The Silver Fern

@victor-meldrew said in Six Nations 2022:

@nepia said in Six Nations 2022:

I don't know who to cheer for in this competition.

Maybe Scotland, but @MN5's Neuter like claims of their probably success gives me pause.

I used to support France but their pro comp makes it harder these days.

Maybe Wales. Yeah, I'll go for Wales.

Being really childish here, but always want Ireland to lose while that fluffybunny Sexton is in the team.

I tend to go for Wales then Scotland as they generally play the game as it should be played. Reason Wales is top for me is probably down to the Welsh fans who are always great to have a beer with - never been to Murrayfield though.

My take is any of the 5 sides could win this year and @MN5 has point that Scootlinnd has as good a chance as anyone. Bring it on.

Setxon and Farrell have the same intense dislikeability factors ... "that face", petulant, yet pretty decent players? Thinking out loud, add Itoje too

Have to admit the 6N has grown on me over the years. Competive, but the quality is better too. In order for me -

1. Scotland - like how they play, Finn Russell, Hogg, loosies etc (they won't win, maybe 2/3 though)
2. France - soft spot for them since the mid-80s, always lots of talent even if unharnessed. Love to see their renaissance at national level continue
3. Wales - mainly because I like Wayne Pivac and his attempt to de-Gatlandise them (let's see if it works though!)

@kirwan said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p we select ABs from overseas then the game is pretty much dead here. Will be a weaker version of Wales in the 80s.

Agreed and it's reality for NZR. It would be a disaster. It was more in reply to a comment on black-and-white thinking that's all

Fossie isn't the best, but the NZR selection process last round that annointed him seems the bigger issue imo ... obviously the elite coaching talent "out there" all have connections and talk - realised it was a closed shop. Every large organization starts to lower it's standards once it all becomes a bit chummy ... and here we today?

As an analogy - it's why many large companies prefer to promote from within up to a pretty senior level (say VP, SVP) yet the very top and innovative strategic roles (CEO, COO, maybe CFO too) are external hires far more often than not

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:

Or those who have convinced themselves they know the inner workings of the AB set up, know what is happening, who is responsible for what, and why the people inside it are doing what they are doing. Or, most importantly, why people are being given a particular role.

The issue with bad coaches in good teams is the rot is slow and it takes a long time to notice because the old systems from the good coaches (wink,wink Wayne Smith, Hansen...) are still in the player's minds but they eventually forget, the slide begins, the losses come and you forget how to win. South Africa had recently been there, experienced that with Coetzee and were pretty fortunate that they had a miracle (in Rassie) on speed dial.

I mentioned it when Foster was initially appointed. Human relations 101, it's even in a NZ written university text book; the highest predictor of positive future performance is past positive performance in a similar recent role. It's about 70% accurate, other predictors are not much more these 50%, or not much better than chance no matter what product and a recruiting firm would want to sell you (beware of their hype as they're selling their product).

The evidence points to the fact that Foster's past record as head coach of a professional rugby team is dire.

Added one word only ... my qualification is that I'm dubious that club/SR level head coaching success translates directly to top international level, though it can do with the right person. A lot is about the coaching team though, so if Scott Robertson interviews for Head Coach and could bring a team like say Tony Brown and Joe Schmid to the table it would say a lot about him just to get those type of buy-ins

(I'm biased as if Scott Robertson wants but doesn't get the next AB gig - he might end up as Eddie's replacement which would be fascinating for the lolz, and the Fern will have a meltdown! Otherwise my money might be on Steve Borthwick over here as he was a long-term assistant coach for England, RFU connections, head coach of Leicester since 2020)

Personally I don't have a problem with AB's playing overseas and being selected from there btw, NZR do ... that's more structural and financial though? Some good examples of motivated younger (non-AB or AB-fringe) players who have succesfully continued to develop in Europe. Some stagnate too.

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

@rotated said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

@rotated said in All Blacks 2021:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@sparky said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p I'd be happy for Razor to get the top job because of his energy, enthusiasm and ability to get the very best out of his players, but with a heavyweight, experienced Assistant (Smith, Rennie, Joseph, Schmidt, Gatland, even Deans or Mitchell).

Yeah, Razor is an excellent coach & would do a really good job as head coach for the AB's - he has good rugby nous, so certainly wouldn't need to rely heavily on a very experienced coaching assistant - it's not vital if hasn't coached another country overseas, also the bloke is in his mid to late 40's & has won 4 or 5 Super Rugby titles... NZ Super Rugby is based on a really fast paced game, the same style the ABs play, so with all his experience as a Super Rugby coach he's the type of bloke we need, would have liked a Robertson/Brown combo, would be a top mix as one use to play in the forwards & the other in the backs.

Where does this confidence come from? With Smith, Henry, Hansen, Jones, Gatland, McKenzie, Wyllie, Hart and Deans (whichever job you count) shit hit the fan during their first international appointment. Why would Razor be any different and things go to custard like his second campaign with the U20s?

Also why are we so sure that he isn't going to follow the trend of most (but not all) Crusaders/Canterbury coaches having major issues once moving to a different environment?

I'm in favour of a Razor appointment in the style of Rassie, Cheika or Mitch given where we are in the cycle. He is well suited to shake things up and will improve the side in the short term. But we have to be realistic that over the medium to long term the odds are against him.

It pays to note that Razor was only 41 years of age (had only been a pro head coach for 2 years) during that U20 campaign, while they finished with the best points differential, and despite losing that single pool match (2nd seed in their pool, with superior PD to Ireland) didn't quality for the knockouts (2016 was the 1st season where the U20 tournament format changed to having only the no1 seed from each pool going through). He then proceeded to put 71 points and 55 points respectively on Wales & Australia in the plate matches.

Razor's record with the U20's was still 93%, he dropped that one game in 2016, and his 2015 win was NZ's first since 2011.. the longest drought they'd seen.

What's become extensively clear is the biggest issues for NZ under Foster has been the breakdown, set-piece, and winning the contact when carrying.

Crucially, these are 3 areas that Razor and Jason Ryan hold key expertise in.

Razor being a breakdown & ruck specialist and Ryan with our set-pieces.

It's time to finally implement some remedies, the meaningful ones.

They got smashed by Ireland then turned around and burgled a win against Wales with a last minute Jordie Barrett penalty.

Now this was five years ago so no one should hold it too much against him, but he obviously doesn't have some midas touch if we are struggling to put away Wales and Ireland at age group level with him at the helm.

For me success at domestic or Super Rugby level is the price of admission to be considered as AB coach, but only that. One SR title is as good as five to me. More interested in breadth of experience.

What was Shane Warne's sledge on Monty Panesar? He hasn't played thirty tests, he has played the same test thirty times. There is a bit of that with Robertson as there was with Deans.

They beat Wales 71–12 in their following match.

I've heard accounts from his acquaintances, current and former players, Razor is considered a rugby genius by those who know him personally. Meanwhile, you're mindlessly speculating on the internet. Former All Blacks, who were coached by the very best (Henry, Deans, Hansen) and rate Robertson significantly higher than those listed. Razor is considered Wayne Smith's equal among the players I have talked with.

Yet Wayne Smith wasn't the best AB coach, and his (2-year?) experience there showed him that? Not saying Scott Robertson is the same, just that failing at international level is part of learning your stengths - and more importantly weaknesses at the top level.

Henry and Eddie Jones have both spoken openly about what they got wrong

@rotated said in All Blacks 2021:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@sparky said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p I'd be happy for Razor to get the top job because of his energy, enthusiasm and ability to get the very best out of his players, but with a heavyweight, experienced Assistant (Smith, Rennie, Joseph, Schmidt, Gatland, even Deans or Mitchell).

