Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2
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@MN5 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
Can we have some stats on Parker @Mauss ?
I haven’t particularly focused on Parker during this game so I can’t really add anything beyond what is generally available (very rudimentary overview: 2 carries for 0 post-contact metres made, 5 tackles with two misses, no dominant tackles nor tackle busts, 1 turnover lost without any won. So yeah.. pretty bad).
He looked like he was struggling out there, in terms of timing and physicality. It's unfortunate because I thought he played well against the Wallabies. Hopefully he has a better showing in the next few Tests. But I can imagine Sititi getting a shot at 6, especially against England, as the latter play with an extremely mobile back row (Pepper - Underhill - Earl, as well as Curry and Pollock).
@Mauss said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@MN5 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
Can we have some stats on Parker @Mauss ?
I haven’t particularly focused on Parker during this game so I can’t really add anything beyond what is generally available (very rudimentary overview: 2 carries for 0 post-contact metres made, 5 tackles with two misses, no dominant tackles nor tackle busts, 1 turnover lost without any won. So yeah.. pretty bad).
He looked like he was struggling out there, in terms of timing and physicality. It's unfortunate because I thought he played well against the Wallabies. Hopefully he has a better showing in the next few Tests. But I can imagine Sititi getting a shot at 6, especially against England, as the latter play with an extremely mobile back row (Pepper - Underhill - Earl, as well as Curry and Pollock).
On paper that is really poor. Like a bigger more anonymous Rueben Thorne. Was kinda hoping for an Owen Finegan/Andre Venter type effort.
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@MiketheSnow said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@Tim said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@MiketheSnow said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
The mitigation was it was a forward pass
That is a unique excuse. No one else saw it, nor did would it have impacted the tackle situation.
Come on ...
Kelleher asked the ref to look at the pass. Ref didn't.
Beirne wasn't set up to tackle. He was set up to brace for impact from a dummy runner.
Then it changed in an instant and he made head contact in the collision.
It certainly wasn't a tackle.
The game is ass at the moment
@canefan said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
The game is ass at the moment
@MiketheSnow said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
The officials and majority on here felt otherwise and it was deemed a RC offence
The precedent in the RWC final is that head clashes, no matter how unintentional, are red cards. So just be consistent.
narrator voice: the refs were not consistent
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@ploughboy safer but no dominant tackles, doesn't stop off loads
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@Mauss said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@MN5 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
Can we have some stats on Parker @Mauss ?
I haven’t particularly focused on Parker during this game so I can’t really add anything beyond what is generally available (very rudimentary overview: 2 carries for 0 post-contact metres made, 5 tackles with two misses, no dominant tackles nor tackle busts, 1 turnover lost without any won. So yeah.. pretty bad).
He looked like he was struggling out there, in terms of timing and physicality. It's unfortunate because I thought he played well against the Wallabies. Hopefully he has a better showing in the next few Tests. But I can imagine Sititi getting a shot at 6, especially against England, as the latter play with an extremely mobile back row (Pepper - Underhill - Earl, as well as Curry and Pollock).
On paper that is really poor. Like a bigger more anonymous Rueben Thorne. Was kinda hoping for an Owen Finegan/Andre Venter type effort.
@MN5 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
On paper that is really poor. Like a bigger more anonymous Rueben Thorne. Was kinda hoping for an Owen Finegan/Andre Venter type effort.
Stats never tell the whole story but I think it's fair to say he didn't have his best outing.
It took Parker a while to find his feet at Super Rugby-level so it's not surprising he can be a bit inconsistent at Test-level. I think he's eventually going to be a very good player - whether that's Finegan/Venter-level good, that I don't know - but it might take some time.
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I've only just got around to watching this. To those who are trying to be positive about the margin, well, that's an Irish team in decline with an early red card, and they've had to chance their arm late.
Worst lineout performance from the usually rock-solid Taylor I can recall. New combinations not working (which fucking gets my dander up when Caleb Clarke says they've just basically had the week off!), but also not-straights.
Beauden Barrett is still being defended and picked when he is making mistakes that would see you dropped at schoolboy level. Great little pop pass to a beautiful line from McKenzie for the try, but the rest was pretty much slop.
The Irish were really mediocre. Poor kicking (apart from the excellent JGP), really poor lineout, poor scrum, lots of knock-ons (that's you James Lowe ya cockhead).
I wasn't surprised the card turned red, but I think it's really harsh. The Irish guy didn't think he was making a tackle at all. BB didn't think he was getting the ball. The Irish captain was right, the pass was forward, which put them both in a collision they weren't prepared for. It was accidental, and I'd be much happier if that was yellow.
