The Silver Fern

Really good first half, although far from perfect. Followed by possibly the most brainless 20 minutes I've ever seen. Then DMac with an elite few minutes, 50-22, amazing finish then brilliant kick for goal. I hope we're getting closer to an 80 minute performance, we'll need close to that next week. Those yellow cards, my goodness. 2 were epic brain fades and you could even argue that Ardie's was extremely dumb, if he actually had any control in that position. I wonder if they practice defensive mauls that are going backwards - practice letting them score without giving away a penalty try + card, when a try is inevitable. Adding the yellow on top of conceding is catastrophic and was almost fatal to our chances.

@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

@Richie8-7 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

@Richie8-7 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

@No-Quarter said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

@reprobate I am TRYING to be positive here!!

To try to counter that point, I think the impact of their forwards tiring is less in the modern game given you can replace so much of your pack in the 2nd 40. If we'd built a lead during that period you could say that it had a big impact, but as it stands it was them that went ahead, so I don't think the impact of that card was as bad as it could have been for Ireland.

Yeah sorry to bring you down bro.
It's less impactful, but I think it's still a pretty big deal: 20 minutes with 14 you may do well to limit the damage, but still have the fatigue from that effort affect you late in the game.
Think I'm right in saying that Beirne is one of their 80 minute guys too? (and he's certainly a workhorse).

We had 20 minutes with 14 in 2023 against a much better Irish side and still won.

Not sure that's a great example. We started really well, and had to make a mountain of tackles and hang on for grim death late in the game to scrape the win because of those cards. Sam Whitelock with the turnover after 30+ phases, and I think Jordie also held someone up over the line? Replay that game 100 x and I think most times we lose it because of the cards.

So an example of a match where a team won is not a good example of a team winning with 14 players for 20 minutes? Good lord. Ireland didn't just lose on Sunday, they got hammered 4 tries to 1 and the final score flattered them.

Ireland also should have had a yellow card in 2023 for a high tackle that was never reviewed after we kicked a 50-22. And in that last play there were 2 forward passes, neck roll on Ioane and a clear penalty won by Ardie. So not only did we win with 14 players for 20 mins, we won against the tide of terrible decisions.

It can be done, and obviously happens sometimes - but, "good lord", that doesn't mean the card doesn't matter.
We took the lead in about the 60th minute. They were poor, sure. But if we aren't in front for 3/4 of the game, I don't really think it's a hammering.

The card does matter of course, which is why you shouldn't make a no arms tackle with a shoulder to the head. I was saying it is still possible to win.

And yes, it is a hammering. It's an 80 minute game, not 60. 33-13 would have been a fair reflection. If the score at 60 minutes had any relevance there wouldn't be so much angst about the Springboks match in Wellington.

@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

@Richie8-7 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

@No-Quarter said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

@reprobate I am TRYING to be positive here!!

To try to counter that point, I think the impact of their forwards tiring is less in the modern game given you can replace so much of your pack in the 2nd 40. If we'd built a lead during that period you could say that it had a big impact, but as it stands it was them that went ahead, so I don't think the impact of that card was as bad as it could have been for Ireland.

Yeah sorry to bring you down bro.
It's less impactful, but I think it's still a pretty big deal: 20 minutes with 14 you may do well to limit the damage, but still have the fatigue from that effort affect you late in the game.
Think I'm right in saying that Beirne is one of their 80 minute guys too? (and he's certainly a workhorse).

We had 20 minutes with 14 in 2023 against a much better Irish side and still won.

Not sure that's a great example. We started really well, and had to make a mountain of tackles and hang on for grim death late in the game to scrape the win because of those cards. Sam Whitelock with the turnover after 30+ phases, and I think Jordie also held someone up over the line? Replay that game 100 x and I think most times we lose it because of the cards.

So an example of a match where a team won is not a good example of a team winning with 14 players for 20 minutes? Good lord. Ireland didn't just lose on Sunday, they got hammered 4 tries to 1 and the final score flattered them.

Ireland also should have had a yellow card in 2023 for a high tackle that was never reviewed after we kicked a 50-22. And in that last play there were 2 forward passes, neck roll on Ioane and a clear penalty won by Ardie. So not only did we win with 14 players for 20 mins, we won against the tide of terrible decisions.

