All Blacks 2024
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@SammyC big welcome back, and thanks for those insights, that does help explain the absolutely inexplicable omission of Sotutu which is just so unprofessional (being nice there). Also helps to explain Akira taking the money in Japan, it's a credit to Sotutu that he has hung around TBH. NZR is turning into a mickey mouse organisation (well more so than usual).
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
Which was that many people would have been happy with 10-4 (or even 8-6) if there was evidence of a new, fresh approach, more on-field smarts and player development.
A slight exaggeration on my part for entertainment purposes.
But, I entirely disagree with your statement.
There would be very few people who would be remotely forgiving of 8-6 no matter who had been selected.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
There would be very few people who would be remotely forgiving of 8-6 no matter who had been selected.
My point was it could easily have been 8-6 - that was how badly they played for much of the year.
And if we continue to play like that, and with the current approach, there'll be even more losses
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Long time listener, first time caller
This season hasn’t surprised me at all, I’ve been a part of the local rugby scene in Chch for a number of years….. and have had a few dealings with both Razor and Jase Ryan.
Razor has no interest in building depth past the next world cup, he’s all about his own legacy and wants to win the world cup with NZ and then go and win it with England or someone else. Becoming the first coach to win it with 2 different countries.
Rightly or wrongly, he thinks picking all the old blokes is the way to do it.
Jason Ryan is a bit of a prick and hates Hoskins Sotutu.
Jason is very good at holding grudges. There’s a number of people around the traps down here that have been cut off by for disagreeing with him (or just not giving him the accolades he thinks he deserves).Despite the above, I am still glad we have these guys and not Foster.
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@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
But why on earth would Ryan hate Sotutu?
Sotutu and Ryan were both part of the ABs in 2022. I guess that's where Ryan developed his dislike for Sotutu?
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@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
But why on earth would Ryan hate Sotutu?
Ryan probably told Sotutu how to carry the ball and was ignored.
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Long time listener, first time caller
This season hasn’t surprised me at all, I’ve been a part of the local rugby scene in Chch for a number of years….. and have had a few dealings with both Razor and Jase Ryan.
Razor has no interest in building depth past the next world cup, he’s all about his own legacy and wants to win the world cup with NZ and then go and win it with England or someone else. Becoming the first coach to win it with 2 different countries.
Rightly or wrongly, he thinks picking all the old blokes is the way to do it.
Jason Ryan is a bit of a prick and hates Hoskins Sotutu.
Jason is very good at holding grudges. There’s a number of people around the traps down here that have been cut off by for disagreeing with him (or just not giving him the accolades he thinks he deserves).Despite the above, I am still glad we have these guys and not Foster.
@SammyC said in All Blacks 2024:
Long time listener, first time caller
This season hasn’t surprised me at all, I’ve been a part of the local rugby scene in Chch for a number of years….. and have had a few dealings with both Razor and Jase Ryan.
Razor has no interest in building depth past the next world cup, he’s all about his own legacy and wants to win the world cup with NZ and then go and win it with England or someone else. Becoming the first coach to win it with 2 different countries.
Rightly or wrongly, he thinks picking all the old blokes is the way to do it.
Jason Ryan is a bit of a prick and hates Hoskins Sotutu.
Jason is very good at holding grudges. There’s a number of people around the traps down here that have been cut off by for disagreeing with him (or just not giving him the accolades he thinks he deserves).Despite the above, I am still glad we have these guys and not Foster.
Really intereesting scuttlebutt Sammy.
On Jason Ryan, well, the forward pack is VASTLY improved under him.
Perhaps you have to be a bit of a prick to drive that improvement.The average age of our players is significantly less than the Boks.
Rassie is attempting to build depth, but just how many of those coming through will be top level test players is hard to gauge. Especially when the more experienced heads depart.
