All Blacks 2025
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
Yes, you are correct - the continued success/Brand of ABs/NZR requires success. Ideally at a world cup level.
Just a thought. The All Blacks built the brand off 92 years of dour amateurism, a bare 70% winning record (I'll check exact numbers later), and being worse than South Africa, compounded by a 24 year gap between World Cups.
A game or two per year in neutral territory is not destroying the brand.
@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
Yes, you are correct - the continued success/Brand of ABs/NZR requires success. Ideally at a world cup level.
Just a thought. The All Blacks built the brand off 92 years of dour amateurism, a bare 70% winning record (I'll check exact numbers later), and being worse than South Africa, compounded by a 24 year gap between World Cups.
A game or two per year in neutral territory is not destroying the brand.
‘The Brand’ needs to do more than the above now because the NZR requirements have changed what they need from it.
Rightly or wrongly, the ABs are the vehicle that drives all profit and revenue opportunities.
The brand is about excellence wrapped in mystique of AB’s and rugby success is increasingly about world cup success. Certainly when you want to be out in the market signing bigger deals to fund all aspects of the game in Nz
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2025:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2025:
@Crazy-Horse i mean...what else are we looking for? strong runner, good if basic distribution (no one is SBW), strong on D and LOVES a pilfer and can even bang the odd 50/22...most importantly he's making solid decisions, runs to his support, works hard to get front foot ball and looks to get outside his man to put outsides in space
not saying hes a 10 in every one of of those facets....but the fact he has them is a bloody good start
Agree he did a lot of that on the weekend and he may turn out to be the champ we are looking for, but has he played more than two Super games at 12? It is still very early days for him.
Like Lam, you want to see these guys back up in a second super season. At the same time, some guys are just ready. Look at Wallace
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2025:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2025:
@Crazy-Horse i mean...what else are we looking for? strong runner, good if basic distribution (no one is SBW), strong on D and LOVES a pilfer and can even bang the odd 50/22...most importantly he's making solid decisions, runs to his support, works hard to get front foot ball and looks to get outside his man to put outsides in space
not saying hes a 10 in every one of of those facets....but the fact he has them is a bloody good start
Agree he did a lot of that on the weekend and he may turn out to be the champ we are looking for, but has he played more than two Super games at 12? It is still very early days for him.
Like Lam, you want to see these guys back up in a second super season. At the same time, some guys are just ready. Look at Wallace
I'd argue that all they should really have to do is perform similar to the incumbent - after all, those that make the ABs then get a helluva lot more coaching, direction and incentive.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
It is crazy to me that every posters biggest concern this year is overly conservative selections. I really thought that was a Fozzie thing and that Razor would shake things up, but all we got was the same old selections with some Crusader bias sprinkled on top, so the worst of all worlds.
I think it was inevitable this would happen in his first year to be fair.
I don’t necessarily think it is unusual that a new coach any sport would favour his trusted old boys when stepping up to the biggest job in the sport, in fact I think it is probably a fair enough natural bias… however in years 2&3 as the natural bias wears off he has to steer away from it, and I expect that it will.
The real telling point will be whether they can move past Blackadder, Havili etc. whilst also picking the likes of say Leroy Carter or Caleb Tangitau if they are in better form than Sevu Reece and Chay Fihaki.
Selections for the NZ XV also need to be way better, because Corey Kellow making that team was a pisstake.
I had little issue with the non-selection of Sotutu, because Sititi proved his worth, but they need to keep selecting positively in the problem positions (6/8, 10, 11,14,15)
The ABs were not a mile off last year, things were way more concerning under Foster after Y1 than Razor after Y1.
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I don’t necessarily think it is unusual that a new coach any sport would favour his trusted old boys when stepping up to the biggest job in the sport, in fact I think it is probably a fair enough natural bias… however in years 2&3 as the natural bias wears off he has to steer away from it, and I expect that it will.