Yeah, Razor is an excellent coach & would do a really good job as head coach for the AB's - he has good rugby nous, so certainly wouldn't need to rely heavily on a very experienced coaching assistant - it's not vital if hasn't coached another country overseas, also the bloke is in his mid to late 40's & has won 4 or 5 Super Rugby titles... NZ Super Rugby is based on a really fast paced game, the same style the ABs play, so with all his experience as a Super Rugby coach he's the type of bloke we need, would have liked a Robertson/Brown combo, would be a top mix as one use to play in the forwards & the other in the backs.

Where does this confidence come from? With Smith, Henry, Hansen, Jones, Gatland, McKenzie, Wyllie, Hart and Deans (whichever job you count) shit hit the fan during their first international appointment. Why would Razor be any different and things go to custard like his second campaign with the U20s?

Also why are we so sure that he isn't going to follow the trend of most (but not all) Crusaders/Canterbury coaches having major issues once moving to a different environment?

I'm in favour of a Razor appointment in the style of Rassie, Cheika or Mitch given where we are in the cycle. He is well suited to shake things up and will improve the side in the short term. But we have to be realistic that over the medium to long term the odds are against him.

International Head Coach is very different from even top Club/Provincial/SR coaching.
Selection, lack of access to players, expectations, man-management, crazy levels of politics and also mind-games?

Henry, Hansen, Smith, Eddie Jones all went through that. Schmidt too now. Failing is part of learning

I'd love to see Scott Robertson as AB coach downstream but see prior international experience as hugely useful

@sparky said in Would-be hardmen thread:

Proper hardmen:

Colin Meads
Kevin Skinner
Uli Schmidt
Buck Shelford
Richard Hill
Jerome Kaino

@sparky Totally, I can imagine a few French in there though too?

That Jerry Collins tackle reminds me some some interviews Schalke Burger gave about him. No quarter given, just total respect (even if Schalke had touches of the red mist on the field from memory). Both were absolute gents off the pitch

@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:

@booboo I played 9 about half my "career" but I was more like a slow 6 with a shit pass...

Eddie likes that skillset for England, and needs a replacement for Ben Youngs tbh?

The only criticism of Smith isn't that he box kicks as per team tactics, only that he's not as accurate as say Connor Murray, who can be pinpoint on a good day. On attack he takes very heads-up options.

@dan54 maybe I'm giving NZR more credit than they're due (based on recent evidence anyway) but I have some idea how large orgs think, so my gut feel is Schmidt has been parachuted in as an 'insider' option. But without any guarantees made, unlike the way 2019 seemed to work. He's obviously kept excellent NZR relations as he turned down an Assistant role previously and yet is back in there, it's unlikely to be random imo

But unlike last round, looks like it will be a proper competition for the AB Head Coach role after the next RwC, which I'd put my money on France to win btw

I always bear in mind even top international HCs 'disappoint' eventually on their first gig ... Henry, Hansen, Eddie Jones etc. It's that crazy/unfulfilled ambition that keeps them learning and want the next level up. I thought Gatland had it too, now feel his may have been quenched - not by Wales, but by his overall Lions success

Key attributes of the ideal AB coach now, a personal view. What are we missing?

• Experience: Intenational Head Coach previously and:
  -- The ability to assemble and retain a the best coaching team with innovative thinkers/thinking within that (ego management a big part)
  -- Proven record of demonstrated & progressive success, interspersed with failure and self-learning (aka a winner with battle scars, failing upwards)
  -- Almost unlimited ambition (keeps moving on and up) tempered with personal humility
  -- Zero complacency. Just frikken' zero
  -- Anyone who fancies a "Director of Rugby role" anywhere/any level has lost their ambition/edge and is disqualified (looking at you, Warren!)
  -- Can manage upwards, so prior NZR trust/connections/smooching DO help
  -- Self confidence to develop an Assistant as their potential successor, knows when to move on

• Tactically astute, with a personal vision for how he wants the team to play
  -- Visionary not reactive
  -- Willingness to innovate and lose in a healthy way for a bit (when innovating)
  -- Tactically flexible for the big games
  -- Pick the right players and to match tactics, not just pick the "best players"
  -- Ruthless, knows when to drop players regardless of seniority / pay-grade to make the point
  -- Actions match words/vision => team selection
  -- Player-management ... who needs a kick-up-the ass? Who won't respond to that?
  -- "Lucky" ... sorry but it's SO true imo

Potentials: Schmid, Joseph, Rennie (won't happen ... but I rate him)

Close but no cigar: Eddie Jones (won't happen, wrong guy for the AB setup mainly based on being a lone-wolf operator, witness the revolving gate on Assistants plus total lack an England successor despite it being a stated goal a few year back)

Potential, but not yet: Scott Robertson - lack of international international experience, lack of "failing upwards" (yet, but it's part of growing)

Probably not: Warren G (think he's lot his hands-on edge and ambition. Time will tell)

Currently -

• Schmid ticks the most boxes, but if he has the ambition is tbd?
• Joseph might be able to bring the best coaching team if he can can manage his and all the egos, so tbd?
• Status quo - Fozzie always seems to have few standouts apart from his NZR connections and managing upwards. Maybe man-management too as he seems a nice bloke at a personal level

** My views may not represent TSF "consensus"!

Thoughts?

@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

Also, I remember a video segment from RNZ where he mentions his desire to quote 'show that he is 'innovative'..

And to be fair to him... being the first AB coach to lose to Argentina, was a ground-breaking achievement for Foz.

I think the worst thing he claimed, and didn't deliver on, was the commitment to physicality in the forwards.

He correctly identified the issue, then failed completely to bring along/select the right players to address the problem

We have played powder puff (copyright Walrus) rugby all year.

Go to 55 seconds, he pretty much addresses this, and even gets pressed further by Campbell about it.

Mortifying to watch now after what's since transpired under Fozzie, he hasn't fulfilled these points to any degree.

Watching this right now it's apparent he's completely & utterly out of his depth as an international coach & is simply clueless with regards to the best course of action that should be required for this team going forward.

Just words alone cannot describe the inadequacy on display here.

How is this level of incompetence acceptable for the NZR?

States the obvious; "we got smacked against England, what have we learnt from that?" and then proceeds to vomit HR twaddle about "freshening an organisation, how we deliver messages, the people that we use to deliver messages, grow our leaders, grow our mental skills, culture, younger group of players coming through from different backgrounds that we need to take into account and figure out how we link and communicate with them."

And some people still wonder why we've seen no development in how we play in over two years? He's not helped by the snivelling shit of an interviewer, but if that was the brief to the NZR selection committee, small wonder the game is in the parlous state it is. From the top down the organisation is being replaced with mediocrity and as they permeate through it becomes harder to identify them.

It all starts at the top, because we have idiots on the NZRU Board we end up with an incompetent coach - even though we won The Rugby Championship you could see the cracks appearing... on the UK tour we lost really badly against Ireland, didn't learn from those obvious mistakes, so lost the same pathetic way against France too.

We are not even doing the basics in the forwards when we have possession, there's a real lack of mongrel/urgency taking the ball up, also we're not getting enough numbers to clean, blowing their players out the way so we can get quicker ball to our backs.

Foster's tactic to use box kicks to counter the rushing defence is pathetic... when the opposition are really slowing your ball down you need to kick, but is has to be smart kicking, like wipers kicks deep towards the sideline or corners, get them scrambling back, because the opposition are standing up so flat with this rugby league type defence there's going to be acres of space behind them.

"It all starts at the top". Is it just me who feels that SuperRugby for all it's intensity in the NZ derbies, no longer prepares teams for an elite international defensive structure?

(There's a great 1014 interview on Youtube with Scott Robertson and Ronan O'Gara where Scott admits that ROG really challenged his own ideas on defense ... just a good example)

Regaining a coaching innovation edge is only part of the problem, I suspect some some structural issues and complacency are underpinning this too

Spot on mate - it's not just a problem with Super Rugby, but in world rugby too.

