Red Cards & HIA
-
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@antipodean I'm more concerned with the fact the TMO had all that time to look at it, made his call and it was deemed wrong.
Does he get sanctioned for that? I mean in terms of his job, that is almighty fuck-up, and as some have said, while we will never know, it has potentially impacted the outcome of the game.
Credibility of the sport continues to fall.
It is a joke. In this case, I thought a YC looked about right, but by the letter of the law and recent interpretation, it should be a RC.
There has to be a system that allows the game to flow with some penalty for the player, but doesn't ruin the event for fans.
I think I've settled on a YC for all of these, with the player replaced after 10 mins.
If you are out of replacements, you can't send another out.
@gt12 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@antipodean I'm more concerned with the fact the TMO had all that time to look at it, made his call and it was deemed wrong.
Does he get sanctioned for that? I mean in terms of his job, that is almighty fuck-up, and as some have said, while we will never know, it has potentially impacted the outcome of the game.
Credibility of the sport continues to fall.
If you are out of replacements, you can't send another out.
It would be nice if this rule was applied in general.
-
@gt12 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@antipodean I'm more concerned with the fact the TMO had all that time to look at it, made his call and it was deemed wrong.
Does he get sanctioned for that? I mean in terms of his job, that is almighty fuck-up, and as some have said, while we will never know, it has potentially impacted the outcome of the game.
Credibility of the sport continues to fall.
If you are out of replacements, you can't send another out.
It would be nice if this rule was applied in general.
Tbf, I can think of a range of ways for Rassie et al. to get around this in the interest of 'safety' so it's still a relatively poor idea. I like the fact that rugby has laws and interpretations, but we need to make these easier for regular fans to interact with.
All in all, I think even the YC / RC distinction is hurting us.
Just get them off, have a set penalty, then prevent them from playing future games using a report system that is built for purpose.
-
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
what are the chances the red card gets rescinded?
It's official, World Rugby is a joke, they need to take a long hard look at things, this does not reflect well on them and thier officials.
That's fucking laughable. A clear no arms tackle with a shoulder to the head and no mitigation.
@antipodean said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
what are the chances the red card gets rescinded?
It's official, World Rugby is a joke, they need to take a long hard look at things, this does not reflect well on them and thier officials.
That's fucking laughable. A clear no arms tackle with a shoulder to the head and no mitigation.
He didn't mean to.
-
Tbf, I can think of a range of ways for Rassie et al. to get around this in the interest of 'safety' so it's still a relatively poor idea. I like the fact that rugby has laws and interpretations, but we need to make these easier for regular fans to interact with.
All in all, I think even the YC / RC distinction is hurting us.
Just get them off, have a set penalty, then prevent them from playing future games using a report system that is built for purpose.
Seems like you want something like ice hockey.
Just man advantage power-play team penalties, and ejections and suspensions for individual players.
I like that myself.
In ice hockey and rugby the action is super dynamic (or should be) with a lot of speed and physicality.
Rugby has more in common with that sport, than a sport like soccer.
Yellow and red cards, soccer crap. -
@antipodean said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
what are the chances the red card gets rescinded?
It's official, World Rugby is a joke, they need to take a long hard look at things, this does not reflect well on them and thier officials.
That's fucking laughable. A clear no arms tackle with a shoulder to the head and no mitigation.
He didn't mean to.
-
@booboo but he also said sorry didnt he, if that isnt an admission of guilt, I dunno what is!
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@booboo but he also said sorry didnt he, if that isnt an admission of guilt, I dunno what is!
Hey Beaudie, I’m sorry you got hit with an accidental shoulder as a result of me choosing to be there and my body accidentally leading in without my mind having any intent but the impact still jarred you, but I didn’t know that it would.
All sweet? Yeah no probs.
-
@antipodean I'm more concerned with the fact the TMO had all that time to look at it, made his call and it was deemed wrong.
Does he get sanctioned for that? I mean in terms of his job, that is almighty fuck-up, and as some have said, while we will never know, it has potentially impacted the outcome of the game.
Credibility of the sport continues to fall.
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
I'm more concerned with the fact the TMO had all that time to look at it, made his call and it was deemed wrong.
Does he get sanctioned for that? I mean in terms of his job, that is almighty fuck-up, and as some have said, while we will never know, it has potentially impacted the outcome of the game.
Credibility of the sport continues to fall.
This is the very concerning thing here.
The incdent has been micro-analysed twice in detail, and the different analysts have come up with different conclusions.
This is not quick, on the spot, call.
WR really does need to explain the reasons why it was rescinded.
Not really bothered which way the call went, but the inconsistency is alarming.In rugby league this incident would have been only a penalty on the field, and a report made, to be looked at later.
Move on; not a possibly game changing incident.
There are other ways to officiate. -
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@booboo but he also said sorry didnt he, if that isnt an admission of guilt, I dunno what is!
