The Silver Fern

I just rewatched with from start to finish so brief (not really!) thoughts on players ... my top 2 were probably Blackadder and Jordie.

Ethan Blackadder was fricken huge in the forwards. Even though I love Paps and have a slight Blues eye patch Blackadder's workrate and game was fantastic ... dominant tackling, lineout, linking well, doing the dirty stuff. Played like a 7/6 (which is how Paps plays tbh). I simply could not see 4 missed tackles, I saw one which was marginal and when the AB's were completely sliced open. He was out on his feet by 70-75 minutes. I'm so impressed.

Ardie was good but please keep him competing at 8 in the "A" team. I don't feel he's a better seven than Paps, Cane and on that evidence maybe Blackadder too. Hit quite a few rucks, tackled in his normal "half-dominant" scraggy style, ran well out wide.

Sotutu was silky smooth, lovely skills, but ... nothing new there? Jury is out for me still though because he needs to be tested defensively vs the Boks, England, France etc. His tackling technique looks to be naturally low and round the knees (maybe because he comes from a backs background?) which is fine until you're on the goal-line. Prefer Ardie and Jacobson for now.

Taukei'aho was a wrecking ball. I can't remember seeing that in an AB hooker since ... well I can't remember ... so tell me?

The locks, PT I just don't think he has anywhere near an AB workrate or dominance or ideally both for a starting lock. I saw Ardie hitting quite a few rucks the first half and wondered where our locks were. Tupou Vai had a pretty good start, looked like he had potential.

In the backs Jordie Barrett was great. Again huge workrate including as the second playmaker, hit the line well, made his tackles, good under the high ball. Big boot, kicks his goals. What's not to like, apart from the odd brain-fart which hopefully will pass? A real old school full-back (in a good way) plus the playmaker aspect plus the goalkicking. Took one AFL style catch Folau style. Great stuff.

DMac played conservatively and pretty well. Actually I'd liked to have seen him run more! There were a few half gaps maybe he should have tried, but he was focussed on his core job so overall was good.

Don't kill me but I though George Bridge was very solid, good even, and they might go for him specifically for the Boks given their conservative/kicking style of play. I wouldn't blame Fozzie tbh. There's enough attacking firepower elsewhere ... recently.

Finally I thought Jaco Peyper was his normal fair but pedantic self ... BUT I re-watched Rieko's (non) try at about 30-31 minutes a few times and seriously wonder wrongly wondered, see below if it would have stood had Peyper gone to the TMO? It looked 50/50 to me if he was held or slipped the tackle at the last minute.

I got the impression Peyper had certain pre-conceived areas of the game he wanted to clamp down on.

I just rewatched the game ... brief thoughts ... not commenting on everyone! But -

The AB backrow were again very very good as a unit - they play very zonal on attack, were tighter on defense. Analysing them as traditional 6/7/8 roles is to miss why it's starting to click imo.

Papilli is being asked to play VERY centrally both on attack and defense. Think 6/7 and he's strong on defense ... not quite as strong as Kaino as a traditional 6 or quite as strong as Cane on "cut-you-in-half" tackles. Less tackling in this game as the AB's were dominant but very all rounded.

Jacobson and Akira obviously wider in attack. Tonnes to like but for me Akira plus Jacobson means four genuine lineout options. Jacobson was excellent and grew into the game, tries aside I think he can add more than Ardie but needs a run of games.

Akira was strong on the carry but (very!) well marked by Argentina as a threat.

I want to see the backrow tested defensively (workrate + accuracy) in a serious dog-fight though especially Akira, they are relative novices internationally.

BBBR is ridiculous, period. Like a combo world-level lock, plus the athleticsm and engine of a loosie plus the hands of a back, goes 80 minutes. You stop watching him because you take it for granted but he's crazy good.

Havillii adds so much at 12. He has that knack of breaking the first tackle like Ben Smith plus a kicking game that means when the 10 is pressured, he seems to consistently makes a good playmaking call as second five-eighth i.e. not "simply" an inside centre.

