What is decline?
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@stodders said in What is decline?:
I wasn’t around in 1971 when the Lions toured, but from what I have read and heard, it feels like NZ rugby is at similar seminal moment. People are questioning the ABs DNA, the quality of the player, the paucity of coaching acumen.
Graham Henry explicitly referenced that tour, and the response to it, when explaining what he wanted to do with the ABs in 2003.
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@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
More to the point of the thread, did we lose our identity on Saturday night?
I get reading too much in one result is 24-hour news cycle shit, but it wasn't just Saturday, more that felt like the culmination of a few years.
And this isn't just about us no longer being the all-time team we were a decade ago either.What exactly are the All Blacks known for now? Once, we were the team that owned the championship minutes either side of half time, and at the death. Our superior fitness and skill level allowed us to break teams with withering bursts of points. Yes our basics were very good, but that merely set the stage for our skill players to hammer home points in bursts and break teams.
There was a team on Saturday who did that, and it wasn't us. So if we aren't the fittest. And we aren't the most skilled. And we aren't the most dangerous. And we have a creaky set piece. And we don't kick well. What exactly are we? Does this AB team even have an identity any more?
This isn't just on Razor either, i didn't really know what we were and what we were trying to do under Fozzie either.
Lions test 1 in 2017.
That was what we could be when we needed to be.
We bludgeoned them up the guts.
Hansen even referred to it in his post match interview below.
"our ability to play off 9, and get in behind them stopped them doing what they wanted to do"
He then elaborates at 7 minutes...."we dont just play the flashy rugby we are known for, we play down and dirty if we need to"
"everyone says they are going to dominate our tight 5, but you dont get to be world number 1 for as long as we have with a poor tight 5, without sounding like we are bragging"
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Our best win in Razors tenure was over Ireland in Dublin.
With DMAC at 10.
Not saying correlation is causation, but its worth a footnote.
I think it's also important to note that we had one game driver. DMAC.
Jordan was the fullback and Damian ran the cutter. Beaudy was not in the squad.
We had DMAC, Beaudy and Ruben Love on the pitch at the same time last week.
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@Chris-B said in What is decline?:
@stodders That's the thing.
Where in our whole system do we still have competitive advantages compared to the rest of the world?
If that is the case, maybe it is time to bring in some outside influences. Are there any South African coaches who want to unlock the potential of the All Blacks like Tony Brown is doing for the Boks
Look at the Bok coaching team:
Rassie - South Africa
Jerry Flannery - Ireland
Tony Brown - NZ
Felix Jones - Ireland
Mzwandile Stick - South Africa
Deon Davids - South Africa
Daan Human - South AfricaThe Boks are back on top, and in order to stay there, they are harnessing some of the leading minds from around the world. This also helps develop the South African coaches within the coaching set up with the latest, greatest thinking.
If South Africa recognised they no longer had a mortgage on intellectual property, why should it be any different for NZ? The aim needs to be to return the ABs to being the no.1 ranked team. I think it is well past time for NZ to seek external influences to do that.
If that feels like an admission of failure, then so be it. Who cares. NZ rugby needs the best and brightest minds working together. There isn't a foreign coach that wouldn't be intrigued to work with the ABs because of the legacy of NZ rugby. NZRU should strike now whilst the attraction is still strong.
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@gt12 said in What is decline?:
This reminds of the days when guys like Zinzan couldn't get a good run (under a Canterbury coach....), then when a coach came along and found a way to take advantage of their skills, we suddenly could play rugby in the way that others may only dream of.
I don't want to be that guy ... as I be that guy.
The Cantab coach actually dropped Buck for Zinny, then the Otago coach refused to pick him until Fitzy convinced him to give him a chance.
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@Nepia said in What is decline?:
@gt12 said in What is decline?:
This reminds of the days when guys like Zinzan couldn't get a good run (under a Canterbury coach....), then when a coach came along and found a way to take advantage of their skills, we suddenly could play rugby in the way that others may only dream of.
I don't want to be that guy ... as I be that guy.
The Cantab coach actually dropped Buck for Zinny, then the Otago coach refused to pick him until Fitzy convinced him to give him a chance.