For the 1st half of his first season sure. But your first year is the ideal opportunity to throw a bit of caution to the wind and we saw pretty much the opposite.
Some people will argue it was his 1st year at international level, but Robertson was deliberately chosen to make a complete break from the old, established practice. The inexperience argument just doesn't hold water.
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@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2025:
The problem starts with the starting backline as there is no midfield cover from the wingers, and neither JB or Ioane can play in the other position. So that means ALB makes sense even if he is not an impact sub.
I was sick of the sight of him after 2019.
It’s a terrible indictment of where we are at that he is still in and around the squad.
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2025:
The problem starts with the starting backline as there is no midfield cover from the wingers, and neither JB or Ioane can play in the other position. So that means ALB makes sense even if he is not an impact sub.
I was sick of the sight of him after 2019.
It’s a terrible indictment of where we are at that he is still in and around the squad.
While I agree ALB should have been put out to pasture, he's also been a pretty good servant to the AB's and we're lucky he stuck around. A lot of other players would have gone north for the mega-bucks had they been fucked about by the selectors/coaches as much as he was.
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@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2025:
The problem starts with the starting backline as there is no midfield cover from the wingers, and neither JB or Ioane can play in the other position. So that means ALB makes sense even if he is not an impact sub.
I was sick of the sight of him after 2019.
It’s a terrible indictment of where we are at that he is still in and around the squad.
While I agree ALB should have been put out to pasture, he's also been a pretty good servant to the AB's and we're lucky he stuck around. A lot of other players would have gone north for the mega-bucks had they been fucked about by the selectors/coaches as much as he was.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2025:
The problem starts with the starting backline as there is no midfield cover from the wingers, and neither JB or Ioane can play in the other position. So that means ALB makes sense even if he is not an impact sub.
I was sick of the sight of him after 2019.
It’s a terrible indictment of where we are at that he is still in and around the squad.
While I agree ALB should have been put out to pasture, he's also been a pretty good servant to the AB's and we're lucky he stuck around. A lot of other players would have gone north for the mega-bucks had they been fucked about by the selectors/coaches as much as he was.
That said, he was a total card magnet last year
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2025:
The problem starts with the starting backline as there is no midfield cover from the wingers, and neither JB or Ioane can play in the other position. So that means ALB makes sense even if he is not an impact sub.
I was sick of the sight of him after 2019.
It’s a terrible indictment of where we are at that he is still in and around the squad.
While I agree ALB should have been put out to pasture, he's also been a pretty good servant to the AB's and we're lucky he stuck around. A lot of other players would have gone north for the mega-bucks had they been fucked about by the selectors/coaches as much as he was.
That said, he was a total card magnet last year
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2025:
The problem starts with the starting backline as there is no midfield cover from the wingers, and neither JB or Ioane can play in the other position. So that means ALB makes sense even if he is not an impact sub.
I was sick of the sight of him after 2019.
It’s a terrible indictment of where we are at that he is still in and around the squad.
While I agree ALB should have been put out to pasture, he's also been a pretty good servant to the AB's and we're lucky he stuck around. A lot of other players would have gone north for the mega-bucks had they been fucked about by the selectors/coaches as much as he was.
That said, he was a total card magnet last year
One year too many.
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@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2025:
The problem starts with the starting backline as there is no midfield cover from the wingers, and neither JB or Ioane can play in the other position. So that means ALB makes sense even if he is not an impact sub.
I was sick of the sight of him after 2019.
It’s a terrible indictment of where we are at that he is still in and around the squad.
While I agree ALB should have been put out to pasture, he's also been a pretty good servant to the AB's and we're lucky he stuck around. A lot of other players would have gone north for the mega-bucks had they been fucked about by the selectors/coaches as much as he was.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2025:
The problem starts with the starting backline as there is no midfield cover from the wingers, and neither JB or Ioane can play in the other position. So that means ALB makes sense even if he is not an impact sub.
I was sick of the sight of him after 2019.
