All Blacks v France I
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For the same reason as savea i reckon I'm close to done with DMac.
I can understand the allure, when it goes right it goes very right, but is it balanced out by the untold errors and created pressure?
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@mariner4life Spot on. AB ending 4/5/6 a leg up in dynamism from starters. Suggestion Scioter carrying an Achilles issue.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan said in All Blacks v France I:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan said in All Blacks v France I:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France I:
@canefan when kicks were the right option, he kicked the wrong type or just a shit kick that hes been doing for some time now.
Add in poor chasing, extremely poor aerial skills, we should have put the kicks away in the 2nd half except on exits.
But agreed, he was good elsewhere, we created alot, put ourselves in position only to be undone by our very poor kicking game
What I can't work out is how much is BB at fault, and how much is Razor's team strategy
To me, BB plays basically the same under any coach.
So is he not receptive to being coached, or are all his coaches either too chicken shit to tell him to change, or they like the uncontrolled way he plays?
There's a fourth option: The coaches believe with the state of the game that an unpredictable (i.e. mixed) kicking game keeps the defence on the back foot. And this provides dividends.
Things that the coaches say about the way they want to play could suggest your assertion could be true
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@brodean said in All Blacks v France I:
Good post Mauss.
He has the tools but I don't think its in his nature. It's difficult to teach an old dog new tricks and I feel that at 31 that's his instinct.
The carry stats are wrong and where I think we struggled in the game. The highlighted should not be carrying that much considering their roles.
Top Carries
18 Ardie Savea
17 Damian Mckenzie
15 Will Jordan
14 Beauden Barrett
13 Fabian HollandI am not going to check the stats to verify this, but it seemed to me that Kirifi’s first 4 involvements were all carries - why?
Why is it that we constantly have our smallest forwards doing our carrying?
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France I:
For the same reason as savea i reckon I'm close to done with DMac.
I can understand the allure, when it goes right it goes very right, but is it balanced out by the untold errors and created pressure?
What didn't you like about McKenzie in this match? Think his only mistake was the attempted grubber (which didn't go too badly in the end, but was still the wrong call).
I think Barrett played well enough at 10 to justify him starting again in the second Test, but McKenzie has been the better performer in the black jersey for the past year, and the better performer in Super Rugby. Barrett was selected ahead of McKenzie for his more sensible decisions around kicking and I think it's pretty clear that he doesn't actually bring that skill to the arena.
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@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France I:
For the same reason as savea i reckon I'm close to done with DMac.
I can understand the allure, when it goes right it goes very right, but is it balanced out by the untold errors and created pressure?
What didn't you like about McKenzie in this match? Think his only mistake was the attempted grubber (which didn't go too badly in the end, but was still the wrong call).
I think Barrett played well enough at 10 to justify him starting again in the second Test, but McKenzie has been the better performer in the black jersey for the past year, and the better performer in Super Rugby. Barrett was selected ahead of McKenzie for his more sensible decisions around kicking and I think it's pretty clear that he doesn't actually bring that skill to the arena.
I think the intercept was the other one that was poor - but aside from that, I agree he was pretty good. Brave as hell, some lovely jinks in limited space
I for one was secretly pleased to see Reece leaving the field and DMac coming on (though I never like to see a bloke hurt). Much better back 3 for mine.
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Holland's received a lot of praise but I was a little bit underwhelmed.
He didn't really put a foot wrong but he also didn't do anything to suggest he's a better option that Lord or Tuipulotu at this stage. I'm absolutely not saying he shouldn't be in there, I'm as keen to see him given a go as anyone else and I'd love for him to be the new Brodie Retallick, but I've not yet (yet is key, obviously) seen anything from Holland to suggest he's anything more than a safe pair of hands in the second row.
Again, very happy to get him getting some minutes and would certainly keep giving him time in the saddle, but it's a bit unfair that we expect the loose forward to all be dynamic carriers of the ball or threats at the breakdown when the bar for Holland seems so low?
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@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
Holland's received a lot of praise but I was a little bit underwhelmed.
He didn't really put a foot wrong but he also didn't do anything to suggest he's a better option that Lord or Tuipulotu at this stage. I'm absolutely not saying he shouldn't be in there, I'm as keen to see him given a go as anyone else and I'd love for him to be the new Brodie Retallick, but I've not yet (yet is key, obviously) seen anything from Holland to suggest he's anything more than a safe pair of hands in the second row.