McKenzie isn't close to RM or BB at 10 but was paired with an inexperienced 12 in QT ... needs to be more direct. Apart from BB's brilliant moments he was VERY direct to take the line on today. More of that from all the AB's 10s please.

Jordie Barrett looked a really good traditional full-back on both attack (hits the line hard, runs straight, threat on the cross-kick) and can hit hard on defense. I wonder if his boot can be used more tactically aka I miss Israel Dagg's ability to kick anything back with +10 metres which was under appreciated at the time.

To the AB coaches: persist with this structure and core roles and f*ck off with too clever second-playmaker options from 15. With Aaron Smith back you have playmakers from 9, 10 and 12 ... how many do you need??

Lots to like today, almost everyone was "industrious" as a minimum.

@booboo I dare you to post this on GAGR as a Kiwi. 100 pages I reckon of vitriol. Blaming NZR for not propping them up by letting ABs play for Australian teams etc. Believing they prop NZ rugby up with SR TV money without an awareness of how big the AB sponsorship deals are.

Due to years of financial and structural mis-management, sadly imo they look seriously f*cked

• Running out of money, relying on loans from World Rugby
• Declining grass-root rugby, given competition from League and Aussie Rules
• Pro talent increasingly looking overseas, degrading their talent base, international ranking etc

Basically I feel they are desperate because without huge cash windfalls from hosting a RWC and the next Lions series it's hard to see how they can survive in their current form.
Twiggy? Venture Capital? In both cases, they cede significant control.

I think they are lashing out because they really don't know how to turn an ever-worsening situation around ... arguments and noise can help distract from people seeing all this.

Well ... if you're all going to mock me for trying to get down with the "yoof" ...

I could join Planet Rugby ... except that's turned into Planet Toxic Politics (TM), so maybe not

Or maybe the Green-and-Gold-Rugby mob ... except they're currently obsessed with why the ABs won't distribute talent to Oz SR sides, and there's a whole weird groupthink that somehow it's NZR's duty to sort out Australian rugby because NZR needs the Aussie SR TV money.

Nah, forget it. If I can moan about Fozzie, I'll take the ribbing here instead

I watched again ... third time , looking more at the backline.

My first conclusion was (I can't help how I watch a game!) I still really rate the loose forward combination. Papalli and Jacobson were huge, both all over the game for 3 of 4 quarters each ... Jacobson adding a 3rd/4th lineout option after the locks so Akira was doing less jumping. Very very physical and balanced as a unit. I'd seriously run with this as the #1 combination until Sam Cane is back. Cane likely gets his position back as AB captain but Paps looks the real deal to me (still). Start this three vs the Boks, put Ardie on the bench and ... let's see how they go.

BB was excellent (i.e. world class), options were good and taken with total committment - inclusing the way he hit the line ... like DC. One mistimed kick out on the full and one slightly aimless kick down the middle but overall he was giving the Pumas kittens with the variety of his option taking. TJP also very good indeed.

McKenzie was better than I thought on first watch. Hard to assess as 9 and 12 also changed so really 9-10-12 were very inexperienced at this level.

Rieko looks like a winger playing 13 and has real work ons, but his pace makes him very threatening. Prefer ALB but I can't see a downside to having a world-class wing who can step in at 13 for a couple of years?? Most sides would kill for what he can offer.

Pumas defended very well I thought, yet were comprehensively outplayed.

AB set piece was messy, else it could have been 50+

@antipodean Yeah, I watched that - not proposing it, just an example of Scott Robertson setting a healthy example of being prepared be challenged on his thinking ... and to import coaching IP/insight where useful

People may disagree but I don't think the step up from "NZ-derby-level" Super Rugby to elite international is just about physicality, NZ derbies are often brutal. It's structural i.e. given how the game has developed, has NZR (really) adapted top-down given that AB brand/success is the golden-goose? Evidence suggests it just hasn't ... recently

Maybe NZR need a more self-critical look at local SR coaching structure and talent given that they control/run/fund SR "top down" to feed AB success ... focus on coaching (innovation/depth/pay(!)/retention/acquisition/international vs local pay differentials).