It’s a terrible indictment of where we are at that he is still in and around the squad.
While I agree ALB should have been put out to pasture, he's also been a pretty good servant to the AB's and we're lucky he stuck around. A lot of other players would have gone north for the mega-bucks had they been fucked about by the selectors/coaches as much as he was.
It’s the vanilla-ness of it all that he epitomises for me.
As someone alluded to earlier regarding South Africa picking impact players over cover, we have done the opposite. Lads need to play multiple positions coupled with “both sides of the ball” rhetoric.
Your Tavatavanawai’s, Laumapes, Shaun Stevensons, Sotutus of the world don’t seem to get a look in even though their upside in some facets of the game is huge.
Whereas milquetoast players like Havili, Bridge and ALB have been de rigueur in the modern day Allblacks.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2025:
The problem starts with the starting backline as there is no midfield cover from the wingers, and neither JB or Ioane can play in the other position. So that means ALB makes sense even if he is not an impact sub.
I was sick of the sight of him after 2019.
It’s a terrible indictment of where we are at that he is still in and around the squad.
While I agree ALB should have been put out to pasture, he's also been a pretty good servant to the AB's and we're lucky he stuck around. A lot of other players would have gone north for the mega-bucks had they been fucked about by the selectors/coaches as much as he was.
It’s the vanilla-ness of it all that he epitomises for me.
As someone alluded to earlier regarding South Africa picking impact players over cover, we have done the opposite. Lads need to play multiple positions coupled with “both sides of the ball” rhetoric.
Your Tavatavanawai’s, Laumapes, Shaun Stevensons, Sotutus of the world don’t seem to get a look in even though their upside in some facets of the game is huge.
Whereas milquetoast players like Havili, Bridge and ALB have been de rigueur in the modern day Allblacks.
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2025:
The problem starts with the starting backline as there is no midfield cover from the wingers, and neither JB or Ioane can play in the other position. So that means ALB makes sense even if he is not an impact sub.
I was sick of the sight of him after 2019.
It’s a terrible indictment of where we are at that he is still in and around the squad.
While I agree ALB should have been put out to pasture, he's also been a pretty good servant to the AB's and we're lucky he stuck around. A lot of other players would have gone north for the mega-bucks had they been fucked about by the selectors/coaches as much as he was.
It’s the vanilla-ness of it all that he epitomises for me.
As someone alluded to earlier regarding South Africa picking impact players over cover, we have done the opposite. Lads need to play multiple positions coupled with “both sides of the ball” rhetoric.
Your Tavatavanawai’s, Laumapes, Shaun Stevensons, Sotutus of the world don’t seem to get a look in even though their upside in some facets of the game is huge.
Whereas milquetoast players like Havili, Bridge and ALB have been de rigueur in the modern day Allblacks.
When you look back at that 2019 RWC team……
Bridge, Reece, ALB, Goodhue.
Jesus wept.
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Couple of quick comments
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Tavatavanawai. I would have liked him as a bolter on the EOYT. As a winger. Got to show a bit more often to get considered as a midfielder.
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Completely disagree with all you people dissing ALB. Was magnificent on D in 2023. Just awesome off the bench. He's awesome on attack, and has never really dropped in level. Don't see anyone better despite the Canes-tinted glasses for PUJ or Proctor.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
It is crazy to me that every posters biggest concern this year is overly conservative selections. I really thought that was a Fozzie thing and that Razor would shake things up, but all we got was the same old selections with some Crusader bias sprinkled on top, so the worst of all worlds.
I think it was inevitable this would happen in his first year to be fair.
I don’t necessarily think it is unusual that a new coach any sport would favour his trusted old boys when stepping up to the biggest job in the sport, in fact I think it is probably a fair enough natural bias… however in years 2&3 as the natural bias wears off he has to steer away from it, and I expect that it will.
