B&I Lions 2017
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@SimonAdd_2 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Bovidae I don't see much point picking guys like Warburton and Tipuric, who are the best in the NH at the traditional openside role but we already know are nowhere near their SH counterparts. I'd prefer to do what Eddie Jones has done with England and pick ruck-clearers like O'Brien and Haskell at openside and just smash the breakdown. Robshaw and O'Mahoney give a different look on the blindside. It's not what I expect Gatland to do, but this is my team dammit.
Similar deal at fullback. Halfpenny, Brown and Kearney are all well past their best as attacking threats and unlike if we were playing South Africa or even Australia, I don't think the All Blacks will use the high ball as a major weapon. So Carbery makes it in as a bolter, and Williams, Watson and Daly can all cover 15 too.
I don't think Maitland is close I'm afraid. Loads of wings who offer more, and even for Scotland I'd have Visser and Seymour above him.
About the kicking thing, the ABs definitely use the high ball a lot. Same pattern with most of the NZ Super Rugby sides again this year.
You will definitely need a fullback with good aerial skills, probably at least one of the wingers too.
Remember reading somewhere that we kick more than any of the other top teams.
@Kirwan yea I think it was bought up before the 2015 EOYT how much we kicked it, which was in fact more than any other team, just cos we score more tries than anyone else, is easily overlooked
Having accurate kicks, with good chases (Smith, Dagg) to pressure the defence plays a decent part in what we do, I dont recall a huge shift away from kicking last year.
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@Kirwan yea I think it was bought up before the 2015 EOYT how much we kicked it, which was in fact more than any other team, just cos we score more tries than anyone else, is easily overlooked
Having accurate kicks, with good chases (Smith, Dagg) to pressure the defence plays a decent part in what we do, I dont recall a huge shift away from kicking last year.
@taniwharugby To my mind it has been that way for a whlle now. Why it doesn't always seem so apparent though is likely because your boys do both the kick and the chase so effectively and then it almost gets forgotten due to what inevitably comes straight after.
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@SimonAdd_2 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Bovidae I don't see much point picking guys like Warburton and Tipuric, who are the best in the NH at the traditional openside role but we already know are nowhere near their SH counterparts. I'd prefer to do what Eddie Jones has done with England and pick ruck-clearers like O'Brien and Haskell at openside and just smash the breakdown. Robshaw and O'Mahoney give a different look on the blindside. It's not what I expect Gatland to do, but this is my team dammit.
Similar deal at fullback. Halfpenny, Brown and Kearney are all well past their best as attacking threats and unlike if we were playing South Africa or even Australia, I don't think the All Blacks will use the high ball as a major weapon. So Carbery makes it in as a bolter, and Williams, Watson and Daly can all cover 15 too.
I don't think Maitland is close I'm afraid. Loads of wings who offer more, and even for Scotland I'd have Visser and Seymour above him.
About the kicking thing, the ABs definitely use the high ball a lot. Same pattern with most of the NZ Super Rugby sides again this year.
You will definitely need a fullback with good aerial skills, probably at least one of the wingers too.
Remember reading somewhere that we kick more than any of the other top teams.
@Kirwan I know the All Black's kick a lot but my perception has been that they tend to kick longer to force the opposition to kick it back therefore creating counter-attacks and broken field situations, rather than midfield or cross-field bombs like, say, the 2009-era Boks. Happy to be wrong on that though.
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@Pot-Hale yeah, fully expect Warburton to be captain but I think it's a mistake. How many times has he played New Zealand and Australian teams and come up short against his opposite number? The Lions are never going to beat the All Blacks on the floor, our best just aren't good enough in that area. It's not just a Welsh thing either, I wouldn't pick the Scottish flankers like John Barclay and Hamish Watson (who I rate quite highly) for the same reason.
As for the captains, from my squad above I'd have Best for the Test side and Robshaw for the midweek team.
@SimonAdd_2 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale yeah, fully expect Warburton to be captain but I think it's a mistake. How many times has he played New Zealand and Australian teams and come up short against his opposite number? The Lions are never going to beat the All Blacks on the floor, our best just aren't good enough in that area. It's not just a Welsh thing either, I wouldn't pick the Scottish flankers like John Barclay and Hamish Watson (who I rate quite highly) for the same reason.