Heaps of times in games we see a ton of aimless kicking, deep down the middle of the field directly to a player, that's just giving good possession away, also those bloody box kicks are way overdone, need to vary your tactics accurately.

Players tend to grubber kick directly into the legs of an opposition player & don't get the weight on the ball right either, if they had any sense they'd look to guide the ball along the deck between the other sides players.
Really annoys me when dumb intercept tries are given away & silly passes in general are thrown to gift the opposition the ball, also charge downs from kicks - christ, these blokes are meant to be professionals ? ...these things would hardly ever happen if each player bothered to read the game properly & have a quick look for a split second to see if a kick or pass was on or not, clearly if it isn't go to ground & set the ball up.

The joy of watching the ABs has always been that fantasic philosophy that a great attack can outwit a great defense "somehow" ... tactics and skills and speed (fitness can no longer be a point of difference)

Given this, what gets me is that NZ tactical innovation seems to have stalled vs modern defenses ... yet SR is the only experience route to prepare up-and-coming / fringe ABs, so I see it as a structural issue, not just a pure AB-level coaching issue ... how to best use SR teams/coaches to prepare the future ABs (who pay all the bills)
And assume that Sean Edwards-style defenses need to be a new defensive benchmark they'll face more and more, not the exception

Hansen was a good coach, but not a great one, he didn't have much insight how to counter a rushing defence either, that showed in the Lions series in NZ - Foster is a complete clown though, so all he's going do is continue to ruin the team, Schmidt has a good rugby brain, hope Foster takes a lot of advice from him, because he desperately needs it.

Against a rushing defence there's really only two options, taking the ball up in phases when you have some momentum going forward - when the opposition really slow your ball down it's pointless to continue to run into a brick wall... so adjust to execute a smart accurate kicking game, wiper kicks into space deep into the corners, grubbers weighted into space etc.

That's a really dumb tactic the AB coaching staff have against a rushing by executing a lot of box kicks/up & unders - with those type of kicks you have less than a 50/50 chance of getting the possession back, also the ball only travels about 30 metres up field.
The players have to take some blame as well, they're the ones playing on the field... our playmakers 9 & 10 should be reading play far better, by consistently taking good options & executing them accurately.

Just that imo future AB playmakers 9, 10, maybe 12 need to playing against more aggressive rush defenses at SR level consistently to learn to deal with it at the next level down ... how to achieve that is a structural and coaching issue for NZR

All the other comps around the world are no more aggressive rushing defence wise than in the Super Rugby Comp - yeah, part of it is about a coaching & structural issue - the majority of it though is about 9, 10 & the midfield not using that thing between their ears called a brain very much... like any bloody sport it's about reading the situation at the time, then taking the best option, not difficult to analsye.

That womble Foster made a big stuff up by not wanting Laumape - we lack that intimidating midfield power runner that can consistently get us over the advantage line... Laumape also had good all-round skills sets, plenty of gas & reads play well.

Totally, and NZ aims to be #1 ALL the time ... it's bl**dy hard to keep that edge long-term, you need to be very forward looking, look at talent management across the board, pay the $$$ for the current and future stars and be absolutely ruthless when to cull/fire

The depth of kiwi coaching worldwide is unbelievable right? Just that GREAT coaching talent (judging by later success) moves on from SR to develop

Whereas even GOOD-ish ABs get paid pretty decent money by international standards, plus get sabaticals overseas for a year or two to keep that talent stream within NZR structures

Probably I'm a bit "blue-sky thinking" / idealistic / talking bollocks (take your pick ) ... but maybe with Silverlake money NZR could take a real hard/proactive look at how to retain the best SR coaching talent onshore - for example by closing the international pay gaps, look at international sabatical/exchange arrangements for coaches too

Just have a personal feeling that because of that overall 2008-2016 AB domination, Henry-Smith-Hansen wonder-team etc that NZR have become a bit complacement on the role of coaching talent / pathways in keeping that competitive edge needed for an "always #1" ambition level. Should Shag have been allowed to stay on 2 years 2016-2017, was the lack of (real) coaching team competition after 2019 RWC just some top-down symptoms of it all being a bit "chummy" in NZR etc?

I actually like our coaches going overseas , as I really believe it makes them better coaches, Henry, Hansen etc were I believe better coaches for doing overseas gigs.
Listen to Eddie Jones who says he thinks he learns more off players than they learn off him!

Me too. It's why I'd rather see Joe Schmid or Jamie Joseph as the next AB head coach rather than Scott Robertson next round

I may get flamed on the Fern - but for many reasons including his own development I'd love to see SR coach England after Eddie and return to NZ downstream

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

Also, I remember a video segment from RNZ where he mentions his desire to quote 'show that he is 'innovative'..

And to be fair to him... being the first AB coach to lose to Argentina, was a ground-breaking achievement for Foz.

I think the worst thing he claimed, and didn't deliver on, was the commitment to physicality in the forwards.

He correctly identified the issue, then failed completely to bring along/select the right players to address the problem

We have played powder puff (copyright Walrus) rugby all year.

Go to 55 seconds, he pretty much addresses this, and even gets pressed further by Campbell about it.

Mortifying to watch now after what's since transpired under Fozzie, he hasn't fulfilled these points to any degree.

Watching this right now it's apparent he's completely & utterly out of his depth as an international coach & is simply clueless with regards to the best course of action that should be required for this team going forward.

Just words alone cannot describe the inadequacy on display here.

How is this level of incompetence acceptable for the NZR?

States the obvious; "we got smacked against England, what have we learnt from that?" and then proceeds to vomit HR twaddle about "freshening an organisation, how we deliver messages, the people that we use to deliver messages, grow our leaders, grow our mental skills, culture, younger group of players coming through from different backgrounds that we need to take into account and figure out how we link and communicate with them."

And some people still wonder why we've seen no development in how we play in over two years? He's not helped by the snivelling shit of an interviewer, but if that was the brief to the NZR selection committee, small wonder the game is in the parlous state it is. From the top down the organisation is being replaced with mediocrity and as they permeate through it becomes harder to identify them.

It all starts at the top, because we have idiots on the NZRU Board we end up with an incompetent coach - even though we won The Rugby Championship you could see the cracks appearing... on the UK tour we lost really badly against Ireland, didn't learn from those obvious mistakes, so lost the same pathetic way against France too.

We are not even doing the basics in the forwards when we have possession, there's a real lack of mongrel/urgency taking the ball up, also we're not getting enough numbers to clean, blowing their players out the way so we can get quicker ball to our backs.

Foster's tactic to use box kicks to counter the rushing defence is pathetic... when the opposition are really slowing your ball down you need to kick, but is has to be smart kicking, like wipers kicks deep towards the sideline or corners, get them scrambling back, because the opposition are standing up so flat with this rugby league type defence there's going to be acres of space behind them.

"It all starts at the top". Is it just me who feels that SuperRugby for all it's intensity in the NZ derbies, no longer prepares teams for an elite international defensive structure?

(There's a great 1014 interview on Youtube with Scott Robertson and Ronan O'Gara where Scott admits that ROG really challenged his own ideas on defense ... just a good example)

Regaining a coaching innovation edge is only part of the problem, I suspect some some structural issues and complacency are underpinning this too

Spot on mate - it's not just a problem with Super Rugby, but in world rugby too.

Heaps of times in games we see a ton of aimless kicking, deep down the middle of the field directly to a player, that's just giving good possession away, also those bloody box kicks are way overdone, need to vary your tactics accurately.

Players tend to grubber kick directly into the legs of an opposition player & don't get the weight on the ball right either, if they had any sense they'd look to guide the ball along the deck between the other sides players.
Really annoys me when dumb intercept tries are given away & silly passes in general are thrown to gift the opposition the ball, also charge downs from kicks - christ, these blokes are meant to be professionals ? ...these things would hardly ever happen if each player bothered to read the game properly & have a quick look for a split second to see if a kick or pass was on or not, clearly if it isn't go to ground & set the ball up.

