What is decline?
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Fact is in the modern game our talent pool is no longer superior to other teams, in fact it's the opposite, it is a lot shallower than teams like France and SA. So we just absolutely cannot afford to squander talent away, but right now we have immature coaches that let personal beef and provincial bias affect their selections, and it's really hurting us.
The loosies is such a perfect example. These guys had access to Akira Ioane, Dalton Papali'i and Hoskins Sotutu, but all three have either been completely snubbed or barely sighted. This is three blokes with plenty of experience all hitting their prime, who destroyed every other trio at Super level playing a style of footy akin to the next level up.
The point of my post isn't that they should be our starting trio, the point is that if you add those three to our current stocks, we suddenly look very strong. But instead they've been inexplicably snubbed with vague references to both sides of the ball to justify it, so we are left with only the loosies that those guys dominated, and we're filling gaps with players like Blackadder or Kirifi who will never dominate at this level.
And the end result? Our loosies under Razor have been outplayed by the other Tier 1 sides nearly every single match. 6 is a mess, and I feel sorry for whoever does play there as we're pairing them up with two 8s who don't do the dirty work! All because our coaches can't bring themselves to pick the best 7 in the country.
I can't understand how NZR can let this stand in a professional organisation. The sooner we move these clown coaches on the sooner we can start rebuilding the ABs. Until then, it'll be more of the same bullshit they've served up so far.
We're contributing to our own decline when we are already battling external forces pulling our talent overseas. It's beyond frustrating to watch.
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@Kiwiwomble you could go with Roigard & Savea & 8 &9 from there Hurricane days Jordy and Proctor in the midfield. The Blues back 3 with Will Jordan
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I wonder if the decline is systemic in that so many New Zealanders are playing and coaching OS, so the competition to progress to first class rugby isn't there to the extent it used to be.
I am constantly surprised to see technical deficiencies in players though. How can up and coming scrum halves not model their passing on Aaron Smith? How do backline players not have a Cory fend, Ma'a wide ranging skillset and Dagg like security for the high ball?
But putting that aside, there's the selection ethos of the current coach who shuns outstanding competence in a position for the ability to play multiple? So instead of the bench being a risk management exercise, the entire team is from the loose forwards backwards.
We don't have that many players good enough to play multiple positions to Test standard.
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@rewa267 said in What is decline?:
I think the All Blacks should select the team more on combinations to create a level of cohesion. For example the chiefs 8, 9, 10,12,13 combination. Siti, Ratima, Dmac,
Tupea & Lienert-Brown.LOL. Fuck no.
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@antipodean said in What is decline?:
@rewa267 said in What is decline?:
I think the All Blacks should select the team more on combinations to create a level of cohesion. For example the chiefs 8, 9, 10,12,13 combination. Siti, Ratima, Dmac,
Tupea & Lienert-Brown.LOL. Fuck no.
Fuck I hoping that ship is sailing his time is done.
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@antipodean said in What is decline?:
I wonder if the decline is systemic in that so many New Zealanders are playing and coaching OS, so the competition to progress to first class rugby isn't there to the extent it used to be.
I am constantly surprised to see technical deficiencies in players though. How can up and coming scrum halves not model their passing on Aaron Smith? How do backline players not have a Cory fend, Ma'a wide ranging skillset and Dagg like security for the high ball?
But putting that aside, there's the selection ethos of the current coach who shuns outstanding competence in a position for the ability to play multiple? So instead of the bench being a risk management exercise, the entire team is from the loose forwards backwards.
We don't have that many players good enough to play multiple positions to Test standard.
Watch the Bok, Argie and even the Wallabies backline passing. Done at pace, from depth, in front of the player and often running into space.
It's quite the contrast watching us play.
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@gt12 said in What is decline?:
Mick the Kick was skills coach and left when they wouldn’t upgrade him to assistant.
I think we can age our skills decline that far back.
You're right but that begs another question
Why hasn't there been a replacement for Byrne generated from the NZ system? It gets worse when you consider that Byrne came from an AFL background
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@Chris said in What is decline?:
@antipodean said in What is decline?:
@rewa267 said in What is decline?:
I think the All Blacks should select the team more on combinations to create a level of cohesion. For example the chiefs 8, 9, 10,12,13 combination. Siti, Ratima, Dmac,
Tupea & Lienert-Brown.LOL. Fuck no.
Fuck I hoping that ship is sailing his time is done.
He can take a seat with BB as well
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@Kruse said in What is decline?:
@Mauss said in What is decline?:
...both facets of the game aren’t complimentary of each other. ...
complementary
Yes - it's pedantic-as-all-shit considering the rest of the excellent post, but...
Precision is what's lacking at the moment.....
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@Kruse said in What is decline?:
complementary
Yes - it's pedantic-as-all-shit considering the rest of the excellent post, but...
As a fellow pedant, I think that's a more than fair comment. The fact that I missed it is going to annoy me for a good while, though.
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@Duluth said in What is decline?:
@gt12 said in What is decline?:
Mick the Kick was skills coach and left when they wouldn’t upgrade him to assistant.
I think we can age our skills decline that far back.