As for the captains, from my squad above I'd have Best for the Test side and Robshaw for the midweek team.
I like your theory @SimonAdd_2 except putting all your planning eggs in this basket could also prove to be fatal.
Reason being that all it would take is for the refs to clamp down on players blowing past the ruck, taking out defenders or diving over the ball and you'd be left with nothing else. Leave that job for the locks and front row and have your loose forwards play as loose forwards. Securing or slowing the ball is the key.
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@Kirwan I know the All Black's kick a lot but my perception has been that they tend to kick longer to force the opposition to kick it back therefore creating counter-attacks and broken field situations, rather than midfield or cross-field bombs like, say, the 2009-era Boks. Happy to be wrong on that though.
@SimonAdd_2 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Kirwan I know the All Black's kick a lot but my perception has been that they tend to kick longer to force the opposition to kick it back therefore creating counter-attacks and broken field situations, rather than midfield or cross-field bombs like, say, the 2009-era Boks. Happy to be wrong on that though.
We are doing bombs from our 22, from everywhere basically. And Ben Smith gets a high percentage of them back.
Also doing a lot of kick passes into space across the field.
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@SimonAdd_2 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale yeah, fully expect Warburton to be captain but I think it's a mistake. How many times has he played New Zealand and Australian teams and come up short against his opposite number? The Lions are never going to beat the All Blacks on the floor, our best just aren't good enough in that area. It's not just a Welsh thing either, I wouldn't pick the Scottish flankers like John Barclay and Hamish Watson (who I rate quite highly) for the same reason.
As for the captains, from my squad above I'd have Best for the Test side and Robshaw for the midweek team.
I like your theory @SimonAdd_2 except putting all your planning eggs in this basket could also prove to be fatal.
Reason being that all it would take is for the refs to clamp down on players blowing past the ruck, taking out defenders or diving over the ball and you'd be left with nothing else. Leave that job for the locks and front row and have your loose forwards play as loose forwards. Securing or slowing the ball is the key.
@Crucial said in B&I Lions 2017:
@SimonAdd_2 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale yeah, fully expect Warburton to be captain but I think it's a mistake. How many times has he played New Zealand and Australian teams and come up short against his opposite number? The Lions are never going to beat the All Blacks on the floor, our best just aren't good enough in that area. It's not just a Welsh thing either, I wouldn't pick the Scottish flankers like John Barclay and Hamish Watson (who I rate quite highly) for the same reason.
As for the captains, from my squad above I'd have Best for the Test side and Robshaw for the midweek team.
I like your theory @SimonAdd_2 except putting all your planning eggs in this basket could also prove to be fatal.
Reason being that all it would take is for the refs to clamp down on players blowing past the ruck, taking out defenders or diving over the ball and you'd be left with nothing else. Leave that job for the locks and front row and have your loose forwards play as loose forwards. Securing or slowing the ball is the key.
I'm not suggesting we try to gain an illegal advantage by taking players out etc (at least no more than normal). I'm just saying that rather than try to scrabble on the floor against superior New Zealand opensides, the Lions would be better off securing the ball by clearing out, counter-rucking and generally driving over the ball.
See Haskell versus Pooper in Australia last year, or the Irish back row in November.
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@SimonAdd_2 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Kirwan I know the All Black's kick a lot but my perception has been that they tend to kick longer to force the opposition to kick it back therefore creating counter-attacks and broken field situations, rather than midfield or cross-field bombs like, say, the 2009-era Boks. Happy to be wrong on that though.
We are doing bombs from our 22, from everywhere basically. And Ben Smith gets a high percentage of them back.
Also doing a lot of kick passes into space across the field.
@Kirwan Fair enough. I'd perhaps consider Kearney or Nowell instead of Ringrose then, let Daly take the second 13 slot.
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@Bovidae I don't see much point picking guys like Warburton and Tipuric, who are the best in the NH at the traditional openside role but we already know are nowhere near their SH counterparts. I'd prefer to do what Eddie Jones has done with England and pick ruck-clearers like O'Brien and Haskell at openside and just smash the breakdown. Robshaw and O'Mahoney give a different look on the blindside. It's not what I expect Gatland to do, but this is my team dammit.