The joy of watching the ABs has always been that fantasic philosophy that a great attack can outwit a great defense "somehow" ... tactics and skills and speed (fitness can no longer be a point of difference)

Given this, what gets me is that NZ tactical innovation seems to have stalled vs modern defenses ... yet SR is the only experience route to prepare up-and-coming / fringe ABs, so I see it as a structural issue, not just a pure AB-level coaching issue ... how to best use SR teams/coaches to prepare the future ABs (who pay all the bills)
And assume that Sean Edwards-style defenses need to be a new defensive benchmark they'll face more and more, not the exception

Hansen was a good coach, but not a great one, he didn't have much insight how to counter a rushing defence either, that showed in the Lions series in NZ - Foster is a complete clown though, so all he's going do is continue to ruin the team, Schmidt has a good rugby brain, hope Foster takes a lot of advice from him, because he desperately needs it.

Against a rushing defence there's really only two options, taking the ball up in phases when you have some momentum going forward - when the opposition really slow your ball down it's pointless to continue to run into a brick wall... so adjust to execute a smart accurate kicking game, wiper kicks into space deep into the corners, grubbers weighted into space etc.

That's a really dumb tactic the AB coaching staff have against a rushing by executing a lot of box kicks/up & unders - with those type of kicks you have less than a 50/50 chance of getting the possession back, also the ball only travels about 30 metres up field.
The players have to take some blame as well, they're the ones playing on the field... our playmakers 9 & 10 should be reading play far better, by consistently taking good options & executing them accurately.

Just that imo future AB playmakers 9, 10, maybe 12 need to playing against more aggressive rush defenses at SR level consistently to learn to deal with it at the next level down ... how to achieve that is a structural and coaching issue for NZR

All the other comps around the world are no more aggressive rushing defence wise than in the Super Rugby Comp - yeah, part of it is about a coaching & structural issue - the majority of it though is about 9, 10 & the midfield not using that thing between their ears called a brain very much... like any bloody sport it's about reading the situation at the time, then taking the best option, not difficult to analsye.

That womble Foster made a big stuff up by not wanting Laumape - we lack that intimidating midfield power runner that can consistently get us over the advantage line... Laumape also had good all-round skills sets, plenty of gas & reads play well.

Totally, and NZ aims to be #1 ALL the time ... it's bl**dy hard to keep that edge long-term, you need to be very forward looking, look at talent management across the board, pay the $$$ for the current and future stars and be absolutely ruthless when to cull/fire

The depth of kiwi coaching worldwide is unbelievable right? Just that GREAT coaching talent (judging by later success) moves on from SR to develop

Whereas even GOOD-ish ABs get paid pretty decent money by international standards, plus get sabaticals overseas for a year or two to keep that talent stream within NZR structures

Probably I'm a bit "blue-sky thinking" / idealistic / talking bollocks (take your pick ) ... but maybe with Silverlake money NZR could take a real hard/proactive look at how to retain the best SR coaching talent onshore - for example by closing the international pay gaps, look at international sabatical/exchange arrangements for coaches too

Just have a personal feeling that because of that overall 2008-2016 AB domination, Henry-Smith-Hansen wonder-team etc that NZR have become a bit complacement on the role of coaching talent / pathways in keeping that competitive edge needed for an "always #1" ambition level. Should Shag have been allowed to stay on 2 years 2016-2017, was the lack of (real) coaching team competition after 2019 RWC just some top-down symptoms of it all being a bit "chummy" in NZR etc?

Yeah, pretty difficult to keep an edge over a long period time in all areas of the game - that all starts by having the right people on the NZRU Board, then they select the right coaches etc... tactics wise on the field no one is going to come up with big innovations in the game as it's all been done before, can only make slight adjustments for a new tactic & play intelligent rugby.

Hansen stayed on too long, in the last year or so of his coaching he kept making too many changes every test leading up to that RWC - so when we played in the tournament we lacked cohesion & direction... so it's unbelievable that the NZRU twats thought it was a great idea to basically put the same coaching staff back in again.

Yeah, can't just blame coaches if at Board level you really hold the ambition level of always being #1 in any global field ...?

I did a over a decade in a company that was normally #1 globally in a major, fast moving industry. Didn't breath the rarified air (or money) at a global CxO level but did work close enough with a few of them to - enough to glimpse some of the the big picture vision and top-down decision-making coming via the Board and CEO top-down

At that level and enviornment it's brutal. Always working ahead on how structures and new direction based on being #1 in a few years. A zero tolerance for signs you're starting to cruise / be complacent. Yes you could definitely screw up big-time once - if they knew you had the goods - but normally a "two strikes and you're out attitude" on delivery

Translating that mentality into NZR Board terms is fun speculation, but best guess -

• Graham Henry would have got a second shot almost no doubt.
• Shag would have been politely asked to move on 2015 with a special exit payout and lots of thanks to ease the way
• Fossie would probably be part of collateral in any senior cull whenever Shag went
• Regardless, no way Fossie would be considered for the top role based on a promotion-from-within i.e. "continuity" and a serious look/headhunt externally

Amazing to be part of, fricken all-consuming though

Yeah, no doubt if you have the right people at the top in any organization consistently making good decisions & hiring the best people available that organization is going to run smoothly from the top all the way through.

I've mentioned before you can't come up with big innovations tactics wise as it's all been done before, can only make slight adjustments - at one stage Henry came up with an idiotic so called innovated game plan, that he use for 2 or 3 tests, holding onto the ball even if you're only a couple of metres out from your own goal line, hilarious, how did he think that was ever going to work ? one of the golden rules in the game is never stuff around deep in your own danger zone.

Totally (not a structural issue) but a strength of great coaches like Henry, Eddie Jones maybe is an ability to try experimental tactics, risk failures, and learn from it

Not sure if posted here before but I liked this btw!

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

Also, I remember a video segment from RNZ where he mentions his desire to quote 'show that he is 'innovative'..

And to be fair to him... being the first AB coach to lose to Argentina, was a ground-breaking achievement for Foz.

I think the worst thing he claimed, and didn't deliver on, was the commitment to physicality in the forwards.

He correctly identified the issue, then failed completely to bring along/select the right players to address the problem

We have played powder puff (copyright Walrus) rugby all year.

Go to 55 seconds, he pretty much addresses this, and even gets pressed further by Campbell about it.

Mortifying to watch now after what's since transpired under Fozzie, he hasn't fulfilled these points to any degree.

Watching this right now it's apparent he's completely & utterly out of his depth as an international coach & is simply clueless with regards to the best course of action that should be required for this team going forward.

Just words alone cannot describe the inadequacy on display here.

How is this level of incompetence acceptable for the NZR?

States the obvious; "we got smacked against England, what have we learnt from that?" and then proceeds to vomit HR twaddle about "freshening an organisation, how we deliver messages, the people that we use to deliver messages, grow our leaders, grow our mental skills, culture, younger group of players coming through from different backgrounds that we need to take into account and figure out how we link and communicate with them."

And some people still wonder why we've seen no development in how we play in over two years? He's not helped by the snivelling shit of an interviewer, but if that was the brief to the NZR selection committee, small wonder the game is in the parlous state it is. From the top down the organisation is being replaced with mediocrity and as they permeate through it becomes harder to identify them.

It all starts at the top, because we have idiots on the NZRU Board we end up with an incompetent coach - even though we won The Rugby Championship you could see the cracks appearing... on the UK tour we lost really badly against Ireland, didn't learn from those obvious mistakes, so lost the same pathetic way against France too.

We are not even doing the basics in the forwards when we have possession, there's a real lack of mongrel/urgency taking the ball up, also we're not getting enough numbers to clean, blowing their players out the way so we can get quicker ball to our backs.