Set a coaching benchmark to have ABs and fringe-ABs playing against better defensive structures as the "new norm" etc

(1) Far easier said than done and (2) Needs NZR investment - long-term strategy is like that though - this kind of thinking is part of what they are paid for, not just cutting commercial deals and rehiring a continuity coach?

I'm looking forward to this game because it feels like NZ are now stopping faffing around with dual playmaker BS and just picking the best players for each position again. Mainly.

Loving to see Havilli as a true Second Five, rather than a bosh merchant though if we adds that too he's... Nonu v2? But he looks a natural there.

Think the 6-7-8 balance looks excellent, not convinced by Ardie Savea as a starter and never have been. Prefer both Paps and Cane at seven, give Jacobson a run at eight

And if I ever see Jordie on the wing again I might have to support England. Yes, AB selection was getting that bad.

@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

Also, I remember a video segment from RNZ where he mentions his desire to quote 'show that he is 'innovative'..

And to be fair to him... being the first AB coach to lose to Argentina, was a ground-breaking achievement for Foz.

I think the worst thing he claimed, and didn't deliver on, was the commitment to physicality in the forwards.

He correctly identified the issue, then failed completely to bring along/select the right players to address the problem

We have played powder puff (copyright Walrus) rugby all year.

Go to 55 seconds, he pretty much addresses this, and even gets pressed further by Campbell about it.

Mortifying to watch now after what's since transpired under Fozzie, he hasn't fulfilled these points to any degree.

Watching this right now it's apparent he's completely & utterly out of his depth as an international coach & is simply clueless with regards to the best course of action that should be required for this team going forward.

Just words alone cannot describe the inadequacy on display here.

How is this level of incompetence acceptable for the NZR?

States the obvious; "we got smacked against England, what have we learnt from that?" and then proceeds to vomit HR twaddle about "freshening an organisation, how we deliver messages, the people that we use to deliver messages, grow our leaders, grow our mental skills, culture, younger group of players coming through from different backgrounds that we need to take into account and figure out how we link and communicate with them."

And some people still wonder why we've seen no development in how we play in over two years? He's not helped by the snivelling shit of an interviewer, but if that was the brief to the NZR selection committee, small wonder the game is in the parlous state it is. From the top down the organisation is being replaced with mediocrity and as they permeate through it becomes harder to identify them.

It all starts at the top, because we have idiots on the NZRU Board we end up with an incompetent coach - even though we won The Rugby Championship you could see the cracks appearing... on the UK tour we lost really badly against Ireland, didn't learn from those obvious mistakes, so lost the same pathetic way against France too.

We are not even doing the basics in the forwards when we have possession, there's a real lack of mongrel/urgency taking the ball up, also we're not getting enough numbers to clean, blowing their players out the way so we can get quicker ball to our backs.

Foster's tactic to use box kicks to counter the rushing defence is pathetic... when the opposition are really slowing your ball down you need to kick, but is has to be smart kicking, like wipers kicks deep towards the sideline or corners, get them scrambling back, because the opposition are standing up so flat with this rugby league type defence there's going to be acres of space behind them.

"It all starts at the top". Is it just me who feels that SuperRugby for all it's intensity in the NZ derbies, no longer prepares teams for an elite international defensive structure?

(There's a great 1014 interview on Youtube with Scott Robertson and Ronan O'Gara where Scott admits that ROG really challenged his own ideas on defense ... just a good example)

Regaining a coaching innovation edge is only part of the problem, I suspect some some structural issues and complacency are underpinning this too

Spot on mate - it's not just a problem with Super Rugby, but in world rugby too.

Heaps of times in games we see a ton of aimless kicking, deep down the middle of the field directly to a player, that's just giving good possession away, also those bloody box kicks are way overdone, need to vary your tactics accurately.