(Bongi 34, Steph De Toit 32, Kwagga Smith 31, Etzebeth 33, Kolisi 33, Mostert 34, De Allende 33, Kolbe 31, Le Roux 35, Kriel 30, Am 31, Mapimpi 34)
https://all.rugby/club/south-africa/squad
In fact , if you look at the squad, there are very few young ones in there at all. -
@SammyC said in All Blacks 2024:
Long time listener, first time caller
This season hasn’t surprised me at all, I’ve been a part of the local rugby scene in Chch for a number of years….. and have had a few dealings with both Razor and Jase Ryan.
Razor has no interest in building depth past the next world cup, he’s all about his own legacy and wants to win the world cup with NZ and then go and win it with England or someone else. Becoming the first coach to win it with 2 different countries.
Rightly or wrongly, he thinks picking all the old blokes is the way to do it.
Jason Ryan is a bit of a prick and hates Hoskins Sotutu.
Jason is very good at holding grudges. There’s a number of people around the traps down here that have been cut off by for disagreeing with him (or just not giving him the accolades he thinks he deserves).Despite the above, I am still glad we have these guys and not Foster.
Really intereesting scuttlebutt Sammy.
On Jason Ryan, well, the forward pack is VASTLY improved under him.
Perhaps you have to be a bit of a prick to drive that improvement.The average age of our players is significantly less than the Boks.
Rassie is attempting to build depth, but just how many of those coming through will be top level test players is hard to gauge. Especially when the more experienced heads depart.
(Bongi 34, Steph De Toit 32, Kwagga Smith 31, Etzebeth 33, Kolisi 33, Mostert 34, De Allende 33, Kolbe 31, Le Roux 35, Kriel 30, Am 31, Mapimpi 34)
https://all.rugby/club/south-africa/squad
In fact , if you look at the squad, there are very few young ones in there at all. -
@Frank didn't he use more players though? Which could imply it's experience at the next level down that counts...
@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
@Frank didn't he use more players though? Which could imply it's experience at the next level down that counts...
Which of the new players he has introduced are going to be at the same level as the more experienced heads in front of them?
I really don't know enough about their team to say.
Their 10 is certainly an upgrade.
Has he found another lock anywhere near as good as Etzebeth - no
Flankers as good as Steph De Toit, Kwagga Smith of Kolisi - noOther positions I am not sure.
What it looks to me is that while he has introduced players, the key point of whether they be as good as the predecessors is largely unknown. (and could be unlikely)
I think there may be significant step downs coming (hoping - haha)
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@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
@Frank didn't he use more players though? Which could imply it's experience at the next level down that counts...
Which of the new players he has introduced are going to be at the same level as the more experienced heads in front of them?
I really don't know enough about their team to say.
Their 10 is certainly an upgrade.
Has he found another lock anywhere near as good as Etzebeth - no
Flankers as good as Steph De Toit, Kwagga Smith of Kolisi - noOther positions I am not sure.
What it looks to me is that while he has introduced players, the key point of whether they be as good as the predecessors is largely unknown. (and could be unlikely)
I think there may be significant step downs coming (hoping - haha)
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@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
After winning vs Oz, Oz, Japan, England and Ireland, the nay-sayers had somewhat quietened and there were even - god help us - a few vaguely positive comments. People "could see where Razor's taking the team".
So, the nay sayers should have been quietened by two wins, one very shaky, over a poor Wallabies side, a walkover against Japan, yet another close call versus a very limited Pomgolia and a decent showing up against an Ireland who are clearly in decline?
I'm stating that as a fact. If you look at the Ireland thread after the match and the France thread pre-match, there was actually - for once - a small degree of positivity.
As soon as we lost to France, that evaporated.
Ok, this feels like bait, but I’ll play.
These types of selections may be entirely forgivable, if we won. But we didn’t.
I don't know why you think it's bait, because you're at least partially agreeing with me.
I'm saying that if you win everything is forgiven - except a lack of style.
Victor reckons Razor can lose and people would be happy with that if he'd picked the Baby Blacks.
I reckon if he loses nothing is forgiven.