One last comment - the whinging on here from NZers, and the sense of victimhood has become a goddamned fucking disgrace. Especially when combined with constantly calling the Irish out for exactly that. I know it's frustrating that we're a bit shit, but harden up you bunch of fluffybunnies, you're embarrassing.@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
I've only just got around to watching this. To those who are trying to be positive about the margin, well, that's an Irish team in decline with an early red card, and they've had to chance their arm late.
Worst lineout performance from the usually rock-solid Taylor I can recall. New combinations not working (which fucking gets my dander up when Caleb Clarke says they've just basically had the week off!), but also not-straights.
Beauden Barrett is still being defended and picked when he is making mistakes that would see you dropped at schoolboy level. Great little pop pass to a beautiful line from McKenzie for the try, but the rest was pretty much slop.
The Irish were really mediocre. Poor kicking (apart from the excellent JGP), really poor lineout, poor scrum, lots of knock-ons (that's you James Lowe ya cockhead).
I wasn't surprised the card turned red, but I think it's really harsh. The Irish guy didn't think he was making a tackle at all. BB didn't think he was getting the ball. The Irish captain was right, the pass was forward, which put them both in a collision they weren't prepared for. It was accidental, and I'd be much happier if that was yellow.
One last comment - the whinging on here from NZers, and the sense of victimhood has become a goddamned fucking disgrace. Especially when combined with constantly calling the Irish out for exactly that. I know it's frustrating that we're a bit shit, but harden up you bunch of fluffybunnies, you're embarrassing.That BB to Mackenzie type of play is something they should be trying to set up more frequently. Mackenzies acceleration when he comes into the line is superb and his timing is also excellent. He explodes onto the ball.
A very similar situation occurred in Wellington 2nd half v Boks where Mackenzie was coming fast into the line and the ABs had numbers...... Unfortunately BB didn't pass and took the ball into contact.
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@MN5 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
On paper that is really poor. Like a bigger more anonymous Rueben Thorne. Was kinda hoping for an Owen Finegan/Andre Venter type effort.
Stats never tell the whole story but I think it's fair to say he didn't have his best outing.
It took Parker a while to find his feet at Super Rugby-level so it's not surprising he can be a bit inconsistent at Test-level. I think he's eventually going to be a very good player - whether that's Finegan/Venter-level good, that I don't know - but it might take some time.
@Mauss said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@MN5 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
On paper that is really poor. Like a bigger more anonymous Rueben Thorne. Was kinda hoping for an Owen Finegan/Andre Venter type effort.
Stats never tell the whole story but I think it's fair to say he didn't have his best outing.
It took Parker a while to find his feet at Super Rugby-level so it's not surprising he can be a bit inconsistent at Test-level. I think he's eventually going to be a very good player - whether that's Finegan/Venter-level good, that I don't know - but it might take some time.
I threw them in as I thought they were Thornes era but they're actually slightly before.
With all this talk of loosies being too short it's ridiculous they have a guy as tall as Parker and not use him as a lineout option.
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@Bones said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@MiketheSnow said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@Tim said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@MiketheSnow said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
The mitigation was it was a forward pass
That is a unique excuse. No one else saw it, nor did would it have impacted the tackle situation.
Come on ...
Kelleher asked the ref to look at the pass. Ref didn't.
Beirne wasn't set up to tackle. He was set up to brace for impact from a dummy runner.
Then it changed in an instant and he made head contact in the collision.
It certainly wasn't a tackle.
Sir, that is the most fucked up turnaround I've seen in a while. Any colour other than black and you would be the strongest voice saying the defender must do better.
I did say that
I felt it was a YC for the reasons I stated
The officials and majority on here felt otherwise and it was deemed a RC offence
I accepted it
Doesn’t mean I have to like it
@MiketheSnow said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@Bones said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@MiketheSnow said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@Tim said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@MiketheSnow said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
The mitigation was it was a forward pass
That is a unique excuse. No one else saw it, nor did would it have impacted the tackle situation.
Come on ...
Kelleher asked the ref to look at the pass. Ref didn't.
Beirne wasn't set up to tackle. He was set up to brace for impact from a dummy runner.
Then it changed in an instant and he made head contact in the collision.
It certainly wasn't a tackle.
Sir, that is the most fucked up turnaround I've seen in a while. Any colour other than black and you would be the strongest voice saying the defender must do better.