Again, very happy to get him getting some minutes and would certainly keep giving him time in the saddle, but it's a bit unfair that we expect the loose forward to all be dynamic carriers of the ball or threats at the breakdown when the bar for Holland seems so low?
Topping the tackle charts with 17, topped the lineouts won with 7 and carried 13 times
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
Holland's received a lot of praise but I was a little bit underwhelmed.
He didn't really put a foot wrong but he also didn't do anything to suggest he's a better option that Lord or Tuipulotu at this stage. I'm absolutely not saying he shouldn't be in there, I'm as keen to see him given a go as anyone else and I'd love for him to be the new Brodie Retallick, but I've not yet (yet is key, obviously) seen anything from Holland to suggest he's anything more than a safe pair of hands in the second row.
Again, very happy to get him getting some minutes and would certainly keep giving him time in the saddle, but it's a bit unfair that we expect the loose forward to all be dynamic carriers of the ball or threats at the breakdown when the bar for Holland seems so low?
Topping the tackle charts with 17, topped the lineouts won with 7 and carried 13 times
When you're used as the main lineout jumper, it makes sense you win the most lineouts... That's sort of the bare minimum for a lock.
As for the rest? Well, as I say, loose forwards on here seem to get judged to a completely different standard. He made 1.38 metres per carry - 17th in the squad and 8th amongst the forwards. Ethan Blackadder would get raked over the coals for that.
As I say, I'm happy to persist with him because he's young, but I don't think he did anything particularly notable on Saturday.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France I:
For the same reason as savea i reckon I'm close to done with DMac.
I can understand the allure, when it goes right it goes very right, but is it balanced out by the untold errors and created pressure?
DMac and BB are basically the same rugby player, except that DMac has a better, stronger punt and is quicker. On that basis, I say we keep him and finally turf BB.
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@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
Holland's received a lot of praise but I was a little bit underwhelmed.
He didn't really put a foot wrong but he also didn't do anything to suggest he's a better option that Lord or Tuipulotu at this stage. I'm absolutely not saying he shouldn't be in there, I'm as keen to see him given a go as anyone else and I'd love for him to be the new Brodie Retallick, but I've not yet (yet is key, obviously) seen anything from Holland to suggest he's anything more than a safe pair of hands in the second row.
Again, very happy to get him getting some minutes and would certainly keep giving him time in the saddle, but it's a bit unfair that we expect the loose forward to all be dynamic carriers of the ball or threats at the breakdown when the bar for Holland seems so low?
Topping the tackle charts with 17, topped the lineouts won with 7 and carried 13 times
When you're used as the main lineout jumper, it makes sense you win the most lineouts... That's sort of the bare minimum for a lock.
As for the rest? Well, as I say, loose forwards on here seem to get judged to a completely different standard. He made 1.38 metres per carry - 17th in the squad and 8th amongst the forwards. Ethan Blackadder would get raked over the coals for that.
As I say, I'm happy to persist with him because he's young, but I don't think he did anything particularly notable on Saturday.
The point is that he shouldn't be carrying, he should be cleaning. I made an earlier comment about Kirifi's first 4 touches being carries too. We have some enormous huas in our pack (starting and bench) but we too often carry with our midgets or least dynamic big men.
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@brodean said in All Blacks v France I:
He has the tools but I don't think its in his nature. It's difficult to teach an old dog new tricks and I feel that at 31 that's his instinct.
The carry stats are wrong and where I think we struggled in the game. The highlighted should not be carrying that much considering their roles.
Top Carries
18 Ardie Savea
17 Damian Mckenzie
15 Will Jordan
14 Beauden Barrett
13 Fabian HollandI do think Savea could be a good openside option, especially within Robertson’s system, which seems to be based around ball-movement, constantly shifting the point of attack and getting in behind the opposition defence. Due to the sheer dynamism of the attack – 259 passes, 9 offloads, 182 ball carries, 425 post-contact metres, 13 line-breaks against France – I think it’s very difficult for a classical openside to consistently stay close to the source without being exhausted after 10 minutes.
So what’s important for an openside in this system is game understanding, the ability to cut corners around the field and anticipate what’s going to happen. And I do think someone like Savea has an uncanny ability to see certain plays unfold before they’ve occurred, whether it’s a line-break or an opposition player becoming isolated. So I’d like to see him given an extended run in the jersey, and see whether he can adapt to the requirements.