Not just Razor - every All Black coach. Remeber Sir Ted wondering if he'd be able to live in NZ if they'd lost the 2011 final.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
After winning vs Oz, Oz, Japan, England and Ireland, the nay-sayers had somewhat quietened and there were even - god help us - a few vaguely positive comments. People "could see where Razor's taking the team".
So, the nay sayers should have been quietened by two wins, one very shaky, over a poor Wallabies side, a walkover against Japan, yet another close call versus a very limited Pomgolia and a decent showing up against an Ireland who are clearly in decline?
I'm stating that as a fact. If you look at the Ireland thread after the match and the France thread pre-match, there was actually - for once - a small degree of positivity.
As soon as we lost to France, that evaporated.
Ok, this feels like bait, but I’ll play.
These types of selections may be entirely forgivable, if we won. But we didn’t.
I don't know why you think it's bait, because you're at least partially agreeing with me.
I'm saying that if you win everything is forgiven - except a lack of style.
Victor reckons Razor can lose and people would be happy with that if he'd picked the Baby Blacks.
I reckon if he loses nothing is forgiven.
Not just Razor - every All Black coach. Remeber Sir Ted wondering if he'd be able to live in NZ if they'd lost the 2011 final.
The expectations of the NZ rugby public have been tempered by the results of the last few years....
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@SammyC said in All Blacks 2024:
Long time listener, first time caller
This season hasn’t surprised me at all, I’ve been a part of the local rugby scene in Chch for a number of years….. and have had a few dealings with both Razor and Jase Ryan.
Razor has no interest in building depth past the next world cup, he’s all about his own legacy and wants to win the world cup with NZ and then go and win it with England or someone else. Becoming the first coach to win it with 2 different countries.
Rightly or wrongly, he thinks picking all the old blokes is the way to do it.
Jason Ryan is a bit of a prick and hates Hoskins Sotutu.
Jason is very good at holding grudges. There’s a number of people around the traps down here that have been cut off by for disagreeing with him (or just not giving him the accolades he thinks he deserves).Despite the above, I am still glad we have these guys and not Foster.
Really intereesting scuttlebutt Sammy.
On Jason Ryan, well, the forward pack is VASTLY improved under him.
Perhaps you have to be a bit of a prick to drive that improvement.The average age of our players is significantly less than the Boks.
Rassie is attempting to build depth, but just how many of those coming through will be top level test players is hard to gauge. Especially when the more experienced heads depart.
(Bongi 34, Steph De Toit 32, Kwagga Smith 31, Etzebeth 33, Kolisi 33, Mostert 34, De Allende 33, Kolbe 31, Le Roux 35, Kriel 30, Am 31, Mapimpi 34)
https://all.rugby/club/south-africa/squad
In fact , if you look at the squad, there are very few young ones in there at all.@Frank squad renewal is hard. Especially when you’re trying to replace proven Champions.
Still, I’m only worried about three players:
Bongi
Malherbe
EbenAnd even then I’m not so worried about them as about their positions:
- Just aren’t that many right-sized humans with the right mentality for them: and
- it takes serious time and care to mature those few into greats in those positions.
Bongi and Malherbe were both shit when they first made the bok team. I used to wonder how stellar they must ‘ve been around a braai to keep getting selected. Took at least 3/4 years before I started to see what successive Bok selectors had seen.
Even Eben who was an obvious monster took a few seasons to get to Bok standard and a few more before I believed he was reaching Bakkies’ levels. And before that I used to worry that Bakkies wasn’t a solid replacement for Krynauw Otto who I thought was a poor man’s Wiese.
So Rassie better hurry up and find the next Eben, it would be shit to get into the situation you’ve had to suffer through replacing Brodie. Where you know the guy in the squad isn’t really up to snuff, but he’s sucking up caps and next thing you know he’s your captain.
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Can anyone explain the amazing balance Robertson describes with Cane, Sititi and Savea?
I thought Kaino, Read and McCaw were balanced and this new trio is nothing like that.
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Can anyone explain the amazing balance Robertson describes with Cane, Sititi and Savea?
