mixed) kicking game keeps the defence on the back foot. And this provides dividends.
Things that the coaches say about the way they want to play could suggest your assertion could be true
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Good post Mauss.
He has the tools but I don't think its in his nature. It's difficult to teach an old dog new tricks and I feel that at 31 that's his instinct.
The carry stats are wrong and where I think we struggled in the game. The highlighted should not be carrying that much considering their roles.
Top Carries
18 Ardie Savea
17 Damian Mckenzie
15 Will Jordan
14 Beauden Barrett
13 Fabian Holland@brodean said in All Blacks v France I:
Good post Mauss.
He has the tools but I don't think its in his nature. It's difficult to teach an old dog new tricks and I feel that at 31 that's his instinct.
The carry stats are wrong and where I think we struggled in the game. The highlighted should not be carrying that much considering their roles.
Top Carries
18 Ardie Savea
17 Damian Mckenzie
15 Will Jordan
14 Beauden Barrett
13 Fabian HollandI am not going to check the stats to verify this, but it seemed to me that Kirifi’s first 4 involvements were all carries - why?
Why is it that we constantly have our smallest forwards doing our carrying?
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For the same reason as savea i reckon I'm close to done with DMac.
I can understand the allure, when it goes right it goes very right, but is it balanced out by the untold errors and created pressure?
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France I:
For the same reason as savea i reckon I'm close to done with DMac.
I can understand the allure, when it goes right it goes very right, but is it balanced out by the untold errors and created pressure?
What didn't you like about McKenzie in this match? Think his only mistake was the attempted grubber (which didn't go too badly in the end, but was still the wrong call).
I think Barrett played well enough at 10 to justify him starting again in the second Test, but McKenzie has been the better performer in the black jersey for the past year, and the better performer in Super Rugby. Barrett was selected ahead of McKenzie for his more sensible decisions around kicking and I think it's pretty clear that he doesn't actually bring that skill to the arena.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France I:
For the same reason as savea i reckon I'm close to done with DMac.
I can understand the allure, when it goes right it goes very right, but is it balanced out by the untold errors and created pressure?
What didn't you like about McKenzie in this match? Think his only mistake was the attempted grubber (which didn't go too badly in the end, but was still the wrong call).
I think Barrett played well enough at 10 to justify him starting again in the second Test, but McKenzie has been the better performer in the black jersey for the past year, and the better performer in Super Rugby. Barrett was selected ahead of McKenzie for his more sensible decisions around kicking and I think it's pretty clear that he doesn't actually bring that skill to the arena.
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France I:
For the same reason as savea i reckon I'm close to done with DMac.
I can understand the allure, when it goes right it goes very right, but is it balanced out by the untold errors and created pressure?
What didn't you like about McKenzie in this match? Think his only mistake was the attempted grubber (which didn't go too badly in the end, but was still the wrong call).
I think Barrett played well enough at 10 to justify him starting again in the second Test, but McKenzie has been the better performer in the black jersey for the past year, and the better performer in Super Rugby. Barrett was selected ahead of McKenzie for his more sensible decisions around kicking and I think it's pretty clear that he doesn't actually bring that skill to the arena.
I think the intercept was the other one that was poor - but aside from that, I agree he was pretty good. Brave as hell, some lovely jinks in limited space
I for one was secretly pleased to see Reece leaving the field and DMac coming on (though I never like to see a bloke hurt). Much better back 3 for mine.
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Holland's received a lot of praise but I was a little bit underwhelmed.
He didn't really put a foot wrong but he also didn't do anything to suggest he's a better option that Lord or Tuipulotu at this stage. I'm absolutely not saying he shouldn't be in there, I'm as keen to see him given a go as anyone else and I'd love for him to be the new Brodie Retallick, but I've not yet (yet is key, obviously) seen anything from Holland to suggest he's anything more than a safe pair of hands in the second row.
Again, very happy to get him getting some minutes and would certainly keep giving him time in the saddle, but it's a bit unfair that we expect the loose forward to all be dynamic carriers of the ball or threats at the breakdown when the bar for Holland seems so low?
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Holland's received a lot of praise but I was a little bit underwhelmed.
He didn't really put a foot wrong but he also didn't do anything to suggest he's a better option that Lord or Tuipulotu at this stage. I'm absolutely not saying he shouldn't be in there, I'm as keen to see him given a go as anyone else and I'd love for him to be the new Brodie Retallick, but I've not yet (yet is key, obviously) seen anything from Holland to suggest he's anything more than a safe pair of hands in the second row.
Again, very happy to get him getting some minutes and would certainly keep giving him time in the saddle, but it's a bit unfair that we expect the loose forward to all be dynamic carriers of the ball or threats at the breakdown when the bar for Holland seems so low?
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
Holland's received a lot of praise but I was a little bit underwhelmed.