But what Robertson does need to be mindful of, I think, in the upcoming tests is to have enough “fresh” carrying options on the field at all times. In the France game, Lio-Willie spent the opening 10 minutes of the 2nd half mostly just tackling and cleaning, which meant that Savea did most of the hard carries through the middle on his own. If Robertson goes to his bench earlier – bringing on Taukei’aho and Norris, for example, at halftime – then I think it would’ve been easier for Savea to share the carrying load and maintain his own energy levels.
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@voodoo said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France I:
For the same reason as savea i reckon I'm close to done with DMac.
I can understand the allure, when it goes right it goes very right, but is it balanced out by the untold errors and created pressure?
What didn't you like about McKenzie in this match? Think his only mistake was the attempted grubber (which didn't go too badly in the end, but was still the wrong call).
I think Barrett played well enough at 10 to justify him starting again in the second Test, but McKenzie has been the better performer in the black jersey for the past year, and the better performer in Super Rugby. Barrett was selected ahead of McKenzie for his more sensible decisions around kicking and I think it's pretty clear that he doesn't actually bring that skill to the arena.
I think the intercept was the other one that was poor - but aside from that, I agree he was pretty good. Brave as hell, some lovely jinks in limited space
I for one was secretly pleased to see Reece leaving the field and DMac coming on (though I never like to see a bloke hurt). Much better back 3 for mine.
Well the majority seem to be moaning about kicking, imagine if we'd had the original back 3 doing that if Reece hadn't had such a huge noggin it refused to be excluded from tackling.
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@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
Holland's received a lot of praise but I was a little bit underwhelmed.
He didn't really put a foot wrong but he also didn't do anything to suggest he's a better option that Lord or Tuipulotu at this stage. I'm absolutely not saying he shouldn't be in there, I'm as keen to see him given a go as anyone else and I'd love for him to be the new Brodie Retallick, but I've not yet (yet is key, obviously) seen anything from Holland to suggest he's anything more than a safe pair of hands in the second row.
Again, very happy to get him getting some minutes and would certainly keep giving him time in the saddle, but it's a bit unfair that we expect the loose forward to all be dynamic carriers of the ball or threats at the breakdown when the bar for Holland seems so low?
Topping the tackle charts with 17, topped the lineouts won with 7 and carried 13 times
When you're used as the main lineout jumper, it makes sense you win the most lineouts... That's sort of the bare minimum for a lock.
As for the rest? Well, as I say, loose forwards on here seem to get judged to a completely different standard. He made 1.38 metres per carry - 17th in the squad and 8th amongst the forwards. Ethan Blackadder would get raked over the coals for that.
As I say, I'm happy to persist with him because he's young, but I don't think he did anything particularly notable on Saturday.
I noticed the carries...take two steps, initiate contact, go to ground. There was no leg drive or "yards after the catch" to use NFL parlance.
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@junior said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
Holland's received a lot of praise but I was a little bit underwhelmed.
He didn't really put a foot wrong but he also didn't do anything to suggest he's a better option that Lord or Tuipulotu at this stage. I'm absolutely not saying he shouldn't be in there, I'm as keen to see him given a go as anyone else and I'd love for him to be the new Brodie Retallick, but I've not yet (yet is key, obviously) seen anything from Holland to suggest he's anything more than a safe pair of hands in the second row.
Again, very happy to get him getting some minutes and would certainly keep giving him time in the saddle, but it's a bit unfair that we expect the loose forward to all be dynamic carriers of the ball or threats at the breakdown when the bar for Holland seems so low?
Topping the tackle charts with 17, topped the lineouts won with 7 and carried 13 times
When you're used as the main lineout jumper, it makes sense you win the most lineouts... That's sort of the bare minimum for a lock.
As for the rest? Well, as I say, loose forwards on here seem to get judged to a completely different standard. He made 1.38 metres per carry - 17th in the squad and 8th amongst the forwards. Ethan Blackadder would get raked over the coals for that.
As I say, I'm happy to persist with him because he's young, but I don't think he did anything particularly notable on Saturday.
The point is that he shouldn't be carrying, he should be cleaning. I made an earlier comment about Kirifi's first 4 touches being carries too. We have some enormous huas in our pack (starting and bench) but we too often carry with our midgets or least dynamic big men.
You're dead right. I alluded to Kirifi earlier saying if he isn't winning turnovers, the what is he doing there as he can't carry at all, so why not make him a cleaner? He got jolted backwards in every carry he made and even lost the ball in his first.