So all we need is a captain with balls?
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@gt12 said in What is decline?:
@Nepia said in What is decline?:
@gt12 said in What is decline?:
This reminds of the days when guys like Zinzan couldn't get a good run (under a Canterbury coach....), then when a coach came along and found a way to take advantage of their skills, we suddenly could play rugby in the way that others may only dream of.
I don't want to be that guy ... as I be that guy.
The Cantab coach actually dropped Buck for Zinny, then the Otago coach refused to pick him until Fitzy convinced him to give him a chance.
So all we need is a captain with balls?
It isn’t a mandatory requirement. I think a captain with conviction would be better
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@stodders said in What is decline?:
Reasons (IMO) for the ABs relative decline (in reality, firmly in the pack, no leaders):
When there was no marketplace for talent internationally, there was little difficulty retaining the best, the experienced and the up and coming youth. Professionalism has led to exodus of talent from NZ rugby.
Professionalism has also led to a significant loss of IP from NZ rugby. NZ’s best minds used to reside solely in NZ. The thinking, the innovation, the coaching, the psychology - all the sole preserve of NZ rugby and its coaches and players.
NZ players have always been above average (not always the best mind), but for me, it was NZ coaching and their ability to innovate and adapt (both tactics and skill sets) that has always been the key aspect of NZ’s ability to stay ahead of the rest of the world. This doesn’t feel like it is true anymore. NZ rugby coaching exceptionalism has been eroded over time. I mean, when things go wrong, Wayne Smith has to be parachuted in to correct things at the Black Ferns and the ABs.
The ABs haven’t always had the best players in each era, but their teams were generally able to play as a collective at a higher level than the sum of their parts. The collective, the team, was the most important thing. Individuals were encouraged to show their magic, but always within the framework of what the team needed. It feels like there is too much onus on individual magic in NZ rugby rather than a focus on the overall machine working efficiently, with each cog doing its job to perfection.
I wasn’t around in 1971 when the Lions toured, but from what I have read and heard, it feels like NZ rugby is at similar seminal moment. People are questioning the ABs DNA, the quality of the player, the paucity of coaching acumen.
This is greater than just Razor and the current coaches. It is a systemic issue that runs right through everything that made NZ rugby the greatest rugby nation in earth.
Adapt or die? That is the question.
Yup. The early 70s were a tough time for the All Blacks.
Series defeat in SA in 70, lions loss the following year and then the northern tour of 72/73 which was a bit of a shambles with the nadir being the infamous Murdoch incident.
The mentality of the All Blacks was questioned during that time too - when Colin Meads presented Grant Batty with player of the year honours in 73 he says something along the lines of "if only more players had Battys mentality NZ rugby would be in a much better place".
I think it can rebound, just need to go back to the drawing board and look at what can be improved upon and there is quite a few areas. For one, the process of selecting and hiring AB coaches has to be more professional and more thorough. There needs to be a concerted effort to repatriate NZs excellent rugby minds. I would think in terms of losing McMillan to Munster as a loss for NZ and a gain for Ireland.
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Don’t lose heart or hope boys
You’re not Wales
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@Nepia said in What is decline?:
@gt12 said in What is decline?:
This reminds of the days when guys like Zinzan couldn't get a good run (under a Canterbury coach....), then when a coach came along and found a way to take advantage of their skills, we suddenly could play rugby in the way that others may only dream of.
I don't want to be that guy ... as I be that guy.
The Cantab coach actually dropped Buck for Zinny, then the Otago coach refused to pick him until Fitzy convinced him to give him a chance.
Is there a story about how Mains called Zinny because he was trying to get hold of Robin or something along those lines? I seem to recall reading that or may have heard it on a podcast.
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This is a tough read if you are an AB fan. Bishop’s comments below the article are too. But bang on the money IMO.
'There can be only one' - Why South Africa are still the best team in the world
If there was any uncertainty, the Springboks' Wellington rout reaffirmed their status atop rugby's Mount Olympus.