He didn't really put a foot wrong but he also didn't do anything to suggest he's a better option that Lord or Tuipulotu at this stage. I'm absolutely not saying he shouldn't be in there, I'm as keen to see him given a go as anyone else and I'd love for him to be the new Brodie Retallick, but I've not yet (yet is key, obviously) seen anything from Holland to suggest he's anything more than a safe pair of hands in the second row.
Again, very happy to get him getting some minutes and would certainly keep giving him time in the saddle, but it's a bit unfair that we expect the loose forward to all be dynamic carriers of the ball or threats at the breakdown when the bar for Holland seems so low?
Topping the tackle charts with 17, topped the lineouts won with 7 and carried 13 times
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@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
Holland's received a lot of praise but I was a little bit underwhelmed.
He didn't really put a foot wrong but he also didn't do anything to suggest he's a better option that Lord or Tuipulotu at this stage. I'm absolutely not saying he shouldn't be in there, I'm as keen to see him given a go as anyone else and I'd love for him to be the new Brodie Retallick, but I've not yet (yet is key, obviously) seen anything from Holland to suggest he's anything more than a safe pair of hands in the second row.
Again, very happy to get him getting some minutes and would certainly keep giving him time in the saddle, but it's a bit unfair that we expect the loose forward to all be dynamic carriers of the ball or threats at the breakdown when the bar for Holland seems so low?
Topping the tackle charts with 17, topped the lineouts won with 7 and carried 13 times
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
Holland's received a lot of praise but I was a little bit underwhelmed.
He didn't really put a foot wrong but he also didn't do anything to suggest he's a better option that Lord or Tuipulotu at this stage. I'm absolutely not saying he shouldn't be in there, I'm as keen to see him given a go as anyone else and I'd love for him to be the new Brodie Retallick, but I've not yet (yet is key, obviously) seen anything from Holland to suggest he's anything more than a safe pair of hands in the second row.
Again, very happy to get him getting some minutes and would certainly keep giving him time in the saddle, but it's a bit unfair that we expect the loose forward to all be dynamic carriers of the ball or threats at the breakdown when the bar for Holland seems so low?
Topping the tackle charts with 17, topped the lineouts won with 7 and carried 13 times
When you're used as the main lineout jumper, it makes sense you win the most lineouts... That's sort of the bare minimum for a lock.
As for the rest? Well, as I say, loose forwards on here seem to get judged to a completely different standard. He made 1.38 metres per carry - 17th in the squad and 8th amongst the forwards. Ethan Blackadder would get raked over the coals for that.
As I say, I'm happy to persist with him because he's young, but I don't think he did anything particularly notable on Saturday.
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For the same reason as savea i reckon I'm close to done with DMac.
I can understand the allure, when it goes right it goes very right, but is it balanced out by the untold errors and created pressure?
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France I:
For the same reason as savea i reckon I'm close to done with DMac.
I can understand the allure, when it goes right it goes very right, but is it balanced out by the untold errors and created pressure?
DMac and BB are basically the same rugby player, except that DMac has a better, stronger punt and is quicker. On that basis, I say we keep him and finally turf BB.
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
Holland's received a lot of praise but I was a little bit underwhelmed.
He didn't really put a foot wrong but he also didn't do anything to suggest he's a better option that Lord or Tuipulotu at this stage. I'm absolutely not saying he shouldn't be in there, I'm as keen to see him given a go as anyone else and I'd love for him to be the new Brodie Retallick, but I've not yet (yet is key, obviously) seen anything from Holland to suggest he's anything more than a safe pair of hands in the second row.
Again, very happy to get him getting some minutes and would certainly keep giving him time in the saddle, but it's a bit unfair that we expect the loose forward to all be dynamic carriers of the ball or threats at the breakdown when the bar for Holland seems so low?
Topping the tackle charts with 17, topped the lineouts won with 7 and carried 13 times
When you're used as the main lineout jumper, it makes sense you win the most lineouts... That's sort of the bare minimum for a lock.
As for the rest? Well, as I say, loose forwards on here seem to get judged to a completely different standard. He made 1.38 metres per carry - 17th in the squad and 8th amongst the forwards. Ethan Blackadder would get raked over the coals for that.
As I say, I'm happy to persist with him because he's young, but I don't think he did anything particularly notable on Saturday.
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
Holland's received a lot of praise but I was a little bit underwhelmed.
He didn't really put a foot wrong but he also didn't do anything to suggest he's a better option that Lord or Tuipulotu at this stage. I'm absolutely not saying he shouldn't be in there, I'm as keen to see him given a go as anyone else and I'd love for him to be the new Brodie Retallick, but I've not yet (yet is key, obviously) seen anything from Holland to suggest he's anything more than a safe pair of hands in the second row.