@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

@No-Quarter said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

@reprobate I am TRYING to be positive here!!

To try to counter that point, I think the impact of their forwards tiring is less in the modern game given you can replace so much of your pack in the 2nd 40. If we'd built a lead during that period you could say that it had a big impact, but as it stands it was them that went ahead, so I don't think the impact of that card was as bad as it could have been for Ireland.

Yeah sorry to bring you down bro.
It's less impactful, but I think it's still a pretty big deal: 20 minutes with 14 you may do well to limit the damage, but still have the fatigue from that effort affect you late in the game.
Think I'm right in saying that Beirne is one of their 80 minute guys too? (and he's certainly a workhorse).

We had 20 minutes with 14 in 2023 against a much better Irish side and still won.

@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

On the red card: I think it was very much the unexpected pass that caused the contact to go that way - and that it was unexpected because BB had already over-run Roigard, hence the forward pass query.
If Beauden didn't have to catch at ball he wasn't expecting right at the line, he would have braced for impact too and it would have been the standard thing that happens all game every game. Just very unlucky.
I find it hard to believe that Beirne is going to deliberately shoulder charge someone in the head from a completely upright position while making zero attempt to tackle, because if he did that on a regular basis, he'd be getting red carded in every game, would be renowned as a thug, and wouldn't be picked because his actions would lose games.
The consistency/inconsistency in rulings is a completely different issue, but that sort of incident being a red card I think is bad for the game. As BB himself said, at least it was only 20 minutes.

I don't think it was deliberate either. It was reckless though, and easily warranted a red card by the current rules and recent interpretations

@Chuck72 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

@Richie8-7 springboks in auckland was good
But seems like some think we only win when the opposition play bad so that game probably doesn't count either

And even if we beat a good team like the Springboks, "we only won by 7". I don't think they're as great as we're cracking them up to be either. We were a good referee and a bad D Mac miss away from beating them 2-0 away last year. I guess we'll find out next year.

We've unearthed some decent players and in 2 years, we should be firing*

*I'm well aware we won't accept losses in the meantime

@brodean said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

@Richie8-7

Beating the Springboks was a good win. They're easily the best side in the world at the moment and they've had our number over the last two years.

We beat them fair and square. They wanted to break that Eden Park record and would have been up for that game.

After 2 decades of owning the Wallabies and the Bledisloe you'll excuse me if Im not pumped about another couple of wins against the Wallabies.

Slightly better Wallabies team than the last few years. I thought beating them in Australia would be tough, had that at 50-50 at best

@brodean said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

@Mauss said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

@Tim said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

Rewatched the 1st half. We really get very little out of our loose forwards. Despite being a man up for 20 mins, they were hardly hitting rucks. Let alone making aggressive tackles. It looks like Tupaea, Faingaʻanuku, and even Clarke had better breakdown technique. Savea is absolutely not a 7.

The Savea-at-openside discussion is interesting. To be honest, I don’t think it makes a whole lot of difference what number Savea is wearing on his back, he pretty much plays his game whether he’s wearing 7 or 8 (or 6 or 12...). If you’d look at the table here, who’d you reckon the openside would be and who’d be the 8?

Guess the player: carries, post-contact metres, tackles completed, attacking rucks attended, defensive rucks attended and turnovers won

Player B has all the hallmarks of your classic number 8: double figures in carries and tackles, significant post-contact metres and multiple defenders beaten. Player A, on the other hand, fits more the profile of an openside: more rucks attended than carries, with less impact made per carry.

In case you’re still wondering: these are the numbers of Savea and Lakai against the Irish in Chicago, with Savea being player B and Lakai being player A. So while Savea is ‘technically’ wearing the openside-jersey, he is very much playing like a 7/8-hybrid right now (his 17 rucks attended and 2 pilfers being a solid contribution at the breakdown, as well).

And let me get ahead of critiques of Lakai’s “low numbers”: Lakai was effectively acting as the defensive ‘key’ throughout the game, connecting the ruck defence with the defensive line as third defender out from the ruck, shutting down opposition backline moves (his charge down of Gibson-Park is a good example of this, as defensive work that doesn’t show up on the stat sheet). As a result, he was continuously all over the pitch, making reads and shutting down potential gaps in the line. It’s typically one of the roles given to a mobile openside.