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@Mauss said in All Blacks v France I:
@brodean said in All Blacks v France I:
He has the tools but I don't think its in his nature. It's difficult to teach an old dog new tricks and I feel that at 31 that's his instinct.
The carry stats are wrong and where I think we struggled in the game. The highlighted should not be carrying that much considering their roles.
Top Carries
18 Ardie Savea
17 Damian Mckenzie
15 Will Jordan
14 Beauden Barrett
13 Fabian HollandI do think Savea could be a good openside option, especially within Robertson’s system, which seems to be based around ball-movement, constantly shifting the point of attack and getting in behind the opposition defence. Due to the sheer dynamism of the attack – 259 passes, 9 offloads, 182 ball carries, 425 post-contact metres, 13 line-breaks against France – I think it’s very difficult for a classical openside to consistently stay close to the source without being exhausted after 10 minutes.
So what’s important for an openside in this system is game understanding, the ability to cut corners around the field and anticipate what’s going to happen. And I do think someone like Savea has an uncanny ability to see certain plays unfold before they’ve occurred, whether it’s a line-break or an opposition player becoming isolated. So I’d like to see him given an extended run in the jersey, and see whether he can adapt to the requirements.
But what Robertson does need to be mindful of, I think, in the upcoming tests is to have enough “fresh” carrying options on the field at all times. In the France game, Lio-Willie spent the opening 10 minutes of the 2nd half mostly just tackling and cleaning, which meant that Savea did most of the hard carries through the middle on his own. If Robertson goes to his bench earlier – bringing on Taukei’aho and Norris, for example, at halftime – then I think it would’ve been easier for Savea to share the carrying load and maintain his own energy levels.
The attack seemed quite different to me in this game vs last year. Jordie Barrett probably made as many passes in that game as he did in the whole of last season, and was frequently at first receiver too - this I really liked, especially with McKenzie on the field too - it's got to be hard to defend against. I don't like the Barbarians style 'score off every play' mindset though. Other teams will knuckle down when they've got inside the 22, apply pressure and more often that not get a penalty advantage and continue applying pressure until there's a card. We either score immediately or throw (kick) it away. To me that's a big part of why we get carded more than our opposition, which brings with it some of the embarrassing victimhood comments on here.
Your point about the 7 being knackered after 10 minutes I agree with - and to me, playing a lock at 6 is only going to make that worse - which seems like a muddling of tactics. It's made up for to some extent by all 3 locks having big motors and the rest of the tighties being busy, but still...
I've been banging the drum of starting Samisoni and finishing with Taylor to balance the carrying load for some time. If we're going to bring on Norris, Tosi, Finau, Samisoni, potentially Tuipolotu - it seems like the bench is full of powerful ball carriers, and we'd be better off having an extra one in the starting XV to balance that. -
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France I:
@Chris said in All Blacks v France I:
Finau for a big unit really added no impact in this game,He was passive in the tackle he got knocked back a few times.And went no where forward.
Even though Vai'i maybe found out as a bit slow at 6 in the harder games, he was 100% better than Finau.Hard disagree. He dropped an early one cold and I was ready to write him off.
But after that he ran fucking hard and made yards in tight. He has a future i think.
Nah didn’t see any of that to me he was pretty weak.
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@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
Holland's received a lot of praise but I was a little bit underwhelmed.
He didn't really put a foot wrong but he also didn't do anything to suggest he's a better option that Lord or Tuipulotu at this stage. I'm absolutely not saying he shouldn't be in there, I'm as keen to see him given a go as anyone else and I'd love for him to be the new Brodie Retallick, but I've not yet (yet is key, obviously) seen anything from Holland to suggest he's anything more than a safe pair of hands in the second row.
Again, very happy to get him getting some minutes and would certainly keep giving him time in the saddle, but it's a bit unfair that we expect the loose forward to all be dynamic carriers of the ball or threats at the breakdown when the bar for Holland seems so low?
He dominated the lineout in a way Tuipulotu couldn’t, and Lord hasn’t. He works hard and makes a ton of tackles (more than both those two).
What are you looking for from him? Locks don’t tend to make line breaks…
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Holland was great - secured ball and didn't stuff up and ran all day. I don't remember him going back at all in tackle or on deck - very secure. For a debut a safe pair of hands and dominance at lineout will do for me.