You're right but that begs another question
Why hasn't there been a replacement for Byrne generated from the NZ system? It gets worse when you consider that Byrne came from an AFL background
Lazy lazy lazy
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@Duluth said in What is decline?:
I think the more interesting point is that a few years ago there would've been a few loosies in NZ with that skillset. Now we are down to one and probably soon it will be zero
I think basic skill execution has been on a downward trend for quite a while now. It’s not just important to have a certain skill but also that you know how and when to use it. You see it in age grade rugby a lot as well, the amount of times players mess up a simple two-on-one just because they needlessly throw in a pump fake blows my mind. To me, that just indicates they don’t understand the purpose and reasoning behind their skillset.
This, I think, relates to another point, which is a player’s preparation and study. The ABs seem capable of doing the work for a big game (Dublin last year, Eden Park this year) but they seem incapable of doing it on a weekly basis. The NZ rugby culture needs to start valuing preparation and player self-development much more, also for games which aren’t seemingly crucial. The amount of lazy errors you see in NPC rugby or regular season SRP games to me is a pretty good indication of this.
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@Mauss said in What is decline?:
@Duluth said in What is decline?:
I think the more interesting point is that a few years ago there would've been a few loosies in NZ with that skillset. Now we are down to one and probably soon it will be zero
I think basic skill execution has been on a downward trend for quite a while now. It’s not just important to have a certain skill but also that you know how and when to use it. You see it in age grade rugby a lot as well, the amount of times players mess up a simple two-on-one just because they needlessly throw in a pump fake blows my mind. To me, that just indicates they don’t understand the purpose and reasoning behind their skillset.
This, I think, relates to another point, which is a player’s preparation and study. The ABs seem capable of doing the work for a big game (Dublin last year, Eden Park this year) but they seem incapable of doing it on a weekly basis. The NZ rugby culture needs to start valuing preparation and player self-development much more, also for games which aren’t seemingly crucial. The amount of lazy errors you see in NPC rugby or regular season SRP games to me is a pretty good indication of this.
It might be endemic of this generation. Watch school boy basketball games and see kids going one on five or jacking up 3s and playing no defence all the time. No one respects the fundamentals anymore
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@canefan said in What is decline?:
@Mauss said in What is decline?:
@Duluth said in What is decline?:
I think the more interesting point is that a few years ago there would've been a few loosies in NZ with that skillset. Now we are down to one and probably soon it will be zero
I think basic skill execution has been on a downward trend for quite a while now. It’s not just important to have a certain skill but also that you know how and when to use it. You see it in age grade rugby a lot as well, the amount of times players mess up a simple two-on-one just because they needlessly throw in a pump fake blows my mind. To me, that just indicates they don’t understand the purpose and reasoning behind their skillset.
This, I think, relates to another point, which is a player’s preparation and study. The ABs seem capable of doing the work for a big game (Dublin last year, Eden Park this year) but they seem incapable of doing it on a weekly basis. The NZ rugby culture needs to start valuing preparation and player self-development much more, also for games which aren’t seemingly crucial. The amount of lazy errors you see in NPC rugby or regular season SRP games to me is a pretty good indication of this.
It might be endemic of this generation. Watch school boy basketball games and see kids going one on five or jacking up 3s and playing no defence all the time. No one respects the fundamentals anymore
I mean I don't think it's a generation thing, considering our best players currently who have performed against the biggest opposition are all our youngest and from the newest gen (Vaai/Roigard/Sititi).
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@Kirwan Sititi was literally the best player in the country last year.
This year he has come back 10kgs heavier (at the request of the ABs coaches) and has lost all the dynamism and lateral movement that he had last year.
Hopefully common sense prevails and he gets back to his optimal weight.
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Reasons (IMO) for the ABs relative decline (in reality, firmly in the pack, no leaders):
When there was no marketplace for talent internationally, there was little difficulty retaining the best, the experienced and the up and coming youth. Professionalism has led to exodus of talent from NZ rugby.
Professionalism has also led to a significant loss of IP from NZ rugby. NZ’s best minds used to reside solely in NZ. The thinking, the innovation, the coaching, the psychology - all the sole preserve of NZ rugby and its coaches and players.
NZ players have always been above average (not always the best mind), but for me, it was NZ coaching and their ability to innovate and adapt (both tactics and skill sets) that has always been the key aspect of NZ’s ability to stay ahead of the rest of the world. This doesn’t feel like it is true anymore. NZ rugby coaching exceptionalism has been eroded over time. I mean, when things go wrong, Wayne Smith has to be parachuted in to correct things at the Black Ferns and the ABs.
The ABs haven’t always had the best players in each era, but their teams were generally able to play as a collective at a higher level than the sum of their parts. The collective, the team, was the most important thing. Individuals were encouraged to show their magic, but always within the framework of what the team needed. It feels like there is too much onus on individual magic in NZ rugby rather than a focus on the overall machine working efficiently, with each cog doing its job to perfection.
I wasn’t around in 1971 when the Lions toured, but from what I have read and heard, it feels like NZ rugby is at similar seminal moment. People are questioning the ABs DNA, the quality of the player, the paucity of coaching acumen.
This is greater than just Razor and the current coaches. It is a systemic issue that runs right through everything that made NZ rugby the greatest rugby nation in earth.
Adapt or die? That is the question.