I did say that
I felt it was a YC for the reasons I stated
The officials and majority on here felt otherwise and it was deemed a RC offence
I accepted it
Doesn’t mean I have to like it
The only mitigation you have come up with is that he didn't think Beauden would get the ball, but that makes it worse! If Beauden didn't receive the pass, then it's a no arms shoulder to the head of a player that didn't even have the ball! His technique was extremely poor, that was one of the more clear cut reds I've seen and I am so surprised anyone is arguing against it.
Either we change the rules and don't red card players for head contact like that, or we implement the rules consistently. People in this thread were "happy" it was given red because that is clearly what the rules state; so often it is reffed inconsistently which brings the game into disrepute.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@Richie8-7 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
yes, it was horrific. And pretty shocking how badly they threw in the towel. I don't think we're as bad as that result though
Horrific is an understatement.
I've been watching since '71 and never, ever seen an AB team simply give up like that. It was the worst AB performance I've ever seen by some margin. And the worrying thing is too many people simply shrugged their shoulders.
My thoughts after that match was that a loss at Eden Park to Australia is the last straw for Razor. Like losing a series at home against Ireland should have been it for Foster (although based on the Irish reaction on social media in the last 48 hours, we could claim to be robbed by a red card in the Dunedin test). Since Wellington we've beaten Australia and Ireland away (Chicago is away as far as I'm concerned). If we win a grand slam, then he'll have appeared to have corrected course. If we lose to England, he's still in purgatory. If we lose to England and Scotland and/or Wales, then we need to throw a bag full of cash and a dozen hookers at Schmidt.
@Richie8-7 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@Richie8-7 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
yes, it was horrific. And pretty shocking how badly they threw in the towel. I don't think we're as bad as that result though
Horrific is an understatement.
I've been watching since '71 and never, ever seen an AB team simply give up like that. It was the worst AB performance I've ever seen by some margin. And the worrying thing is too many people simply shrugged their shoulders.
My thoughts after that match was that a loss at Eden Park to Australia is the last straw for Razor. Like losing a series at home against Ireland should have been it for Foster (although based on the Irish reaction on social media in the last 48 hours, we could claim to be robbed by a red card in the Dunedin test). Since Wellington we've beaten Australia and Ireland away (Chicago is away as far as I'm concerned). If we win a grand slam, then he'll have appeared to have corrected course. If we lose to England, he's still in purgatory. If we lose to England and Scotland and/or Wales, then we need to throw a bag full of cash and a dozen hookers at Schmidt.
My thoughts after that match weren't about Robertson. We may have lost at home to Ireland (the no.1 team in the world) but we never stopped trying.
We did in Wellington - and that's the difference.
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@Tim said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
Rewatched the 1st half. We really get very little out of our loose forwards. Despite being a man up for 20 mins, they were hardly hitting rucks. Let alone making aggressive tackles. It looks like Tupaea, Faingaʻanuku, and even Clarke had better breakdown technique. Savea is absolutely not a 7.
The Savea-at-openside discussion is interesting. To be honest, I don’t think it makes a whole lot of difference what number Savea is wearing on his back, he pretty much plays his game whether he’s wearing 7 or 8 (or 6 or 12...). If you’d look at the table here, who’d you reckon the openside would be and who’d be the 8?
Guess the player: carries, post-contact metres, tackles completed, attacking rucks attended, defensive rucks attended and turnovers wonPlayer B has all the hallmarks of your classic number 8: double figures in carries and tackles, significant post-contact metres and multiple defenders beaten. Player A, on the other hand, fits more the profile of an openside: more rucks attended than carries, with less impact made per carry.
In case you’re still wondering: these are the numbers of Savea and Lakai against the Irish in Chicago, with Savea being player B and Lakai being player A. So while Savea is ‘technically’ wearing the openside-jersey, he is very much playing like a 7/8-hybrid right now (his 17 rucks attended and 2 pilfers being a solid contribution at the breakdown, as well).
And let me get ahead of critiques of Lakai’s “low numbers”: Lakai was effectively acting as the defensive ‘key’ throughout the game, connecting the ruck defence with the defensive line as third defender out from the ruck, shutting down opposition backline moves (his charge down of Gibson-Park is a good example of this, as defensive work that doesn’t show up on the stat sheet). As a result, he was continuously all over the pitch, making reads and shutting down potential gaps in the line. It’s typically one of the roles given to a mobile openside.
So why the numbers?