Similar deal at fullback. Halfpenny, Brown and Kearney are all well past their best as attacking threats and unlike if we were playing South Africa or even Australia, I don't think the All Blacks will use the high ball as a major weapon. So Carbery makes it in as a bolter, and Williams, Watson and Daly can all cover 15 too.
I don't think Maitland is close I'm afraid. Loads of wings who offer more, and even for Scotland I'd have Visser and Seymour above him.
@SimonAdd_2 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Bovidae I don't see much point picking guys like Warburton and Tipuric, who are the best in the NH at the traditional openside role but we already know are nowhere near their SH counterparts. I'd prefer to do what Eddie Jones has done with England and pick ruck-clearers like O'Brien and Haskell at openside and just smash the breakdown. Robshaw and O'Mahoney give a different look on the blindside. It's not what I expect Gatland to do, but this is my team dammit.
Similar deal at fullback. Halfpenny, Brown and Kearney are all well past their best as attacking threats and unlike if we were playing South Africa or even Australia, I don't think the All Blacks will use the high ball as a major weapon. So Carbery makes it in as a bolter, and Williams, Watson and Daly can all cover 15 too.
I don't think Maitland is close I'm afraid. Loads of wings who offer more, and even for Scotland I'd have Visser and Seymour above him.
We can forget it if Warburton doesn't go and Robshaw and Visser do
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@SimonAdd_2 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Bovidae I don't see much point picking guys like Warburton and Tipuric, who are the best in the NH at the traditional openside role but we already know are nowhere near their SH counterparts. I'd prefer to do what Eddie Jones has done with England and pick ruck-clearers like O'Brien and Haskell at openside and just smash the breakdown. Robshaw and O'Mahoney give a different look on the blindside. It's not what I expect Gatland to do, but this is my team dammit.
Similar deal at fullback. Halfpenny, Brown and Kearney are all well past their best as attacking threats and unlike if we were playing South Africa or even Australia, I don't think the All Blacks will use the high ball as a major weapon. So Carbery makes it in as a bolter, and Williams, Watson and Daly can all cover 15 too.
I don't think Maitland is close I'm afraid. Loads of wings who offer more, and even for Scotland I'd have Visser and Seymour above him.
We can forget it if Warburton doesn't go and Robshaw and Visser do
@MiketheSnow I think openside is going to be one of the more problematical areas for Gatland. I'm not sure that we have a 7 that can compete with Cane in being a scavenger and perhaps only Tipuric that could compete with Savea in being a wide ranging link man. Warburton would be the closest we have to competing with Cane, however I can see @Bovidae point of view that maybe we need to look at competing in a different way. If so that would mean either O'Brien or Haskell at 7 - and O'Brien would get the nod for me. I would quite like to see SOB at 7 and Warburton at 6.
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@MiketheSnow I think openside is going to be one of the more problematical areas for Gatland. I'm not sure that we have a 7 that can compete with Cane in being a scavenger and perhaps only Tipuric that could compete with Savea in being a wide ranging link man. Warburton would be the closest we have to competing with Cane, however I can see @Bovidae point of view that maybe we need to look at competing in a different way. If so that would mean either O'Brien or Haskell at 7 - and O'Brien would get the nod for me. I would quite like to see SOB at 7 and Warburton at 6.
@Catogrande said in B&I Lions 2017:
@MiketheSnow I think openside is going to be one of the more problematical areas for Gatland. I'm not sure that we have a 7 that can compete with Cane in being a scavenger and perhaps only Tipuric that could compete with Savea in being a wide ranging link man. Warburton would be the closest we have to competing with Cane, however I can see @Bovidae point of view that maybe we need to look at competing in a different way. If so that would mean either O'Brien or Haskell at 7 - and O'Brien would get the nod for me. I would quite like to see SOB at 7 and Warburton at 6.
With Billy at 8?
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I don't think Cane is quite the scavenger though. As i said elsewhere, he's more Kaino in his playing style, or later years McCaw. Savea is the one who concentrates a lot on steals.
@Bones I bow to your superior knowledge as I haven't seen much of either Cane or Savea. What I have seen of Savea though (admittedly not a lot more than a cameo), was him zipping all over the park, popping up everywhere and carrying in the wider channels. Cane and a comparison to a latter day McCaw would be good enough for me!