So why the numbers?
So why not just put Lakai in the openside-jersey and Savea in the number 8? This is just my own speculation but if I were to hazard a guess, it’s an attempt at turning both Savea and Lakai into more complete players. The ABs are trying to implement a very fluid structure, where everyone can fill into another’s role, whether it’s as a cleaner, as a carrier or as a playmaker (the Savea-try, with de Groot and Lord in the attacking line being a good example of this).

Savea, if put at 8, does have a tendency to abandon some of his other responsibilities. By putting him at openside, you could argue that he’s forced to play closer to the breakdown, balancing out his natural tendency to drift to the edge.

Funnily enough, Lakai has the opposite tendency: when playing at openside, the Hurricanes loose forward can become too focused on his support role, foregoing his own carrying ability. He's often been rather anonymous when playing at 7 for the Hurricanes, unable to complement his openside-role with his excellent carrying ability. By putting him at 8, he’s being forced to balance the two (Sidenote: Papali’i has a similar issue, where he can find it difficult to involve himself beyond the team's structures; his low contribution of 3 carries for the AB XV against the Barbarians would be another example of this).

Those are just my own observations and speculations on why Savea and Lakai are wearing their current jersey numbers, I could be totally off. But it (kind of) makes sense to me. Either way, in reality, Savea is certainly fulfilling the role of a number 8.

And finally, the loose forwards as a whole
I’ll agree that the AB loose forward-mix is a work in progress but I don’t agree with this idea that they’re consistently being outplayed. Against Ireland, the AB loose forward group thoroughly outplayed their counterparts on attack, carrying more, making more metres, beating more defenders, and winning the turnover battle.

Irish and AB loose forward involvements: carries, post-contact metres, defenders beaten, offloads, turnovers won/lost, tackles completed/missed, and dominant tackling

It is only on the defensive side that the Irish loose forwards were more involved, putting in double the tackles while only missing two. But that is also the result of the Irish inability to win the possession-battle, especially in the 2nd half. They were unable to force the ABs into turnovers, allowing the latter to build rucks and pressure in their own half.

This ties in with another often-heard claim about the AB loose forwards losing the breakdown battle. Throughout the Rugby Championship and now this Test against Ireland, the ABs have typically come out on top when it comes to turnovers won (+1.3 on average), lost (-3.3 on average) and rucks lost (-0.6).

Possession and breakdown stats: turnovers won, turnovers lost, rucks won, and rucks lost

That means that the ABs win the ball more often, lose it less than their opponents and lose less rucks than their opponents on average.

By far the biggest stumbling block throughout the Rugby Championship is that the ABs have not built enough rucks to accumulate pressure on their opponents. They’ve averaged around 10 rucks less formed than their opponents, which has given them insufficient opportunities to score. That means that they’ve kicked away too much possession that they haven’t been able to regather. This doesn't mean that the ABs have to kick less; it simply means that they have to kick better.

The balance was better against the Irish, with 23 more rucks formed than their opponent. The ball-carrying and -retention from the bench is a huge factor in this regard as well, with Sititi (8 carries, 45 post-contact metres), Taukei’aho (3 carries, 14 post-contact metres) and McKenzie (8 passes, no kicks) providing lots of impetus in this regard. It’s a template that Robertson will want to expand on during the tour. But that means keeping the scores close for the first 60 minutes, before overwhelming your opponent in the final quarter through set piece- and carrying-dominance.

The loose forward-duo of Savea and Lakai - with their breakdown disruption (8 defensive rucks attended) and defensive mobility (18 tackles with zero misses) - seem set to continue in this regard.

Lakai and Parker combined to complete 12 tackles. Newell made 11. Taylor made 15. Our loose forwards failed to show up defensively in that record Bok loss.

This is a weak Irish side that got a red card. Theres not much to read into this game.

We weren't winning the ruck speed in the RC until the games against a spent Wallabies side.

Weak Irish and spent Wallabies teams.

Out of interest, have we had a good win this year?