So why not just put Lakai in the openside-jersey and Savea in the number 8? This is just my own speculation but if I were to hazard a guess, it’s an attempt at turning both Savea and Lakai into more complete players. The ABs are trying to implement a very fluid structure, where everyone can fill into another’s role, whether it’s as a cleaner, as a carrier or as a playmaker (the Savea-try, with de Groot and Lord in the attacking line being a good example of this).Savea, if put at 8, does have a tendency to abandon some of his other responsibilities. By putting him at openside, you could argue that he’s forced to play closer to the breakdown, balancing out his natural tendency to drift to the edge.
Funnily enough, Lakai has the opposite tendency: when playing at openside, the Hurricanes loose forward can become too focused on his support role, foregoing his own carrying ability. He's often been rather anonymous when playing at 7 for the Hurricanes, unable to complement his openside-role with his excellent carrying ability. By putting him at 8, he’s being forced to balance the two (Sidenote: Papali’i has a similar issue, where he can find it difficult to involve himself beyond the team's structures; his low contribution of 3 carries for the AB XV against the Barbarians would be another example of this).
Those are just my own observations and speculations on why Savea and Lakai are wearing their current jersey numbers, I could be totally off. But it (kind of) makes sense to me. Either way, in reality, Savea is certainly fulfilling the role of a number 8.
And finally, the loose forwards as a whole
I’ll agree that the AB loose forward-mix is a work in progress but I don’t agree with this idea that they’re consistently being outplayed. Against Ireland, the AB loose forward group thoroughly outplayed their counterparts on attack, carrying more, making more metres, beating more defenders, and winning the turnover battle.
Irish and AB loose forward involvements: carries, post-contact metres, defenders beaten, offloads, turnovers won/lost, tackles completed/missed, and dominant tacklingIt is only on the defensive side that the Irish loose forwards were more involved, putting in double the tackles while only missing two. But that is also the result of the Irish inability to win the possession-battle, especially in the 2nd half. They were unable to force the ABs into turnovers, allowing the latter to build rucks and pressure in their own half.
This ties in with another often-heard claim about the AB loose forwards losing the breakdown battle. Throughout the Rugby Championship and now this Test against Ireland, the ABs have typically come out on top when it comes to turnovers won (+1.3 on average), lost (-3.3 on average) and rucks lost (-0.6).
Possession and breakdown stats: turnovers won, turnovers lost, rucks won, and rucks lostThat means that the ABs win the ball more often, lose it less than their opponents and lose less rucks than their opponents on average.
By far the biggest stumbling block throughout the Rugby Championship is that the ABs have not built enough rucks to accumulate pressure on their opponents. They’ve averaged around 10 rucks less formed than their opponents, which has given them insufficient opportunities to score. That means that they’ve kicked away too much possession that they haven’t been able to regather. This doesn't mean that the ABs have to kick less; it simply means that they have to kick better.
The balance was better against the Irish, with 23 more rucks formed than their opponent. The ball-carrying and -retention from the bench is a huge factor in this regard as well, with Sititi (8 carries, 45 post-contact metres), Taukei’aho (3 carries, 14 post-contact metres) and McKenzie (8 passes, no kicks) providing lots of impetus in this regard. It’s a template that Robertson will want to expand on during the tour. But that means keeping the scores close for the first 60 minutes, before overwhelming your opponent in the final quarter through set piece- and carrying-dominance.
The loose forward-duo of Savea and Lakai - with their breakdown disruption (8 defensive rucks attended) and defensive mobility (18 tackles with zero misses) - seem set to continue in this regard.
@Mauss re the loose forward comparison vs Ireland - the red card has to make a big difference there. The Irish were buggered late in the game, they had to make a lot of tackles as you point out. Also the fact that it was Beirne, who is an extra loose forward for them, and one of their best.
Sititi came on and dominated late - looks like if you take out his carry metres, the Irish had more? So are we really doing the right thing with our starting loosies? -
Gotta love people coming in after the fact and acting like they knew we'd win, instead of putting their balls on the block and posting live during the game with all the emotion that entails. These threads would be boring as fuck if everyone waited until the game had finished before being brave enough to share their thoughts.
@No-Quarter said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
Gotta love people coming in after the fact and acting like they knew we'd win, instead of putting their balls on the block and posting live during the game with all the emotion that entails. These threads would be boring as fuck if everyone waited until the game had finished before being brave enough to share their thoughts.
Im already fucking disgusted with next Saturdays performance against Scotland.
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@Tim said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@MiketheSnow said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
The mitigation was it was a forward pass
That is a unique excuse. No one else saw it, nor did would it have impacted the tackle situation.