Again, very happy to get him getting some minutes and would certainly keep giving him time in the saddle, but it's a bit unfair that we expect the loose forward to all be dynamic carriers of the ball or threats at the breakdown when the bar for Holland seems so low?
Topping the tackle charts with 17, topped the lineouts won with 7 and carried 13 times
When you're used as the main lineout jumper, it makes sense you win the most lineouts... That's sort of the bare minimum for a lock.
As for the rest? Well, as I say, loose forwards on here seem to get judged to a completely different standard. He made 1.38 metres per carry - 17th in the squad and 8th amongst the forwards. Ethan Blackadder would get raked over the coals for that.
As I say, I'm happy to persist with him because he's young, but I don't think he did anything particularly notable on Saturday.
The point is that he shouldn't be carrying, he should be cleaning. I made an earlier comment about Kirifi's first 4 touches being carries too. We have some enormous huas in our pack (starting and bench) but we too often carry with our midgets or least dynamic big men.
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Good post Mauss.
He has the tools but I don't think its in his nature. It's difficult to teach an old dog new tricks and I feel that at 31 that's his instinct.
The carry stats are wrong and where I think we struggled in the game. The highlighted should not be carrying that much considering their roles.
Top Carries
18 Ardie Savea
17 Damian Mckenzie
15 Will Jordan
14 Beauden Barrett
13 Fabian Holland@brodean said in All Blacks v France I:
He has the tools but I don't think its in his nature. It's difficult to teach an old dog new tricks and I feel that at 31 that's his instinct.
The carry stats are wrong and where I think we struggled in the game. The highlighted should not be carrying that much considering their roles.
Top Carries
18 Ardie Savea
17 Damian Mckenzie
15 Will Jordan
14 Beauden Barrett
13 Fabian HollandI do think Savea could be a good openside option, especially within Robertson’s system, which seems to be based around ball-movement, constantly shifting the point of attack and getting in behind the opposition defence. Due to the sheer dynamism of the attack – 259 passes, 9 offloads, 182 ball carries, 425 post-contact metres, 13 line-breaks against France – I think it’s very difficult for a classical openside to consistently stay close to the source without being exhausted after 10 minutes.
So what’s important for an openside in this system is game understanding, the ability to cut corners around the field and anticipate what’s going to happen. And I do think someone like Savea has an uncanny ability to see certain plays unfold before they’ve occurred, whether it’s a line-break or an opposition player becoming isolated. So I’d like to see him given an extended run in the jersey, and see whether he can adapt to the requirements.
But what Robertson does need to be mindful of, I think, in the upcoming tests is to have enough “fresh” carrying options on the field at all times. In the France game, Lio-Willie spent the opening 10 minutes of the 2nd half mostly just tackling and cleaning, which meant that Savea did most of the hard carries through the middle on his own. If Robertson goes to his bench earlier – bringing on Taukei’aho and Norris, for example, at halftime – then I think it would’ve been easier for Savea to share the carrying load and maintain his own energy levels.
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@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France I:
For the same reason as savea i reckon I'm close to done with DMac.
I can understand the allure, when it goes right it goes very right, but is it balanced out by the untold errors and created pressure?
What didn't you like about McKenzie in this match? Think his only mistake was the attempted grubber (which didn't go too badly in the end, but was still the wrong call).
I think Barrett played well enough at 10 to justify him starting again in the second Test, but McKenzie has been the better performer in the black jersey for the past year, and the better performer in Super Rugby. Barrett was selected ahead of McKenzie for his more sensible decisions around kicking and I think it's pretty clear that he doesn't actually bring that skill to the arena.
I think the intercept was the other one that was poor - but aside from that, I agree he was pretty good. Brave as hell, some lovely jinks in limited space
I for one was secretly pleased to see Reece leaving the field and DMac coming on (though I never like to see a bloke hurt). Much better back 3 for mine.
@voodoo said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France I:
For the same reason as savea i reckon I'm close to done with DMac.
I can understand the allure, when it goes right it goes very right, but is it balanced out by the untold errors and created pressure?
What didn't you like about McKenzie in this match? Think his only mistake was the attempted grubber (which didn't go too badly in the end, but was still the wrong call).
I think Barrett played well enough at 10 to justify him starting again in the second Test, but McKenzie has been the better performer in the black jersey for the past year, and the better performer in Super Rugby. Barrett was selected ahead of McKenzie for his more sensible decisions around kicking and I think it's pretty clear that he doesn't actually bring that skill to the arena.
I think the intercept was the other one that was poor - but aside from that, I agree he was pretty good. Brave as hell, some lovely jinks in limited space
I for one was secretly pleased to see Reece leaving the field and DMac coming on (though I never like to see a bloke hurt). Much better back 3 for mine.
Well the majority seem to be moaning about kicking, imagine if we'd had the original back 3 doing that if Reece hadn't had such a huge noggin it refused to be excluded from tackling.