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@Catogrande said in B&I Lions 2017:
@MiketheSnow I think openside is going to be one of the more problematical areas for Gatland. I'm not sure that we have a 7 that can compete with Cane in being a scavenger and perhaps only Tipuric that could compete with Savea in being a wide ranging link man. Warburton would be the closest we have to competing with Cane, however I can see @Bovidae point of view that maybe we need to look at competing in a different way. If so that would mean either O'Brien or Haskell at 7 - and O'Brien would get the nod for me. I would quite like to see SOB at 7 and Warburton at 6.
With Billy at 8?
@MiketheSnow Three weeks ago I would have said Billy V without a doubt but Faletau has been paying very well for Bath and I would think it will go down to what sort of game plan Gatland wants. However I'd say Faletau is now in the box seat as he is (quite rightly) one of Gatland's favourites.
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@Bones I bow to your superior knowledge as I haven't seen much of either Cane or Savea. What I have seen of Savea though (admittedly not a lot more than a cameo), was him zipping all over the park, popping up everywhere and carrying in the wider channels. Cane and a comparison to a latter day McCaw would be good enough for me!
@Catogrande Don't forget Todd either, who's a hybrid between the 2...
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@Catogrande The ABs have not played a style that expects the 7 to be an out and out scavenger for a long time. Most will have that skill as part of their arsenal (and some are more effective than others) but instead everyone on the field is expected to identify a steal opportunity and have the skill to execute it. The key being in the identification of the opportunity.
The idea is that no one wastes time or invites an unnecessary penalty by going for a jackal that they can't complete legally.
With 7 having the higher number of times being in the first 2 to the breakdown they will get the chance more often than others but then again one of our better players on the steal is BBBR.
The key for the Lions is to pick loosies that, on attack, can secure the ball (easy to do if playing a hit it up game close in, harder to do if playing an open game) and on defence will be enough of a nuisance as to legally slow down the recycle.
It will depend a lot on the style Gatland wants. As soon as the Lions look to move wide they need the more mobile loosies, if playing a tighter game they need the heavy hitters.
If the ABs secure ball then the Lions defensively will need guys that will be able to chase around the park. -
@Catogrande The ABs have not played a style that expects the 7 to be an out and out scavenger for a long time. Most will have that skill as part of their arsenal (and some are more effective than others) but instead everyone on the field is expected to identify a steal opportunity and have the skill to execute it. The key being in the identification of the opportunity.
The idea is that no one wastes time or invites an unnecessary penalty by going for a jackal that they can't complete legally.
With 7 having the higher number of times being in the first 2 to the breakdown they will get the chance more often than others but then again one of our better players on the steal is BBBR.
The key for the Lions is to pick loosies that, on attack, can secure the ball (easy to do if playing a hit it up game close in, harder to do if playing an open game) and on defence will be enough of a nuisance as to legally slow down the recycle.
It will depend a lot on the style Gatland wants. As soon as the Lions look to move wide they need the more mobile loosies, if playing a tighter game they need the heavy hitters.
If the ABs secure ball then the Lions defensively will need guys that will be able to chase around the park.@Crucial Yeah, no-one seems to go for an out and out jackal these days save for Aus (and now Scotland), but your boys have shown a bit more nous on the floor than ours (BILS in this instance). So much so that I fear for our ability to compete in this area. We have a few that are pretty good over the ball Warburton, itoje for instance, but you're right it is the ability for the whole pack to play that game at the right time.
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@Crucial Yeah, no-one seems to go for an out and out jackal these days save for Aus (and now Scotland), but your boys have shown a bit more nous on the floor than ours (BILS in this instance). So much so that I fear for our ability to compete in this area. We have a few that are pretty good over the ball Warburton, itoje for instance, but you're right it is the ability for the whole pack to play that game at the right time.
@Catogrande Itoje won't be able to get too many steals from the sin bin anyway....
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@Catogrande Itoje won't be able to get too many steals from the sin bin anyway....
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@Bones Strange comment, I can't remember a single Test yellow card for Itoje? He's certainly not known for them.
@SimonAdd_2 Not so strange if ya watched the 6N, he was very, very lucky not to see card (s). High tackles and high cleans galore, it was rather oddly ignored. Which probably isn't a good thing for the BIL, as I guess he won't be looking to curtail that...