Hey Beaudie, I’m sorry you got hit with an accidental shoulder as a result of me choosing to be there and my body accidentally leading in without my mind having any intent but the impact still jarred you, but I didn’t know that it would.
All sweet? Yeah no probs.
-
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@antipodean I'm more concerned with the fact the TMO had all that time to look at it, made his call and it was deemed wrong.
Does he get sanctioned for that? I mean in terms of his job, that is almighty fuck-up, and as some have said, while we will never know, it has potentially impacted the outcome of the game.
Credibility of the sport continues to fall.
It is a joke. In this case, I thought a YC looked about right, but by the letter of the law and recent interpretation, it should be a RC.
There has to be a system that allows the game to flow with some penalty for the player, but doesn't ruin the event for fans.
I think I've settled on a YC for all of these, with the player replaced after 10 mins.
If you are out of replacements, you can't send another out.
@gt12 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@antipodean I'm more concerned with the fact the TMO had all that time to look at it, made his call and it was deemed wrong.
Does he get sanctioned for that? I mean in terms of his job, that is almighty fuck-up, and as some have said, while we will never know, it has potentially impacted the outcome of the game.
Credibility of the sport continues to fall.
It is a joke. In this case, I thought a YC looked about right, but by the letter of the law and recent interpretation, it should be a RC.
I contrast that completely illegal act with Cane's RWC RC and I cannot fathom how they come to the conclusion the most recent is the one that should be downgraded.
Unless of course they've determined the RWC outcome was a farce but don't want to admit it.
There has to be a system that allows the game to flow with some penalty for the player, but doesn't ruin the event for fans.
Penalty with after game review and much, much longer suspension.
-
@gt12 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@antipodean I'm more concerned with the fact the TMO had all that time to look at it, made his call and it was deemed wrong.
Does he get sanctioned for that? I mean in terms of his job, that is almighty fuck-up, and as some have said, while we will never know, it has potentially impacted the outcome of the game.
Credibility of the sport continues to fall.
It is a joke. In this case, I thought a YC looked about right, but by the letter of the law and recent interpretation, it should be a RC.
I contrast that completely illegal act with Cane's RWC RC and I cannot fathom how they come to the conclusion the most recent is the one that should be downgraded.
Unless of course they've determined the RWC outcome was a farce but don't want to admit it.
There has to be a system that allows the game to flow with some penalty for the player, but doesn't ruin the event for fans.
Penalty with after game review and much, much longer suspension.
@antipodean for it to be rescinded, does it have to be contested or appealed?
I have a vague recollection that they were going to accept Canes one?
-
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
what are the chances the red card gets rescinded?
It's official, World Rugby is a joke, they need to take a long hard look at things, this does not reflect well on them and thier officials.
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
what are the chances the red card gets rescinded?
It's official, World Rugby is a joke, they need to take a long hard look at things, this does not reflect well on them and thier officials.
This is the icing on top of a farcical cake we started baking during Lions tour 2017.
Id love to know what Sam Cane thinks every time he see's this shit.
-
@antipodean said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
what are the chances the red card gets rescinded?
It's official, World Rugby is a joke, they need to take a long hard look at things, this does not reflect well on them and thier officials.
That's fucking laughable. A clear no arms tackle with a shoulder to the head and no mitigation.
He didn't mean to.
@booboo said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@antipodean said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
what are the chances the red card gets rescinded?
It's official, World Rugby is a joke, they need to take a long hard look at things, this does not reflect well on them and thier officials.
That's fucking laughable. A clear no arms tackle with a shoulder to the head and no mitigation.
He didn't mean to.
Starting point for the sanction: 12 weeks.
Discount for not meaning to: 6 weeks.
Discount for contrition: 4 weeks.
Discount for being a guardian of the spirit of the game: 3 weeks.RC rescinded and personal apology from WR for the embarrassment.
-
@gt12 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@antipodean I'm more concerned with the fact the TMO had all that time to look at it, made his call and it was deemed wrong.
Does he get sanctioned for that? I mean in terms of his job, that is almighty fuck-up, and as some have said, while we will never know, it has potentially impacted the outcome of the game.
Credibility of the sport continues to fall.
It is a joke. In this case, I thought a YC looked about right, but by the letter of the law and recent interpretation, it should be a RC.
I contrast that completely illegal act with Cane's RWC RC and I cannot fathom how they come to the conclusion the most recent is the one that should be downgraded.
Unless of course they've determined the RWC outcome was a farce but don't want to admit it.
There has to be a system that allows the game to flow with some penalty for the player, but doesn't ruin the event for fans.
Penalty with after game review and much, much longer suspension.
@antipodean I am dead against it being rescinded unless they are/have actually changed the framework (which I would be in favour of).
But compared to Cane: Sam had time to go lower, he was making a tackle, and he hit with more force. It was significantly worse... But of course then Kolisi should have seen red too.
I don't think there is any conspiracy, but the whole thing is very much a lottery and a farce. See also Ta'avao and Porter. -
Seems like you want something like ice hockey.