This section in particular really hit home my post above about creating a coaching team of all talents from anywhere, not limiting just to NZ:
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@stodders said in What is decline?:
I wasn’t around in 1971 when the Lions toured, but from what I have read and heard, it feels like NZ rugby is at similar seminal moment. People are questioning the ABs DNA, the quality of the player, the paucity of coaching acumen.
Now that you bring it up, there are corollaries with what’s happening now and the early 1970’s.
Pretty much thru out the 1960’s NZ had held the No. 1 ranking; and reached their zenith with Fred Allen’s unbeaten run as coach (66 to 68).
Played a nice, 15 man power game, led by hard men like Colin Meads and Ken Gray.But Allen was not an establishment guy (gotta like that) and didn’t mind upsetting an administrator.
That sure doesn’t happen now.
He jumped in 1968.He was replaced by Vodanovich (an associate of the NZRFU chairman) and he presided over the decline.
Beaten in SA in 1970 and by the Lions in 1971.
Kind of shooting ourselves in the foot; great admin work!
NZ still held the No. 1 ranking after defeat by SA in 1970 (the rankings work like that) but in 1971 the Saffers took over at the top. This was the first time SA had been No. 1 since 1962, spending nearly a decade back in the ranks.New Zealand probably didn’t reach the dominance of the 1960’s again until the late 1980’s.
Swapping No. 1 back and forth with SA for the intervening, becoming dominant when SA got the boot.Although the Brits were definitely No. 1 in 1974; their highest point since ancient times. But the Lions don’t count in the rankings.
I’d say currently; New Zealand had slipped back into the pack by about 2019. And we’ve been bouncing around in there ever since.
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Just a note of positivity that might give some optimism.
The AB try was a thing of beauty.
90 seconds of possession, 28 passes, one cross kick, 12 of the 15 players touched the ball ..... The ball traveled across the full width of the pitch over 4 times.
Im not sure any other country can score that try. Maybe they could but I think there is still exceptionalism in kiwi rugby with regards to the skills.
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@nonpartizan said in What is decline?:
Just a note of positivity that might give some optimism.
The AB try was a thing of beauty.
90 seconds of possession, 28 passes, one cross kick, 12 of the 15 players touched the ball ..... The ball traveled across the full width of the pitch over 4 times.
Im not sure any other country can score that try. Maybe they could but I think there is still exceptionalism in kiwi rugby with regards to the skills.
I feel like we are underperforming as opposed to there being a gulf developing. We show glimpses of our true potential. But our tactics and selection are holding us back. Us rolling over on Saturday was particularly galling
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@nonpartizan We got smashed by 33 points. The All Blacks scored one try, but the Springboks opposition scored six. There's no points for style. There's no sugar-coating that we got annihilated.
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@stodders said in What is decline?:
@Chris-B said in What is decline?:
@stodders That's the thing.
Where in our whole system do we still have competitive advantages compared to the rest of the world?
If that is the case, maybe it is time to bring in some outside influences. Are there any South African coaches who want to unlock the potential of the All Blacks like Tony Brown is doing for the Boks
Look at the Bok coaching team:
Rassie - South Africa
Jerry Flannery - Ireland
Tony Brown - NZ
Felix Jones - Ireland
Mzwandile Stick - South Africa
Deon Davids - South Africa
Daan Human - South AfricaThe Boks are back on top, and in order to stay there, they are harnessing some of the leading minds from around the world. This also helps develop the South African coaches within the coaching set up with the latest, greatest thinking.
If South Africa recognised they no longer had a mortgage on intellectual property, why should it be any different for NZ? The aim needs to be to return the ABs to being the no.1 ranked team. I think it is well past time for NZ to seek external influences to do that.
If that feels like an admission of failure, then so be it. Who cares. NZ rugby needs the best and brightest minds working together. There isn't a foreign coach that wouldn't be intrigued to work with the ABs because of the legacy of NZ rugby. NZRU should strike now whilst the attraction is still strong.
Although this seems like a smart thing to do, it will likely not happen for many years if ever. The reality is that your team had made it back to #1 in the world, that is pretty good. The brains trust will find reasons to persist….and that may well pay off.