Come on ...
Kelleher asked the ref to look at the pass. Ref didn't.
Beirne wasn't set up to tackle. He was set up to brace for impact from a dummy runner.
Then it changed in an instant and he made head contact in the collision.
It certainly wasn't a tackle.
@MiketheSnow said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@Tim said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@MiketheSnow said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
The mitigation was it was a forward pass
That is a unique excuse. No one else saw it, nor did would it have impacted the tackle situation.
Come on ...
Kelleher asked the ref to look at the pass. Ref didn't.
Beirne wasn't set up to tackle. He was set up to brace for impact from a dummy runner.
Then it changed in an instant and he made head contact in the collision.
It certainly wasn't a tackle.
Sheehan asked.
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Anyway, call me naive but I am feeling a bit more positive after the Ireland match. I've decided to put my grumpy hat away and try and focus on the positives here, well at least until we lose to Scotland, then my pitch fork will come out again with a vengeance.
Neither team were good in the first 60, the small field and confusion with the ref certainly didn't help. We can't afford to be that poor again or we will find ourselves too far behind, but, that final 20 was like AB teams of the past. We just finished all over them and it could very well have been 33-13 such was our dominance at the end. That is a hiding no matter how bad we played for the first 60.
The big positives for me were:
- Leicester was absolutely superb, I'll begrudgingly give that one to Razor, he has come back a much more complete player than before he left our shores. He is going to cause massive headaches for defenses, as I mentioned in the match thread, very SBW like in that he is strong in contact and can almost always free his arms for the offload. The likes of Jordan, Clarke and Carter should be on his shoulder every time he gets the ball.
- Clarke back to his best, and he was actually given some space on the outside as Leicester was attracting a lot of attention. We look so much more dangerous with a fully fit and firing Clarke on the wing.
- Sititi is working his way back into some very nice form and could wreck havoc on the final 20 - 30 minutes from the bench. Has the potential to be a real weapon for us in that role.
- Lakai. He is hugely underrated on this forum, he is far more powerful than the likes of Kirifi and the more he plays, the better he is going to get. His ceiling is a mile high IMO and I can see him being our long term 8. He was "quiet" in this match in that he didn't make any blockbusting runs, but he was the glue on defense around the ruck and I think he actually compliments Savea well. We just need more from our 6...
- The bench impact from our tighties was awesome, loved seeing ST making some of his characteristic barnstorming runs, and the props just dominated their opponents who had no answers at all. The bench is so important in the modern game, and we have the makings of a seriously potent one with the likes of ST, Tosi, Williams and Sititi. Add Pat T to that mix and we are going to be bloody hard to contain at the back end of a test.
- DMac did exactly what the coaches wanted from the bench, come on and inject some pace and energy against a tiring defense. He and BB actually linked up very well in the "dual" player maker role and the try that blew the game open was superb - the pop pass was magic and the timing of DMacs run absolutely perfect. Poetry in motion.
- Roigard. Even when he has a "quiet" game by his standards, he is still influential. He is already as important to this AB side as A Smith was. The ABs are a much better side when he is on the field. We have some depth there in Ratima and Hotham, but we really need one of them to step up as we can't expect Roigard to play 80 every match.
- Holland got the official MOTM, he didn't deserve that but he was very good and continues to grow into his role in the test arena. He's still an absolute newbie at this level but is playing like a seasoned pro. Another year or so and he'll be rated one of the worlds best locks IMO.
- Lastly, De Groot was excellent. I saw media giving him poor ratings as he was apparently "invisible", which really shows the state of the media's rugby knowledge. We had the upper hand at set piece and scrum, and on top of that he showed some superb soft skills with the draw and pass at crucial moments, movements which would have broken down with most other probs in world rugby. What more could you ask for?! Loved his work and he really helped keep us in the match in the first half.
There are still significant issues with this current AB side, but it is great to see us actually winning the final 20 instead of other sides finishing on top of us. That's a big step in the right direction in terms of gameplan and use of the bench.
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On the red card: I think it was very much the unexpected pass that caused the contact to go that way - and that it was unexpected because BB had already over-run Roigard, hence the forward pass query.
If Beauden didn't have to catch at ball he wasn't expecting right at the line, he would have braced for impact too and it would have been the standard thing that happens all game every game. Just very unlucky.
I find it hard to believe that Beirne is going to deliberately shoulder charge someone in the head from a completely upright position while making zero attempt to tackle, because if he did that on a regular basis, he'd be getting red carded in every game, would be renowned as a thug, and wouldn't be picked because his actions would lose games.