@Victor-Meldrew said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

@Richie8-7 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

yes, it was horrific. And pretty shocking how badly they threw in the towel. I don't think we're as bad as that result though

Horrific is an understatement.

I've been watching since '71 and never, ever seen an AB team simply give up like that. It was the worst AB performance I've ever seen by some margin. And the worrying thing is too many people simply shrugged their shoulders.

My thoughts after that match was that a loss at Eden Park to Australia is the last straw for Razor. Like losing a series at home against Ireland should have been it for Foster (although based on the Irish reaction on social media in the last 48 hours, we could claim to be robbed by a red card in the Dunedin test). Since Wellington we've beaten Australia and Ireland away (Chicago is away as far as I'm concerned). If we win a grand slam, then he'll have appeared to have corrected course. If we lose to England, he's still in purgatory. If we lose to England and Scotland and/or Wales, then we need to throw a bag full of cash and a dozen hookers at Schmidt.

@booboo said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

@ACT-Crusader said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

@frugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

@ACT-Crusader said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

@frugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

Went under the radar, but Ratima got about three minutes. I get they rate Roigard, but the All Blacks aren't in a great place when a halfback has to go 77 minutes when, what is in theory our #2 halfback is on the bench.

And how many minutes did Aaron Smith average during that purple patch of AB rugby….

Pre 2015, roughly 70,
2016-2017, roughly 65
2018-2023, roughly 60

And in that 2013 test vs Ireland he played all 85 minutes!

That 2023 match against Ireland he played the whole game too ...

Only played 70 mins

@No-Quarter yes, it was horrific. And pretty shocking how badly they threw in the towel. I don't think we're as bad as that result though. At 7-0, we were a decent pass away from 14-0 and it's a different match.

Anyway, not saying we're playing well. Just saying some "supporters" have lost the plot.

@No-Quarter said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

@nostrildamus said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

@No-Quarter said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

Gotta love people coming in after the fact and acting like they knew we'd win

who said that?

@Richie8-7 has a habit of making an appearance when the ABs win to stick the boot into anyone critical of the coaches, while being strangely absent for games like the the drubbing we got from SA at home, and also being completely absent from posting live during the game when we are not playing well.

When did I say anything about people being critical of the coaches? I clearly stated that the team is far from great. I specifically criticised comments like "worst team in 50 years" and those wanting every player and coach sacked? Then what?

@nzzp said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

@Richie8-7 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

worst All Black team in 50 years

don't extrapolate from the specific to teh general.

Most people thought we'd win - we were $1.40 favourites at the TAB. But we played poorly and have for a while. Still waiting for a statement performance ... fingers crossed we smoke England on their turf

That's not an extrapolation, it's an exact quote.

And on your second comment, agree 100%

@sparky said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

@Richie8-7 See you in the next match thread, everyone's most welcome to contribute!

During the match I'm usually watching the match.

I didn't know we'd win for the first 60 and found it pretty frustrating. This team is a long way off where we need to be and expect to be as All Blacks fans. But "worst All Black team in 50 years" in the first half of a match we won by 13 (and could easily have won by 20), away from home against a supposedly top tier team seems slightly ridiculous. That's 2 in a row now where we've played well for maybe 20 minutes and ended up winning comfortably away from home against decent teams. Great All Black team? A long way off. But worst ever? I don't think so.

@sparky said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

I'm falling asleep. So I'm bailing.

Enjoy the rest of the Test, if you can.

@Jet said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

We are going to lose this match.

Cool story

@sparky said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

Worst All Blacks team of the last 50 years?

Certainly the least entertaining and likeable that I can remember.

This forum really is a crack up. Worst team in 50 years, before even seeing how they went in the second half. Sums up this thread (and every match thread)

@African-Monkey Fair. Maybe reading it after the event made it worse. I certainly was criticising a lot in the first 20 minutes but also really impressed that we weren't 10-15 points down. There were some great saves.

@stodders Plus they let it run for 60-90 seconds sometimes but the clock doesn't go back

Read back the thread from during the match. I guess this is where the always unhappy, complain about everything, bitter old bastards who used to call Radio Sport hang out these days? What an embarrassment to read.