Players tend to grubber kick directly into the legs of an opposition player & don't get the weight on the ball right either, if they had any sense they'd look to guide the ball along the deck between the other sides players.
Really annoys me when dumb intercept tries are given away & silly passes in general are thrown to gift the opposition the ball, also charge downs from kicks - christ, these blokes are meant to be professionals ? ...these things would hardly ever happen if each player bothered to read the game properly & have a quick look for a split second to see if a kick or pass was on or not, clearly if it isn't go to ground & set the ball up.

The joy of watching the ABs has always been that fantasic philosophy that a great attack can outwit a great defense "somehow" ... tactics and skills and speed (fitness can no longer be a point of difference)

Given this, what gets me is that NZ tactical innovation seems to have stalled vs modern defenses ... yet SR is the only experience route to prepare up-and-coming / fringe ABs, so I see it as a structural issue, not just a pure AB-level coaching issue ... how to best use SR teams/coaches to prepare the future ABs (who pay all the bills)
And assume that Sean Edwards-style defenses need to be a new defensive benchmark they'll face more and more, not the exception

Hansen was a good coach, but not a great one, he didn't have much insight how to counter a rushing defence either, that showed in the Lions series in NZ - Foster is a complete clown though, so all he's going do is continue to ruin the team, Schmidt has a good rugby brain, hope Foster takes a lot of advice from him, because he desperately needs it.

Against a rushing defence there's really only two options, taking the ball up in phases when you have some momentum going forward - when the opposition really slow your ball down it's pointless to continue to run into a brick wall... so adjust to execute a smart accurate kicking game, wiper kicks into space deep into the corners, grubbers weighted into space etc.

That's a really dumb tactic the AB coaching staff have against a rushing by executing a lot of box kicks/up & unders - with those type of kicks you have less than a 50/50 chance of getting the possession back, also the ball only travels about 30 metres up field.
The players have to take some blame as well, they're the ones playing on the field... our playmakers 9 & 10 should be reading play far better, by consistently taking good options & executing them accurately.

Just that imo future AB playmakers 9, 10, maybe 12 need to playing against more aggressive rush defenses at SR level consistently to learn to deal with it at the next level down ... how to achieve that is a structural and coaching issue for NZR

All the other comps around the world are no more aggressive rushing defence wise than in the Super Rugby Comp - yeah, part of it is about a coaching & structural issue - the majority of it though is about 9, 10 & the midfield not using that thing between their ears called a brain very much... like any bloody sport it's about reading the situation at the time, then taking the best option, not difficult to analsye.

That womble Foster made a big stuff up by not wanting Laumape - we lack that intimidating midfield power runner that can consistently get us over the advantage line... Laumape also had good all-round skills sets, plenty of gas & reads play well.

Totally, and NZ aims to be #1 ALL the time ... it's bl**dy hard to keep that edge long-term, you need to be very forward looking, look at talent management across the board, pay the $$$ for the current and future stars and be absolutely ruthless when to cull/fire

The depth of kiwi coaching worldwide is unbelievable right? Just that GREAT coaching talent (judging by later success) moves on from SR to develop

Whereas even GOOD-ish ABs get paid pretty decent money by international standards, plus get sabaticals overseas for a year or two to keep that talent stream within NZR structures

Probably I'm a bit "blue-sky thinking" / idealistic / talking bollocks (take your pick ) ... but maybe with Silverlake money NZR could take a real hard/proactive look at how to retain the best SR coaching talent onshore - for example by closing the international pay gaps, look at international sabatical/exchange arrangements for coaches too

Just have a personal feeling that because of that overall 2008-2016 AB domination, Henry-Smith-Hansen wonder-team etc that NZR have become a bit complacement on the role of coaching talent / pathways in keeping that competitive edge needed for an "always #1" ambition level. Should Shag have been allowed to stay on 2 years 2016-2017, was the lack of (real) coaching team competition after 2019 RWC just some top-down symptoms of it all being a bit "chummy" in NZR etc?