The consistency/inconsistency in rulings is a completely different issue, but that sort of incident being a red card I think is bad for the game. As BB himself said, at least it was only 20 minutes. -
Anyway, call me naive but I am feeling a bit more positive after the Ireland match. I've decided to put my grumpy hat away and try and focus on the positives here, well at least until we lose to Scotland, then my pitch fork will come out again with a vengeance.
Neither team were good in the first 60, the small field and confusion with the ref certainly didn't help. We can't afford to be that poor again or we will find ourselves too far behind, but, that final 20 was like AB teams of the past. We just finished all over them and it could very well have been 33-13 such was our dominance at the end. That is a hiding no matter how bad we played for the first 60.
The big positives for me were:
- Leicester was absolutely superb, I'll begrudgingly give that one to Razor, he has come back a much more complete player than before he left our shores. He is going to cause massive headaches for defenses, as I mentioned in the match thread, very SBW like in that he is strong in contact and can almost always free his arms for the offload. The likes of Jordan, Clarke and Carter should be on his shoulder every time he gets the ball.
- Clarke back to his best, and he was actually given some space on the outside as Leicester was attracting a lot of attention. We look so much more dangerous with a fully fit and firing Clarke on the wing.
- Sititi is working his way back into some very nice form and could wreck havoc on the final 20 - 30 minutes from the bench. Has the potential to be a real weapon for us in that role.
- Lakai. He is hugely underrated on this forum, he is far more powerful than the likes of Kirifi and the more he plays, the better he is going to get. His ceiling is a mile high IMO and I can see him being our long term 8. He was "quiet" in this match in that he didn't make any blockbusting runs, but he was the glue on defense around the ruck and I think he actually compliments Savea well. We just need more from our 6...
- The bench impact from our tighties was awesome, loved seeing ST making some of his characteristic barnstorming runs, and the props just dominated their opponents who had no answers at all. The bench is so important in the modern game, and we have the makings of a seriously potent one with the likes of ST, Tosi, Williams and Sititi. Add Pat T to that mix and we are going to be bloody hard to contain at the back end of a test.
- DMac did exactly what the coaches wanted from the bench, come on and inject some pace and energy against a tiring defense. He and BB actually linked up very well in the "dual" player maker role and the try that blew the game open was superb - the pop pass was magic and the timing of DMacs run absolutely perfect. Poetry in motion.
- Roigard. Even when he has a "quiet" game by his standards, he is still influential. He is already as important to this AB side as A Smith was. The ABs are a much better side when he is on the field. We have some depth there in Ratima and Hotham, but we really need one of them to step up as we can't expect Roigard to play 80 every match.
- Holland got the official MOTM, he didn't deserve that but he was very good and continues to grow into his role in the test arena. He's still an absolute newbie at this level but is playing like a seasoned pro. Another year or so and he'll be rated one of the worlds best locks IMO.
- Lastly, De Groot was excellent. I saw media giving him poor ratings as he was apparently "invisible", which really shows the state of the media's rugby knowledge. We had the upper hand at set piece and scrum, and on top of that he showed some superb soft skills with the draw and pass at crucial moments, movements which would have broken down with most other probs in world rugby. What more could you ask for?! Loved his work and he really helped keep us in the match in the first half.
There are still significant issues with this current AB side, but it is great to see us actually winning the final 20 instead of other sides finishing on top of us. That's a big step in the right direction in terms of gameplan and use of the bench.
@No-Quarter said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
There are still significant issues with this current AB side, but it is great to see us actually winning the final 20 instead of other sides finishing on top of us. That's a big step in the right direction in terms of gameplan and use of the bench.
So... all we need is consistent red cards for the opposition and we'll finish strongly again?
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@reprobate I am TRYING to be positive here!!
To try to counter that point, I think the impact of their forwards tiring is less in the modern game given you can replace so much of your pack in the 2nd 40. If we'd built a lead during that period you could say that it had a big impact, but as it stands it was them that went ahead, so I don't think the impact of that card was as bad as it could have been for Ireland.
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On the red card: I think it was very much the unexpected pass that caused the contact to go that way - and that it was unexpected because BB had already over-run Roigard, hence the forward pass query.
If Beauden didn't have to catch at ball he wasn't expecting right at the line, he would have braced for impact too and it would have been the standard thing that happens all game every game. Just very unlucky.