I thought Kaino, Read and McCaw were balanced and this new trio is nothing like that.
Balanced? They were arguably the greatest loosforward trio to play the game. Not sure we have that cattle now ... regardless of "balance".
Unfair comparison.
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@Machpants said in All Blacks 2024:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2024:
It's more his intransigence and apparent lack of coaching nous that concerns me.
That is what has really surprised me.
Always thought he'd struggle initially (despite his fluffers claiming there was no difference in SR Test coaching) and take a few Tests to come right, but the continuing inconsistency and lack of player development together with his hankering for mediocre overseas players - at the end of the season - has been really unexpected.
His reputation for being a players' coach, and an innovator have not been apparent. Yet. Watched Scott Hansen on Aotearoa Rugby Pod last night. Boy he spouts some shit when you actually listen. It's all layers, and shit
I hope that off-season he or someone at NZR takes a good long look at things to see what the real problems are, Someone experienced and from outside like Cotter would provide some good honest input and support.
Another year like this one would be a real waste
This is key, he hasn't grown the squad, but also hasn't won enough with the experience he kept - worst of both worlds
NZH year review article
10-4 could easily have been 8-6. Livable-with if he'd been clearly developing new players. But he hasn't.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
10-4 could easily have been 8-6.
But it wasn't.
Could easily have been 14-0. But it wasn't.
The latter would have had us dancing in the street, and not questioning anything. Not that 4 losses is a good thing, but that record will keep him honest and not resting on laurels.
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@ARHS said in All Blacks 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
After winning vs Oz, Oz, Japan, England and Ireland, the nay-sayers had somewhat quietened and there were even - god help us - a few vaguely positive comments. People "could see where Razor's taking the team".
So, the nay sayers should have been quietened by two wins, one very shaky, over a poor Wallabies side, a walkover against Japan, yet another close call versus a very limited Pomgolia and a decent showing up against an Ireland who are clearly in decline?
I'm stating that as a fact. If you look at the Ireland thread after the match and the France thread pre-match, there was actually - for once - a small degree of positivity.
As soon as we lost to France, that evaporated.
Ok, this feels like bait, but I’ll play.
These types of selections may be entirely forgivable, if we won. But we didn’t.
I don't know why you think it's bait, because you're at least partially agreeing with me.
I'm saying that if you win everything is forgiven - except a lack of style.
Victor reckons Razor can lose and people would be happy with that if he'd picked the Baby Blacks.
I reckon if he loses nothing is forgiven.
Not just Razor - every All Black coach. Remeber Sir Ted wondering if he'd be able to live in NZ if they'd lost the 2011 final.
Geez, you come across as a Razor apologist. I don't mind if we lose against the best, provided we are moving towards a good strategic plan.
What I am disappointed with this year is what I see as an overall lack of intelligence in so many things around the AB's. Every turn it seems like gut reactions taking things back to tried and true. Against Italy it felt like watching the Crusaders, grinding out an ugly win.I think we, the fans, have largely driven this by demanding that the ABs never lose. Look at what happened to Fozzie after his run of half a dozen losses. Hansen losing to Ireland for the first time. Hart's horse. Every RWC elimination - except maybe Laurie, but he had Suzy to blame.
There's a very clear message sent to the AB coaches - don't lose!!!
The point I'm making to Victor.
Edit: @mariner4life Snap!
Sorry that my effort to inject a little bit of positivity into the discussion just makes me a Razor apologist. I'll try to be more dismally negative in the future so as not to not to disrupt the wake!
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
Every RWC elimination - except maybe Laurie, but he had Suzy to blame.
And low expectations
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
After winning vs Oz, Oz, Japan, England and Ireland, the nay-sayers had somewhat quietened and there were even - god help us - a few vaguely positive comments. People "could see where Razor's taking the team".
So, the nay sayers should have been quietened by two wins, one very shaky, over a poor Wallabies side, a walkover against Japan, yet another close call versus a very limited Pomgolia and a decent showing up against an Ireland who are clearly in decline?