I actually like our coaches going overseas , as I really believe it makes them better coaches, Henry, Hansen etc were I believe better coaches for doing overseas gigs.
Listen to Eddie Jones who says he thinks he learns more off players than they learn off him!

Me too. It's why I'd rather see Joe Schmid or Jamie Joseph as the next AB head coach rather than Scott Robertson next round

I may get flamed on the Fern - but for many reasons including his own development I'd love to see SR coach England after Eddie and return to NZ downstream

@nta I saw Quade swallow before last kick, he looked nervous but still nailed it. So happy for him and Australia.

Totally enjoyed both games for quite differrent reasons.

The Gods of Rugby are smiling tonight for many reasons, not only because the prodigal son has returned!

I keep think that Steve McDowell was the prototype for the modern prop, so far ahead of his time.

@nta said in Wallabies v Springboks II:

And sure, there is the argument that Kerevi was down low and what choice did he have?

No attempt to use the arms. That's a choice. Never trying to bind. Also a choice.

Head or head/shoulder of the Bok player direct to the head. Reckless is being polite (imo either dumb or pure frustrated thuggery, I can't read minds) but was hard to see any mitigation. I couldn't believe it wasn't a straight red card.

The Ref knew the game was over and wanted his shower and a beer or two with minimum fuss I think but happy it's been cited. If not it would have been a terrible precedent.

Another fascinating Nick Bishop piece today https://www.theroar.com.au/2021/09/24/coachs-corner-issue-27-who-is-really-the-number-one-team-in-the-world/

"The Springboks have lost the most own-ball rucks (6.7 per cent), and have the slowest average ruck speed at 4.1 seconds per breakdown – compared to New Zealand’s 3.9 per cent loss rate and 2.8 average ruck speed.

They have made only six clean breaks and eight offloads in four games, compared to 35 and 40 by the All Blacks ... The combination of poor ruck stats, and the low ratio of offloads attempted suggests that they don’t dare to shift the ball through the hands too often, for fear of losing it to the most lethal counter-attacking side on the planet."

Hooper is a cracking player but I wonder if he'd come up through the NZ system if he'd have ended up as an international 12 or 13.

@crazy-horse Not sure your work, but I think it can happen in any field tbh

I personally feel there's a point that can hit around 50 which is way more than a mid-life crisis. It's existential and you may already know that (deep down) swapping companies or jobs isn't the answer. I DO know the exact feeling you describe btw

It can feel hard to stay stop because we're all trained be "succesful", to know what's next and have a sure plan, or to grind things out (somehow) to retirement.? Also we may have responsibilities like kids, finances etc

Sometimes simply saying that you need an open-ended "time-out" can be the hardest thing to do in life ... just my 2 cents, and kind of where I am

So - full understanding, and I wish you the best so much

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

Also, I remember a video segment from RNZ where he mentions his desire to quote 'show that he is 'innovative'..

And to be fair to him... being the first AB coach to lose to Argentina, was a ground-breaking achievement for Foz.

I think the worst thing he claimed, and didn't deliver on, was the commitment to physicality in the forwards.

He correctly identified the issue, then failed completely to bring along/select the right players to address the problem

We have played powder puff (copyright Walrus) rugby all year.

Go to 55 seconds, he pretty much addresses this, and even gets pressed further by Campbell about it.

Mortifying to watch now after what's since transpired under Fozzie, he hasn't fulfilled these points to any degree.

Watching this right now it's apparent he's completely & utterly out of his depth as an international coach & is simply clueless with regards to the best course of action that should be required for this team going forward.

Just words alone cannot describe the inadequacy on display here.

How is this level of incompetence acceptable for the NZR?

States the obvious; "we got smacked against England, what have we learnt from that?" and then proceeds to vomit HR twaddle about "freshening an organisation, how we deliver messages, the people that we use to deliver messages, grow our leaders, grow our mental skills, culture, younger group of players coming through from different backgrounds that we need to take into account and figure out how we link and communicate with them."