Foster's tactic to use box kicks to counter the rushing defence is pathetic... when the opposition are really slowing your ball down you need to kick, but is has to be smart kicking, like wipers kicks deep towards the sideline or corners, get them scrambling back, because the opposition are standing up so flat with this rugby league type defence there's going to be acres of space behind them.

"It all starts at the top". Is it just me who feels that SuperRugby for all it's intensity in the NZ derbies, no longer prepares teams for an elite international defensive structure?

(There's a great 1014 interview on Youtube with Scott Robertson and Ronan O'Gara where Scott admits that ROG really challenged his own ideas on defense ... just a good example)

Regaining a coaching innovation edge is only part of the problem, I suspect some some structural issues and complacency are underpinning this too

Spot on mate - it's not just a problem with Super Rugby, but in world rugby too.

Heaps of times in games we see a ton of aimless kicking, deep down the middle of the field directly to a player, that's just giving good possession away, also those bloody box kicks are way overdone, need to vary your tactics accurately.

Players tend to grubber kick directly into the legs of an opposition player & don't get the weight on the ball right either, if they had any sense they'd look to guide the ball along the deck between the other sides players.
Really annoys me when dumb intercept tries are given away & silly passes in general are thrown to gift the opposition the ball, also charge downs from kicks - christ, these blokes are meant to be professionals ? ...these things would hardly ever happen if each player bothered to read the game properly & have a quick look for a split second to see if a kick or pass was on or not, clearly if it isn't go to ground & set the ball up.

The joy of watching the ABs has always been that fantasic philosophy that a great attack can outwit a great defense "somehow" ... tactics and skills and speed (fitness can no longer be a point of difference)

Given this, what gets me is that NZ tactical innovation seems to have stalled vs modern defenses ... yet SR is the only experience route to prepare up-and-coming / fringe ABs, so I see it as a structural issue, not just a pure AB-level coaching issue ... how to best use SR teams/coaches to prepare the future ABs (who pay all the bills)
And assume that Sean Edwards-style defenses need to be a new defensive benchmark they'll face more and more, not the exception

Hansen was a good coach, but not a great one, he didn't have much insight how to counter a rushing defence either, that showed in the Lions series in NZ - Foster is a complete clown though, so all he's going do is continue to ruin the team, Schmidt has a good rugby brain, hope Foster takes a lot of advice from him, because he desperately needs it.

Against a rushing defence there's really only two options, taking the ball up in phases when you have some momentum going forward - when the opposition really slow your ball down it's pointless to continue to run into a brick wall... so adjust to execute a smart accurate kicking game, wiper kicks into space deep into the corners, grubbers weighted into space etc.

That's a really dumb tactic the AB coaching staff have against a rushing by executing a lot of box kicks/up & unders - with those type of kicks you have less than a 50/50 chance of getting the possession back, also the ball only travels about 30 metres up field.
The players have to take some blame as well, they're the ones playing on the field... our playmakers 9 & 10 should be reading play far better, by consistently taking good options & executing them accurately.

Just that imo future AB playmakers 9, 10, maybe 12 need to playing against more aggressive rush defenses at SR level consistently to learn to deal with it at the next level down ... how to achieve that is a structural and coaching issue for NZR

All the other comps around the world are no more aggressive rushing defence wise than in the Super Rugby Comp - yeah, part of it is about a coaching & structural issue - the majority of it though is about 9, 10 & the midfield not using that thing between their ears called a brain very much... like any bloody sport it's about reading the situation at the time, then taking the best option, not difficult to analsye.

That womble Foster made a big stuff up by not wanting Laumape - we lack that intimidating midfield power runner that can consistently get us over the advantage line... Laumape also had good all-round skills sets, plenty of gas & reads play well.

Totally, and NZ aims to be #1 ALL the time ... it's bl**dy hard to keep that edge long-term, you need to be very forward looking, look at talent management across the board, pay the $$$ for the current and future stars and be absolutely ruthless when to cull/fire

The depth of kiwi coaching worldwide is unbelievable right? Just that GREAT coaching talent (judging by later success) moves on from SR to develop

Whereas even GOOD-ish ABs get paid pretty decent money by international standards, plus get sabaticals overseas for a year or two to keep that talent stream within NZR structures

Probably I'm a bit "blue-sky thinking" / idealistic / talking bollocks (take your pick ) ... but maybe with Silverlake money NZR could take a real hard/proactive look at how to retain the best SR coaching talent onshore - for example by closing the international pay gaps, look at international sabatical/exchange arrangements for coaches too

Just have a personal feeling that because of that overall 2008-2016 AB domination, Henry-Smith-Hansen wonder-team etc that NZR have become a bit complacement on the role of coaching talent / pathways in keeping that competitive edge needed for an "always #1" ambition level. Should Shag have been allowed to stay on 2 years 2016-2017, was the lack of (real) coaching team competition after 2019 RWC just some top-down symptoms of it all being a bit "chummy" in NZR etc?

Yeah, pretty difficult to keep an edge over a long period time in all areas of the game - that all starts by having the right people on the NZRU Board, then they select the right coaches etc... tactics wise on the field no one is going to come up with big innovations in the game as it's all been done before, can only make slight adjustments for a new tactic & play intelligent rugby.

Hansen stayed on too long, in the last year or so of his coaching he kept making too many changes every test leading up to that RWC - so when we played in the tournament we lacked cohesion & direction... so it's unbelievable that the NZRU twats thought it was a great idea to basically put the same coaching staff back in again.

Yeah, can't just blame coaches if at Board level you really hold the ambition level of always being #1 in any global field ...?

I did a over a decade in a company that was normally #1 globally in a major, fast moving industry. Didn't breath the rarified air (or money) at a global CxO level but did work close enough with a few of them to - enough to glimpse some of the the big picture vision and top-down decision-making coming via the Board and CEO top-down

At that level and enviornment it's brutal. Always working ahead on how structures and new direction based on being #1 in a few years. A zero tolerance for signs you're starting to cruise / be complacent. Yes you could definitely screw up big-time once - if they knew you had the goods - but normally a "two strikes and you're out attitude" on delivery

Translating that mentality into NZR Board terms is fun speculation, but best guess -

• Graham Henry would have got a second shot almost no doubt.
• Shag would have been politely asked to move on 2015 with a special exit payout and lots of thanks to ease the way
• Fossie would probably be part of collateral in any senior cull whenever Shag went
• Regardless, no way Fossie would be considered for the top role based on a promotion-from-within i.e. "continuity" and a serious look/headhunt externally

Amazing to be part of, fricken all-consuming though

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

Also, I remember a video segment from RNZ where he mentions his desire to quote 'show that he is 'innovative'..

And to be fair to him... being the first AB coach to lose to Argentina, was a ground-breaking achievement for Foz.

I think the worst thing he claimed, and didn't deliver on, was the commitment to physicality in the forwards.

He correctly identified the issue, then failed completely to bring along/select the right players to address the problem

We have played powder puff (copyright Walrus) rugby all year.

Go to 55 seconds, he pretty much addresses this, and even gets pressed further by Campbell about it.

Mortifying to watch now after what's since transpired under Fozzie, he hasn't fulfilled these points to any degree.

Watching this right now it's apparent he's completely & utterly out of his depth as an international coach & is simply clueless with regards to the best course of action that should be required for this team going forward.

Just words alone cannot describe the inadequacy on display here.

How is this level of incompetence acceptable for the NZR?

States the obvious; "we got smacked against England, what have we learnt from that?" and then proceeds to vomit HR twaddle about "freshening an organisation, how we deliver messages, the people that we use to deliver messages, grow our leaders, grow our mental skills, culture, younger group of players coming through from different backgrounds that we need to take into account and figure out how we link and communicate with them."