I'm stating that as a fact. If you look at the Ireland thread after the match and the France thread pre-match, there was actually - for once - a small degree of positivity.
As soon as we lost to France, that evaporated.
Ok, this feels like bait, but I’ll play.
These types of selections may be entirely forgivable, if we won. But we didn’t.
I don't know why you think it's bait, because you're at least partially agreeing with me.
I'm saying that if you win everything is forgiven - except a lack of style.
Victor reckons Razor can lose and people would be happy with that if he'd picked the Baby Blacks.
I reckon if he loses nothing is forgiven.
Not just Razor - every All Black coach. Remeber Sir Ted wondering if he'd be able to live in NZ if they'd lost the 2011 final.
Geez, you come across as a Razor apologist. I don't mind if we lose against the best, provided we are moving towards a good strategic plan.
What I am disappointed with this year is what I see as an overall lack of intelligence in so many things around the AB's. Every turn it seems like gut reactions taking things back to tried and true. Against Italy it felt like watching the Crusaders, grinding out an ugly win.
What I would like to see is the innovative moves, strategies and player management that Razor supporters said would be a given. NZRU giving a 4 year contract looks pretty dumb to me currently. It all smacks of a lack of strategic plan and just running with what came naturally, or what deals with social media opinion.
I dont mind us losing sometimes if we develop a national style that fits with our ethos to run the ball wide as per schools, npc and super rugby. It invokes passion in players and supporters. And we will have plenty of skilled players developing to play that way. But having your two key AB plays as scrumming for penalties and having your quickest player looking to just crash into opponents instead of running into space or looking to set up others, does my head in.
I do worry that NZ Rugby is losing its soul and ethos, initially with Silver Lake and secondly with how this latest regime seems to be doing anything for short term results and image.
NRL and cricket look a bit more appealing currently. -
If you want to make a comparison between the ABs and the Boks, if you don't confront the reality of four consecutive losses then you're wasting everyone's time.
@Tim although 2 of those were not in 2024...
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Can anyone explain the amazing balance Robertson describes with Cane, Sititi and Savea?
I thought Kaino, Read and McCaw were balanced and this new trio is nothing like that.
Balanced? They were arguably the greatest loosforward trio to play the game. Not sure we have that cattle now ... regardless of "balance".
Unfair comparison.
@booboo said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Can anyone explain the amazing balance Robertson describes with Cane, Sititi and Savea?
I thought Kaino, Read and McCaw were balanced and this new trio is nothing like that.
Balanced? They were arguably the greatest loosforward trio to play the game. Not sure we have that cattle now ... regardless of "balance".
Unfair comparison.
A better comparison might be the aussies trying to play 2 x 7s and it being shit, even though both their 7s were better players than their other loose forward options.
The initial comparison might be unfair due to player quality, but it's still a fair point re balance. And it's even worse if you look at the whole squad and add DP, LJ, EB, CLW, PL. Basically everyone except Finau is smaller than both Kaino and Read, and none of them are McCaw. -
@booboo said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Can anyone explain the amazing balance Robertson describes with Cane, Sititi and Savea?
I thought Kaino, Read and McCaw were balanced and this new trio is nothing like that.
Balanced? They were arguably the greatest loosforward trio to play the game. Not sure we have that cattle now ... regardless of "balance".
Unfair comparison.
A better comparison might be the aussies trying to play 2 x 7s and it being shit, even though both their 7s were better players than their other loose forward options.
The initial comparison might be unfair due to player quality, but it's still a fair point re balance. And it's even worse if you look at the whole squad and add DP, LJ, EB, CLW, PL. Basically everyone except Finau is smaller than both Kaino and Read, and none of them are McCaw.DP is taller and heavier than Read, heavier than Kaino, Sititi is 3kg heavier than Kaino, heavier than Read, Blackadder is the same height and weight as Kaino. Lakai is 110kg the same weight as Kaino.
Savea is really the only outlier, Jacobson and Cane are same weight as McCaw, I don't think you could be further off the mark.