And some people still wonder why we've seen no development in how we play in over two years? He's not helped by the snivelling shit of an interviewer, but if that was the brief to the NZR selection committee, small wonder the game is in the parlous state it is. From the top down the organisation is being replaced with mediocrity and as they permeate through it becomes harder to identify them.

It all starts at the top, because we have idiots on the NZRU Board we end up with an incompetent coach - even though we won The Rugby Championship you could see the cracks appearing... on the UK tour we lost really badly against Ireland, didn't learn from those obvious mistakes, so lost the same pathetic way against France too.

We are not even doing the basics in the forwards when we have possession, there's a real lack of mongrel/urgency taking the ball up, also we're not getting enough numbers to clean, blowing their players out the way so we can get quicker ball to our backs.

Foster's tactic to use box kicks to counter the rushing defence is pathetic... when the opposition are really slowing your ball down you need to kick, but is has to be smart kicking, like wipers kicks deep towards the sideline or corners, get them scrambling back, because the opposition are standing up so flat with this rugby league type defence there's going to be acres of space behind them.

"It all starts at the top". Is it just me who feels that SuperRugby for all it's intensity in the NZ derbies, no longer prepares teams for an elite international defensive structure?

(There's a great 1014 interview on Youtube with Scott Robertson and Ronan O'Gara where Scott admits that ROG really challenged his own ideas on defense ... just a good example)

Regaining a coaching innovation edge is only part of the problem, I suspect some some structural issues and complacency are underpinning this too

@machpants I love watching AB rugby and the Skillz (TM) on display, no team does it better

But what I really love is when an AB pack comes out totally fired up against a full French or English pack who are ALSO totally fired up and gradually not just get "parity" but beat them head on physically. Often that takes 65+ minutes and it's 9-6 or 6-9 but the other side is dead on their feet by then

THEN you can show the skills and maybe let BB shovel a pass to 12 to run a crash ball and set up next forward phase

I'm half joking tbh, but the great teams know when that upfront edge is pretty mainly what is needed on a certain day ... it seems to go missing sometimes in the ABs the last few years.

If not NZ, I really hope France win the next world cup btw

@nta I started contracting young at 25 purely for the money but continued it more as I found I liked the lifestyle and flexibility. I can work at 110%+ for long periods and enjoyed it - a good project can be 18-24 months (my field is corporate IT) .

Contracting let me do this, then take off 6 months to chill and travel before looking around again

Also I've taken 6 months contracts with big-corporates where I've stayed on for around 5 or more years because it all "clicked" and they had a pipeline. Medium companies can't offer this imho

But yes, contracting works best done either before the kids are at school or after they leave!

@kirwan said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p we select ABs from overseas then the game is pretty much dead here. Will be a weaker version of Wales in the 80s.

Agreed and it's reality for NZR. It would be a disaster. It was more in reply to a comment on black-and-white thinking that's all

Fossie isn't the best, but the NZR selection process last round that annointed him seems the bigger issue imo ... obviously the elite coaching talent "out there" all have connections and talk - realised it was a closed shop. Every large organization starts to lower it's standards once it all becomes a bit chummy ... and here we today?

As an analogy - it's why many large companies prefer to promote from within up to a pretty senior level (say VP, SVP) yet the very top and innovative strategic roles (CEO, COO, maybe CFO too) are external hires far more often than not

@machpants Yeah. Rieko at 11 and Jordie at 15. Let Havili continue to develop as a test level 12, which he's looking like. TJP off the bench. Natural playmakers at 10 and 12, not cramming DMac in at 15.

Actually looks sensible ... good even ... very good.

@sparky said in Would-be hardmen thread:

Proper hardmen:

Colin Meads
Kevin Skinner
Uli Schmidt
Buck Shelford
Richard Hill
Jerome Kaino

@sparky Totally, I can imagine a few French in there though too?

That Jerry Collins tackle reminds me some some interviews Schalke Burger gave about him. No quarter given, just total respect (even if Schalke had touches of the red mist on the field from memory). Both were absolute gents off the pitch