And some people still wonder why we've seen no development in how we play in over two years? He's not helped by the snivelling shit of an interviewer, but if that was the brief to the NZR selection committee, small wonder the game is in the parlous state it is. From the top down the organisation is being replaced with mediocrity and as they permeate through it becomes harder to identify them.

It all starts at the top, because we have idiots on the NZRU Board we end up with an incompetent coach - even though we won The Rugby Championship you could see the cracks appearing... on the UK tour we lost really badly against Ireland, didn't learn from those obvious mistakes, so lost the same pathetic way against France too.

We are not even doing the basics in the forwards when we have possession, there's a real lack of mongrel/urgency taking the ball up, also we're not getting enough numbers to clean, blowing their players out the way so we can get quicker ball to our backs.

Foster's tactic to use box kicks to counter the rushing defence is pathetic... when the opposition are really slowing your ball down you need to kick, but is has to be smart kicking, like wipers kicks deep towards the sideline or corners, get them scrambling back, because the opposition are standing up so flat with this rugby league type defence there's going to be acres of space behind them.

"It all starts at the top". Is it just me who feels that SuperRugby for all it's intensity in the NZ derbies, no longer prepares teams for an elite international defensive structure?

(There's a great 1014 interview on Youtube with Scott Robertson and Ronan O'Gara where Scott admits that ROG really challenged his own ideas on defense ... just a good example)

Regaining a coaching innovation edge is only part of the problem, I suspect some some structural issues and complacency are underpinning this too

Spot on mate - it's not just a problem with Super Rugby, but in world rugby too.

Heaps of times in games we see a ton of aimless kicking, deep down the middle of the field directly to a player, that's just giving good possession away, also those bloody box kicks are way overdone, need to vary your tactics accurately.

Players tend to grubber kick directly into the legs of an opposition player & don't get the weight on the ball right either, if they had any sense they'd look to guide the ball along the deck between the other sides players.
Really annoys me when dumb intercept tries are given away & silly passes in general are thrown to gift the opposition the ball, also charge downs from kicks - christ, these blokes are meant to be professionals ? ...these things would hardly ever happen if each player bothered to read the game properly & have a quick look for a split second to see if a kick or pass was on or not, clearly if it isn't go to ground & set the ball up.

The joy of watching the ABs has always been that fantasic philosophy that a great attack can outwit a great defense "somehow" ... tactics and skills and speed (fitness can no longer be a point of difference)

Given this, what gets me is that NZ tactical innovation seems to have stalled vs modern defenses ... yet SR is the only experience route to prepare up-and-coming / fringe ABs, so I see it as a structural issue, not just a pure AB-level coaching issue ... how to best use SR teams/coaches to prepare the future ABs (who pay all the bills)
And assume that Sean Edwards-style defenses need to be a new defensive benchmark they'll face more and more, not the exception

Hansen was a good coach, but not a great one, he didn't have much insight how to counter a rushing defence either, that showed in the Lions series in NZ - Foster is a complete clown though, so all he's going do is continue to ruin the team, Schmidt has a good rugby brain, hope Foster takes a lot of advice from him, because he desperately needs it.

Against a rushing defence there's really only two options, taking the ball up in phases when you have some momentum going forward - when the opposition really slow your ball down it's pointless to continue to run into a brick wall... so adjust to execute a smart accurate kicking game, wiper kicks into space deep into the corners, grubbers weighted into space etc.

That's a really dumb tactic the AB coaching staff have against a rushing by executing a lot of box kicks/up & unders - with those type of kicks you have less than a 50/50 chance of getting the possession back, also the ball only travels about 30 metres up field.
The players have to take some blame as well, they're the ones playing on the field... our playmakers 9 & 10 should be reading play far better, by consistently taking good options & executing them accurately.

Just that imo future AB playmakers 9, 10, maybe 12 need to playing against more aggressive rush defenses at SR level consistently to learn to deal with it at the next level down ... how to achieve that is a structural and coaching issue for NZR

All the other comps around the world are no more aggressive rushing defence wise than in the Super Rugby Comp - yeah, part of it is about a coaching & structural issue - the majority of it though is about 9, 10 & the midfield not using that thing between their ears called a brain very much... like any bloody sport it's about reading the situation at the time, then taking the best option, not difficult to analsye.

That womble Foster made a big stuff up by not wanting Laumape - we lack that intimidating midfield power runner that can consistently get us over the advantage line... Laumape also had good all-round skills sets, plenty of gas & reads play well.

Totally, and NZ aims to be #1 ALL the time ... it's bl**dy hard to keep that edge long-term, you need to be very forward looking, look at talent management across the board, pay the $$$ for the current and future stars and be absolutely ruthless when to cull/fire

The depth of kiwi coaching worldwide is unbelievable right? Just that GREAT coaching talent (judging by later success) moves on from SR to develop

Whereas even GOOD-ish ABs get paid pretty decent money by international standards, plus get sabaticals overseas for a year or two to keep that talent stream within NZR structures

Probably I'm a bit "blue-sky thinking" / idealistic / talking bollocks (take your pick ) ... but maybe with Silverlake money NZR could take a real hard/proactive look at how to retain the best SR coaching talent onshore - for example by closing the international pay gaps, look at international sabatical/exchange arrangements for coaches too

Just have a personal feeling that because of that overall 2008-2016 AB domination, Henry-Smith-Hansen wonder-team etc that NZR have become a bit complacement on the role of coaching talent / pathways in keeping that competitive edge needed for an "always #1" ambition level. Should Shag have been allowed to stay on 2 years 2016-2017, was the lack of (real) coaching team competition after 2019 RWC just some top-down symptoms of it all being a bit "chummy" in NZR etc?

@dan54 It'll be as much about the coaching team, not just the head coach? And whether they can mesh/massage some big egos. Maybe I'm wistful for that Henry-Hansen-Smith dream team ... this I must admit

Put simply if either Jamie Joseph or Joe Schmid can rock up as Head Coach for interview with a team of both Scott Robertson and Tony Brown as assistants he can say "Look I've got all the bases covered, including Scott ... for your succession planning in 4-8 years"

Maybe I'll be wrong but my gut feel that NZR will prefer a new HC with international experience after Fozzie

Joe could have the inside running, has been given the nod and has been parachuted in already... quite often how things get managed behind the scenes in business.
And the way things work at rarified levels, we won't ever know

Scott Robertson could well be "kingmaker" as assistant coach and next-in-line? NZR have kept him very close onboard too and won't want to lose him overseas surely. So maybe

Joe Schmid + Scott Robertson + TBA
vs
Jamie Joseph + Tony Brown + TBA
vs
Warren + some blokes?

Would love to be a fly-on-the-wall seeing all the positioning and "chats" that must be in play (or have already happened) with NZR and between these guys

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

Also, I remember a video segment from RNZ where he mentions his desire to quote 'show that he is 'innovative'..

And to be fair to him... being the first AB coach to lose to Argentina, was a ground-breaking achievement for Foz.

I think the worst thing he claimed, and didn't deliver on, was the commitment to physicality in the forwards.

He correctly identified the issue, then failed completely to bring along/select the right players to address the problem

We have played powder puff (copyright Walrus) rugby all year.

Go to 55 seconds, he pretty much addresses this, and even gets pressed further by Campbell about it.

Mortifying to watch now after what's since transpired under Fozzie, he hasn't fulfilled these points to any degree.

Watching this right now it's apparent he's completely & utterly out of his depth as an international coach & is simply clueless with regards to the best course of action that should be required for this team going forward.

Just words alone cannot describe the inadequacy on display here.

How is this level of incompetence acceptable for the NZR?

States the obvious; "we got smacked against England, what have we learnt from that?" and then proceeds to vomit HR twaddle about "freshening an organisation, how we deliver messages, the people that we use to deliver messages, grow our leaders, grow our mental skills, culture, younger group of players coming through from different backgrounds that we need to take into account and figure out how we link and communicate with them."