I find it hard to believe that Beirne is going to deliberately shoulder charge someone in the head from a completely upright position while making zero attempt to tackle, because if he did that on a regular basis, he'd be getting red carded in every game, would be renowned as a thug, and wouldn't be picked because his actions would lose games.
The consistency/inconsistency in rulings is a completely different issue, but that sort of incident being a red card I think is bad for the game. As BB himself said, at least it was only 20 minutes.@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
On the red card: I think it was very much the unexpected pass that caused the contact to go that way - and that it was unexpected because BB had already over-run Roigard, hence the forward pass query.
If Beauden didn't have to catch at ball he wasn't expecting right at the line, he would have braced for impact too and it would have been the standard thing that happens all game every game. Just very unlucky.
I find it hard to believe that Beirne is going to deliberately shoulder charge someone in the head from a completely upright position while making zero attempt to tackle, because if he did that on a regular basis, he'd be getting red carded in every game, would be renowned as a thug, and wouldn't be picked because his actions would lose games.
The consistency/inconsistency in rulings is a completely different issue, but that sort of incident being a red card I think is bad for the game. As BB himself said, at least it was only 20 minutes.Just remember that intent doesn't matter at all under current rulings. Poor technique that leads to head contact like that is a red card. I don't agree with that at all, but that's what WR have implemented.
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On the red card: I think it was very much the unexpected pass that caused the contact to go that way - and that it was unexpected because BB had already over-run Roigard, hence the forward pass query.
If Beauden didn't have to catch at ball he wasn't expecting right at the line, he would have braced for impact too and it would have been the standard thing that happens all game every game. Just very unlucky.
I find it hard to believe that Beirne is going to deliberately shoulder charge someone in the head from a completely upright position while making zero attempt to tackle, because if he did that on a regular basis, he'd be getting red carded in every game, would be renowned as a thug, and wouldn't be picked because his actions would lose games.
The consistency/inconsistency in rulings is a completely different issue, but that sort of incident being a red card I think is bad for the game. As BB himself said, at least it was only 20 minutes.@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
I find it hard to believe that Beirne is going to deliberately shoulder charge someone in the head
Not sure anyone said he has, accidental contact with the head is still contact and under current framework, we saw what happened, and have seen what happens too manytimes.
@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
The consistency/inconsistency in rulings is a completely different issue, but that sort of incident being a red card I think is bad for the game
Agree 100%, the inconsistent applicaiton of it, is a joke.
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Anyway, call me naive but I am feeling a bit more positive after the Ireland match. I've decided to put my grumpy hat away and try and focus on the positives here, well at least until we lose to Scotland, then my pitch fork will come out again with a vengeance.
Neither team were good in the first 60, the small field and confusion with the ref certainly didn't help. We can't afford to be that poor again or we will find ourselves too far behind, but, that final 20 was like AB teams of the past. We just finished all over them and it could very well have been 33-13 such was our dominance at the end. That is a hiding no matter how bad we played for the first 60.
The big positives for me were:
- Leicester was absolutely superb, I'll begrudgingly give that one to Razor, he has come back a much more complete player than before he left our shores. He is going to cause massive headaches for defenses, as I mentioned in the match thread, very SBW like in that he is strong in contact and can almost always free his arms for the offload. The likes of Jordan, Clarke and Carter should be on his shoulder every time he gets the ball.
- Clarke back to his best, and he was actually given some space on the outside as Leicester was attracting a lot of attention. We look so much more dangerous with a fully fit and firing Clarke on the wing.
- Sititi is working his way back into some very nice form and could wreck havoc on the final 20 - 30 minutes from the bench. Has the potential to be a real weapon for us in that role.
- Lakai. He is hugely underrated on this forum, he is far more powerful than the likes of Kirifi and the more he plays, the better he is going to get. His ceiling is a mile high IMO and I can see him being our long term 8. He was "quiet" in this match in that he didn't make any blockbusting runs, but he was the glue on defense around the ruck and I think he actually compliments Savea well. We just need more from our 6...
- The bench impact from our tighties was awesome, loved seeing ST making some of his characteristic barnstorming runs, and the props just dominated their opponents who had no answers at all. The bench is so important in the modern game, and we have the makings of a seriously potent one with the likes of ST, Tosi, Williams and Sititi. Add Pat T to that mix and we are going to be bloody hard to contain at the back end of a test.
- DMac did exactly what the coaches wanted from the bench, come on and inject some pace and energy against a tiring defense. He and BB actually linked up very well in the "dual" player maker role and the try that blew the game open was superb - the pop pass was magic and the timing of DMacs run absolutely perfect. Poetry in motion.