Just man advantage power-play team penalties, and ejections and suspensions for individual players.
I like that myself.
In ice hockey and rugby the action is super dynamic (or should be) with a lot of speed and physicality.
Rugby has more in common with that sport, than a sport like soccer.
Yellow and red cards, soccer crap.@mohikamo said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
Seems like you want something like ice hockey.
Just man advantage power-play team penalties, and ejections and suspensions for individual players.
I like that myself.
In ice hockey and rugby the action is super dynamic (or should be) with a lot of speed and physicality.
Rugby has more in common with that sport, than a sport like soccer.
Yellow and red cards, soccer crap.That's a better explanation than mine. Let's start there.
-
@antipodean I am dead against it being rescinded unless they are/have actually changed the framework (which I would be in favour of).
But compared to Cane: Sam had time to go lower, he was making a tackle, and he hit with more force. It was significantly worse... But of course then Kolisi should have seen red too.
I don't think there is any conspiracy, but the whole thing is very much a lottery and a farce. See also Ta'avao and Porter.@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@antipodean I am dead against it being rescinded unless they are/have actually changed the framework (which I would be in favour of).
But compared to Cane: Sam had time to go lower, he was making a tackle, and he hit with more force. It was significantly worse... But of course then Kolisi should have seen red too.
I don't think there is any conspiracy, but the whole thing is very much a lottery and a farce. See also Ta'avao and Porter.They are all red, all yellow or all nothing. It cant be reffed any other way in my opinion.
We cant get into semantics on a case by case basis. I read a great point earlier elsewhere
"we dont just need consistency in refereeing, we need consistency in fan reactions".We all need to be on board. They are all red, all yellow or all nothing.
Kolisi and Cane and Beirne, and Cipriani and Porter and Taavao etc etc etc ad infinitum cant all have different sanctions.
If the head is sacred. Fine. Kolisi and Cane both walk in the final. Etzebeth walks too for elbowing Cane in the face.
Whats happening now is literally judiciary/refereeing roulette. It's patently unaceptble to the players and fans.
I need to believe what im watching is real.
Irish fans now feel hatcheted (rightly or wrongly) and will think "what if?".
We will look at RWC final and think "what if?".
It really has descended into utter farce.
This isnt a whinge. This is officialdom pissing on my neck and telling me its raining.
-
@ACT-Crusader
Have you seen Beauden talking about it?@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@ACT-Crusader
Have you seen Beauden talking about it?I have.
The players code alive and well
-
@antipodean I am dead against it being rescinded unless they are/have actually changed the framework (which I would be in favour of).
But compared to Cane: Sam had time to go lower, he was making a tackle, and he hit with more force. It was significantly worse... But of course then Kolisi should have seen red too.
I don't think there is any conspiracy, but the whole thing is very much a lottery and a farce. See also Ta'avao and Porter.@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@antipodean I am dead against it being rescinded unless they are/have actually changed the framework (which I would be in favour of).
But compared to Cane: Sam had time to go lower, he was making a tackle, and he hit with more force. It was significantly worse... But of course then Kolisi should have seen red too.
I don't think there is any conspiracy, but the whole thing is very much a lottery and a farce. See also Ta'avao and Porter.My recollection of Cane's card he was definitely high and deserved to be penalized for that aspect, but it was a step by Kriel into Cane so short notice and a clear example of an "absorbing tackle"
Barnes as Kriel dominated the collision and they fell in the direction Kriel was moving.In every other aspect I agree with your post.
-
@Dodge that's an interesting perspective, thanks. I don't have time to watch a lot of NH rugby, so my impression from the last RWC is that the push for cards for these types of incidents came strongly from the north. And further to that, Ireland themselves have a history of calling for cards for the opposition whenever there is some form of accidental head contact. So to that end, they made their bed, they can lie in it now. If that is changing then that's a good thing, but as we are all saying, the directive from WR has to be crystal clear on this, but right now it's as clear as mud.
@No-Quarter said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@Dodge that's an interesting perspective, thanks. I don't have time to watch a lot of NH rugby, so my impression from the last RWC is that the push for cards for these types of incidents came strongly from the north. And further to that, Ireland themselves have a history of calling for cards for the opposition whenever there is some form of accidental head contact. So to that end, they made their bed, they can lie in it now. If that is changing then that's a good thing, but as we are all saying, the directive from WR has to be crystal clear on this, but right now it's as clear as mud.
I don’t know whether the push came from the NH but it was certainly refereed a lot more harshly in the NH in the year before the WC. I’ve said it before that I called out a head contact in that year in Super Rugby that would have been a red up North and wasn’t even commented on. I predicted a car crash in the WC at that moment.
The interpretations changed as the WC wore on after a few reds early doors. The watering down of the punishment has definitely continued.
As TR says, this is entirely the fault of WR that so many of us find it difficult to predict now. Find it irritating that in the statement from WR about the above, it says it didn’t meet the threshold for red but doesn’t explain why.