And some people still wonder why we've seen no development in how we play in over two years? He's not helped by the snivelling shit of an interviewer, but if that was the brief to the NZR selection committee, small wonder the game is in the parlous state it is. From the top down the organisation is being replaced with mediocrity and as they permeate through it becomes harder to identify them.

It all starts at the top, because we have idiots on the NZRU Board we end up with an incompetent coach - even though we won The Rugby Championship you could see the cracks appearing... on the UK tour we lost really badly against Ireland, didn't learn from those obvious mistakes, so lost the same pathetic way against France too.

We are not even doing the basics in the forwards when we have possession, there's a real lack of mongrel/urgency taking the ball up, also we're not getting enough numbers to clean, blowing their players out the way so we can get quicker ball to our backs.

Foster's tactic to use box kicks to counter the rushing defence is pathetic... when the opposition are really slowing your ball down you need to kick, but is has to be smart kicking, like wipers kicks deep towards the sideline or corners, get them scrambling back, because the opposition are standing up so flat with this rugby league type defence there's going to be acres of space behind them.

"It all starts at the top". Is it just me who feels that SuperRugby for all it's intensity in the NZ derbies, no longer prepares teams for an elite international defensive structure?

(There's a great 1014 interview on Youtube with Scott Robertson and Ronan O'Gara where Scott admits that ROG really challenged his own ideas on defense ... just a good example)

Regaining a coaching innovation edge is only part of the problem, I suspect some some structural issues and complacency are underpinning this too

Spot on mate - it's not just a problem with Super Rugby, but in world rugby too.

Heaps of times in games we see a ton of aimless kicking, deep down the middle of the field directly to a player, that's just giving good possession away, also those bloody box kicks are way overdone, need to vary your tactics accurately.

Players tend to grubber kick directly into the legs of an opposition player & don't get the weight on the ball right either, if they had any sense they'd look to guide the ball along the deck between the other sides players.
Really annoys me when dumb intercept tries are given away & silly passes in general are thrown to gift the opposition the ball, also charge downs from kicks - christ, these blokes are meant to be professionals ? ...these things would hardly ever happen if each player bothered to read the game properly & have a quick look for a split second to see if a kick or pass was on or not, clearly if it isn't go to ground & set the ball up.

The joy of watching the ABs has always been that fantasic philosophy that a great attack can outwit a great defense "somehow" ... tactics and skills and speed (fitness can no longer be a point of difference)

Given this, what gets me is that NZ tactical innovation seems to have stalled vs modern defenses ... yet SR is the only experience route to prepare up-and-coming / fringe ABs, so I see it as a structural issue, not just a pure AB-level coaching issue ... how to best use SR teams/coaches to prepare the future ABs (who pay all the bills)
And assume that Sean Edwards-style defenses need to be a new defensive benchmark they'll face more and more, not the exception

Hansen was a good coach, but not a great one, he didn't have much insight how to counter a rushing defence either, that showed in the Lions series in NZ - Foster is a complete clown though, so all he's going do is continue to ruin the team, Schmidt has a good rugby brain, hope Foster takes a lot of advice from him, because he desperately needs it.

Against a rushing defence there's really only two options, taking the ball up in phases when you have some momentum going forward - when the opposition really slow your ball down it's pointless to continue to run into a brick wall... so adjust to execute a smart accurate kicking game, wiper kicks into space deep into the corners, grubbers weighted into space etc.

That's a really dumb tactic the AB coaching staff have against a rushing by executing a lot of box kicks/up & unders - with those type of kicks you have less than a 50/50 chance of getting the possession back, also the ball only travels about 30 metres up field.
The players have to take some blame as well, they're the ones playing on the field... our playmakers 9 & 10 should be reading play far better, by consistently taking good options & executing them accurately.

I think I simply agree with every word of that you know? Have a chocolate fish (are they still around even?)

Just that imo future AB playmakers 9, 10, maybe 12 need to playing against more aggressive rush defenses at SR level consistently to learn to deal with it at the next level down ... how to achieve that is a structural and coaching issue for NZR

@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@machpants said in All Blacks 2021:

@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:

is record is probably not as good as Fosters even

What? You have seen Ireland have their best period of rugby, ever, including first victories over ABs under his lead? His record is opposite ends of the spectrum to fossie - with his record 'highest ever losing score in SR final' 'highest ever losing score for ABs' 'Worst AB result vs Oz' 'first ever loss to Arg' (and he was part of the team that lost for the first time to Ireland), 'first loss to France in NH tour for 40 years+' etc etc

This 100%. Joe also nearly rolled the ABs back in 2013 in that amazing match, which was only his third match in charge after Samoa and Australia. He absolutely identified a set of tactics that got 105% out of Ireland - 6 Nations in 2014, 2015, 2018. Maybe he lost it a bit the last 18 months, maybe him announcing his departure didn't help the team by the 2019 WC ... but it's part of succession planning so he did the right (professional) thing to allow for that

I'm not sure what more can be asked/expected of a coach at that level ... it was his FIRST international coaching gig, has there even been a better first gig? He also strikes me as very thoughtful and - like Henry - someone who can/will recognise and learn where he can improve ongoing

The question mark for me would be whether after "failing" at the WC (failing is a relative term here ... but it's inevitable as an international head coach) he has that burning ambition to still want to get better as coach, and to keep shooting for the next level. The kind of relentless drive/ambition that say Graham Henry and Eddie Jones have shown in spades

He's not the messiah, but I'd have no problems assuming Joe really wants the AB role and has NZR inside running for the job, with Scott Robertson hopefully being lined up as one assistant (amazing loyalty, must have some kind of guarantee from NZR?)

Now NZR, just pay enough $$$ for say Shaun Edwards and Tony Brown too

I would rather NZR could get a Jamie Joseph, Razor , and Tony Brown or maybe Schmidt as one of them. But as I said Schmidt has been offered AB's assistant job before and didn't want it, so just maybe as not wanting to apply last year, maybe it not his ambition to coach them?

Yeah, Eddie is amazing but isn't a good fit for the AB unless you tolerate assistant coaches leaving every 12 months or so or being chucked. Shaun Edwards was a stir because it wouldn't happen for a few reasons, but hard to deny his credentials.

Not sure about Joe Schmid's ambition, but understandably he puts his family situation first and foremost. It may be with family settled in NZ he wants to step-up after the next RWC. Equally if he prefers a relatively "cushy" low-key selector role I couldn't blame the guy. Only time will tell us

@machpants said in All Blacks 2021:

@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:

is record is probably not as good as Fosters even

What? You have seen Ireland have their best period of rugby, ever, including first victories over ABs under his lead? His record is opposite ends of the spectrum to fossie - with his record 'highest ever losing score in SR final' 'highest ever losing score for ABs' 'Worst AB result vs Oz' 'first ever loss to Arg' (and he was part of the team that lost for the first time to Ireland), 'first loss to France in NH tour for 40 years+' etc etc

This 100%. Joe also nearly rolled the ABs back in 2013 in that amazing match, which was only his third match in charge after Samoa and Australia. He absolutely identified a set of tactics that got 105% out of Ireland - 6 Nations in 2014, 2015, 2018. Maybe he lost it a bit the last 18 months, maybe him announcing his departure didn't help the team by the 2019 WC ... but it's part of succession planning so he did the right (professional) thing to allow for that

I'm not sure what more can be asked/expected of a coach at that level ... it was his FIRST international coaching gig, has there even been a better first gig? He also strikes me as very thoughtful and - like Henry - someone who can/will recognise and learn where he can improve ongoing

The question mark for me would be whether after "failing" at the WC (failing is a relative term here ... but it's inevitable as an international head coach) he has that burning ambition to still want to get better as coach, and to keep shooting for the next level. The kind of relentless drive/ambition that say Graham Henry and Eddie Jones have shown in spades

He's not the messiah, but I'd have no problems assuming Joe really wants the AB role and has NZR inside running for the job, with Scott Robertson hopefully being lined up as one assistant (amazing loyalty, must have some kind of guarantee from NZR?)