- Roigard. Even when he has a "quiet" game by his standards, he is still influential. He is already as important to this AB side as A Smith was. The ABs are a much better side when he is on the field. We have some depth there in Ratima and Hotham, but we really need one of them to step up as we can't expect Roigard to play 80 every match.
- Holland got the official MOTM, he didn't deserve that but he was very good and continues to grow into his role in the test arena. He's still an absolute newbie at this level but is playing like a seasoned pro. Another year or so and he'll be rated one of the worlds best locks IMO.
- Lastly, De Groot was excellent. I saw media giving him poor ratings as he was apparently "invisible", which really shows the state of the media's rugby knowledge. We had the upper hand at set piece and scrum, and on top of that he showed some superb soft skills with the draw and pass at crucial moments, movements which would have broken down with most other probs in world rugby. What more could you ask for?! Loved his work and he really helped keep us in the match in the first half.
There are still significant issues with this current AB side, but it is great to see us actually winning the final 20 instead of other sides finishing on top of us. That's a big step in the right direction in terms of gameplan and use of the bench.
@No-Quarter said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
Anyway, call me naive but I am feeling a bit more positive after the Ireland match. I've decided to put my grumpy hat away and try and focus on the positives here, well at least until we lose to Scotland, then my pitch fork will come out again with a vengeance.
Neither team were good in the first 60, the small field and confusion with the ref certainly didn't help. We can't afford to be that poor again or we will find ourselves too far behind, but, that final 20 was like AB teams of the past. We just finished all over them and it could very well have been 33-13 such was our dominance at the end. That is a hiding no matter how bad we played for the first 60.
The big positives for me were:
- Leicester was absolutely superb, I'll begrudgingly give that one to Razor, he has come back a much more complete player than before he left our shores. He is going to cause massive headaches for defenses, as I mentioned in the match thread, very SBW like in that he is strong in contact and can almost always free his arms for the offload. The likes of Jordan, Clarke and Carter should be on his shoulder every time he gets the ball.
- Clarke back to his best, and he was actually given some space on the outside as Leicester was attracting a lot of attention. We look so much more dangerous with a fully fit and firing Clarke on the wing.
- Sititi is working his way back into some very nice form and could wreck havoc on the final 20 - 30 minutes from the bench. Has the potential to be a real weapon for us in that role.
- Lakai. He is hugely underrated on this forum, he is far more powerful than the likes of Kirifi and the more he plays, the better he is going to get. His ceiling is a mile high IMO and I can see him being our long term 8. He was "quiet" in this match in that he didn't make any blockbusting runs, but he was the glue on defense around the ruck and I think he actually compliments Savea well. We just need more from our 6...
- The bench impact from our tighties was awesome, loved seeing ST making some of his characteristic barnstorming runs, and the props just dominated their opponents who had no answers at all. The bench is so important in the modern game, and we have the makings of a seriously potent one with the likes of ST, Tosi, Williams and Sititi. Add Pat T to that mix and we are going to be bloody hard to contain at the back end of a test.
- DMac did exactly what the coaches wanted from the bench, come on and inject some pace and energy against a tiring defense. He and BB actually linked up very well in the "dual" player maker role and the try that blew the game open was superb - the pop pass was magic and the timing of DMacs run absolutely perfect. Poetry in motion.
- Roigard. Even when he has a "quiet" game by his standards, he is still influential. He is already as important to this AB side as A Smith was. The ABs are a much better side when he is on the field. We have some depth there in Ratima and Hotham, but we really need one of them to step up as we can't expect Roigard to play 80 every match.
- Holland got the official MOTM, he didn't deserve that but he was very good and continues to grow into his role in the test arena. He's still an absolute newbie at this level but is playing like a seasoned pro. Another year or so and he'll be rated one of the worlds best locks IMO.
- Lastly, De Groot was excellent. I saw media giving him poor ratings as he was apparently "invisible", which really shows the state of the media's rugby knowledge. We had the upper hand at set piece and scrum, and on top of that he showed some superb soft skills with the draw and pass at crucial moments, movements which would have broken down with most other probs in world rugby. What more could you ask for?! Loved his work and he really helped keep us in the match in the first half.
There are still significant issues with this current AB side, but it is great to see us actually winning the final 20 instead of other sides finishing on top of us. That's a big step in the right direction in terms of gameplan and use of the bench.
When you see what Tupea and Leicester have given us over the last 2 games in contrast to what ALB brings you would have to think his days are well and truly numbered.