Now NZR, just pay enough $$$ for say Shaun Edwards and Tony Brown too

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

Also, I remember a video segment from RNZ where he mentions his desire to quote 'show that he is 'innovative'..

And to be fair to him... being the first AB coach to lose to Argentina, was a ground-breaking achievement for Foz.

I think the worst thing he claimed, and didn't deliver on, was the commitment to physicality in the forwards.

He correctly identified the issue, then failed completely to bring along/select the right players to address the problem

We have played powder puff (copyright Walrus) rugby all year.

Go to 55 seconds, he pretty much addresses this, and even gets pressed further by Campbell about it.

Mortifying to watch now after what's since transpired under Fozzie, he hasn't fulfilled these points to any degree.

Watching this right now it's apparent he's completely & utterly out of his depth as an international coach & is simply clueless with regards to the best course of action that should be required for this team going forward.

Just words alone cannot describe the inadequacy on display here.

How is this level of incompetence acceptable for the NZR?

States the obvious; "we got smacked against England, what have we learnt from that?" and then proceeds to vomit HR twaddle about "freshening an organisation, how we deliver messages, the people that we use to deliver messages, grow our leaders, grow our mental skills, culture, younger group of players coming through from different backgrounds that we need to take into account and figure out how we link and communicate with them."

And some people still wonder why we've seen no development in how we play in over two years? He's not helped by the snivelling shit of an interviewer, but if that was the brief to the NZR selection committee, small wonder the game is in the parlous state it is. From the top down the organisation is being replaced with mediocrity and as they permeate through it becomes harder to identify them.

It all starts at the top, because we have idiots on the NZRU Board we end up with an incompetent coach - even though we won The Rugby Championship you could see the cracks appearing... on the UK tour we lost really badly against Ireland, didn't learn from those obvious mistakes, so lost the same pathetic way against France too.

We are not even doing the basics in the forwards when we have possession, there's a real lack of mongrel/urgency taking the ball up, also we're not getting enough numbers to clean, blowing their players out the way so we can get quicker ball to our backs.

Foster's tactic to use box kicks to counter the rushing defence is pathetic... when the opposition are really slowing your ball down you need to kick, but is has to be smart kicking, like wipers kicks deep towards the sideline or corners, get them scrambling back, because the opposition are standing up so flat with this rugby league type defence there's going to be acres of space behind them.

"It all starts at the top". Is it just me who feels that SuperRugby for all it's intensity in the NZ derbies, no longer prepares teams for an elite international defensive structure?

(There's a great 1014 interview on Youtube with Scott Robertson and Ronan O'Gara where Scott admits that ROG really challenged his own ideas on defense ... just a good example)

Regaining a coaching innovation edge is only part of the problem, I suspect some some structural issues and complacency are underpinning this too

Spot on mate - it's not just a problem with Super Rugby, but in world rugby too.

Heaps of times in games we see a ton of aimless kicking, deep down the middle of the field directly to a player, that's just giving good possession away, also those bloody box kicks are way overdone, need to vary your tactics accurately.

Players tend to grubber kick directly into the legs of an opposition player & don't get the weight on the ball right either, if they had any sense they'd look to guide the ball along the deck between the other sides players.
Really annoys me when dumb intercept tries are given away & silly passes in general are thrown to gift the opposition the ball, also charge downs from kicks - christ, these blokes are meant to be professionals ? ...these things would hardly ever happen if each player bothered to read the game properly & have a quick look for a split second to see if a kick or pass was on or not, clearly if it isn't go to ground & set the ball up.

The joy of watching the ABs has always been that fantasic philosophy that a great attack can outwit a great defense "somehow" ... tactics and skills and speed (fitness can no longer be a point of difference)

Given this, what gets me is that NZ tactical innovation seems to have stalled vs modern defenses ... yet SR is the only experience route to prepare up-and-coming / fringe ABs, so I see it as a structural issue, not just a pure AB-level coaching issue ... how to best use SR teams/coaches to prepare the future ABs (who pay all the bills)
And assume that Sean Edwards-style defenses need to be a new defensive benchmark they'll face more and more, not the exception

@antipodean Yeah, I watched that - not proposing it, just an example of Scott Robertson setting a healthy example of being prepared be challenged on his thinking ... and to import coaching IP/insight where useful

People may disagree but I don't think the step up from "NZ-derby-level" Super Rugby to elite international is just about physicality, NZ derbies are often brutal. It's structural i.e. given how the game has developed, has NZR (really) adapted top-down given that AB brand/success is the golden-goose? Evidence suggests it just hasn't ... recently

Maybe NZR need a more self-critical look at local SR coaching structure and talent given that they control/run/fund SR "top down" to feed AB success ... focus on coaching (innovation/depth/pay(!)/retention/acquisition/international vs local pay differentials).

Set a coaching benchmark to have ABs and fringe-ABs playing against better defensive structures as the "new norm" etc

(1) Far easier said than done and (2) Needs NZR investment - long-term strategy is like that though - this kind of thinking is part of what they are paid for, not just cutting commercial deals and rehiring a continuity coach?

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

Also, I remember a video segment from RNZ where he mentions his desire to quote 'show that he is 'innovative'..

And to be fair to him... being the first AB coach to lose to Argentina, was a ground-breaking achievement for Foz.

I think the worst thing he claimed, and didn't deliver on, was the commitment to physicality in the forwards.

He correctly identified the issue, then failed completely to bring along/select the right players to address the problem

We have played powder puff (copyright Walrus) rugby all year.

Go to 55 seconds, he pretty much addresses this, and even gets pressed further by Campbell about it.

Mortifying to watch now after what's since transpired under Fozzie, he hasn't fulfilled these points to any degree.

Watching this right now it's apparent he's completely & utterly out of his depth as an international coach & is simply clueless with regards to the best course of action that should be required for this team going forward.

Just words alone cannot describe the inadequacy on display here.

How is this level of incompetence acceptable for the NZR?

States the obvious; "we got smacked against England, what have we learnt from that?" and then proceeds to vomit HR twaddle about "freshening an organisation, how we deliver messages, the people that we use to deliver messages, grow our leaders, grow our mental skills, culture, younger group of players coming through from different backgrounds that we need to take into account and figure out how we link and communicate with them."

And some people still wonder why we've seen no development in how we play in over two years? He's not helped by the snivelling shit of an interviewer, but if that was the brief to the NZR selection committee, small wonder the game is in the parlous state it is. From the top down the organisation is being replaced with mediocrity and as they permeate through it becomes harder to identify them.

It all starts at the top, because we have idiots on the NZRU Board we end up with an incompetent coach - even though we won The Rugby Championship you could see the cracks appearing... on the UK tour we lost really badly against Ireland, didn't learn from those obvious mistakes, so lost the same pathetic way against France too.

We are not even doing the basics in the forwards when we have possession, there's a real lack of mongrel/urgency taking the ball up, also we're not getting enough numbers to clean, blowing their players out the way so we can get quicker ball to our backs.

Foster's tactic to use box kicks to counter the rushing defence is pathetic... when the opposition are really slowing your ball down you need to kick, but is has to be smart kicking, like wipers kicks deep towards the sideline or corners, get them scrambling back, because the opposition are standing up so flat with this rugby league type defence there's going to be acres of space behind them.

"It all starts at the top". Is it just me who feels that SuperRugby for all it's intensity in the NZ derbies, no longer prepares teams for an elite international defensive structure?

(There's a great 1014 interview on Youtube with Scott Robertson and Ronan O'Gara where Scott admits that ROG really challenged his own ideas on defense ... just a good example)

Regaining a coaching innovation edge is only part of the problem, I suspect some some structural issues and complacency are underpinning this too