I've seen this reasoning posted a few times and it doesn't really wash with me. We are talking about the All Blacks here, which has to be selected on merit, not who the coach is used to working with, otherwise we end up with sub-standard players that get found out at the top level. If he couldn't work with players outside of the Canterbury region then he shouldn't be coach of the national side.
@No-Quarter You’re missing my point. It’s not unique to Razor, this was an inevitable outcome of selecting a Super Rugby coach.
You are essentially asking people to exclude the human element of selection which is nearly impossible… these things generally always fix themselves over time.
Mike Hesson was a great example of this with the BCs… there was some honking Otago bias with his initial selections, but once he lost that, the team set sail. The same will happen with Razor.
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@No-Quarter You’re missing my point. It’s not unique to Razor, this was an inevitable outcome of selecting a Super Rugby coach.
You are essentially asking people to exclude the human element of selection which is nearly impossible… these things generally always fix themselves over time.
Mike Hesson was a great example of this with the BCs… there was some honking Otago bias with his initial selections, but once he lost that, the team set sail. The same will happen with Razor.
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter You’re missing my point. It’s not unique to Razor, this was an inevitable outcome of selecting a Super Rugby coach.
You are essentially asking people to exclude the human element of selection which is nearly impossible… these things generally always fix themselves over time.
Mike Hesson was a great example of this with the BCs… there was some honking Otago bias with his initial selections, but once he lost that, the team set sail. The same will happen with Razor.
You are not going to convince the conspiracy-driven, full-retard, anti-Razor group on here. I'll join them if the coaching group doesn't progress and learn and remain stagnant like the Foster regime which was frustrating to the extreme until Schmit and Ryan got involved. It took Henry and co some "learnings" but you always saw and learnt with them, and you could see the progression. Let's hope for a progressive 2025!
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter You’re missing my point. It’s not unique to Razor, this was an inevitable outcome of selecting a Super Rugby coach.
You are essentially asking people to exclude the human element of selection which is nearly impossible… these things generally always fix themselves over time.
Mike Hesson was a great example of this with the BCs… there was some honking Otago bias with his initial selections, but once he lost that, the team set sail. The same will happen with Razor.
You are not going to convince the conspiracy-driven, full-retard, anti-Razor group on here. I'll join them if the coaching group doesn't progress and learn and remain stagnant like the Foster regime which was frustrating to the extreme until Schmit and Ryan got involved. It took Henry and co some "learnings" but you always saw and learnt with them, and you could see the progression. Let's hope for a progressive 2025!
@Old-Samurai-Jack those theories aren't without reason when underdone players who've never set the world on fire are selected.
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Couple of quick comments
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Tavatavanawai. I would have liked him as a bolter on the EOYT. As a winger. Got to show a bit more often to get considered as a midfielder.
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Completely disagree with all you people dissing ALB. Was magnificent on D in 2023. Just awesome off the bench. He's awesome on attack, and has never really dropped in level. Don't see anyone better despite the Canes-tinted glasses for PUJ or Proctor.
@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
Couple of quick comments
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Tavatavanawai. I would have liked him as a bolter on the EOYT. As a winger. Got to show a more often to get considered ad a midfielder.
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Completely disagree with all you people dissinfmg ALB. Was magnificent on D in 2023. Just awesome if the bench. He's awesome on attack, and has never really dropped in level. Don't see anyone better despite the Canes-tinted glasses for PUJ or Proctor.
Would France, Ireland, England or South Africa favour ALB over their best centres?
A solid defender granted but your assertion that he is awesome on attack makes me raise an eyebrow.
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@Old-Samurai-Jack those theories aren't without reason when underdone players who've never set the world on fire are selected.
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@Old-Samurai-Jack those theories aren't without reason when underdone players who've never set the world on fire are selected.
Agreed, but a lot of the comments on here give an insight into the writers bias (often provincial) rather than an analysis of the rugby played no matter what happens on the field.
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
Couple of quick comments
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Tavatavanawai. I would have liked him as a bolter on the EOYT. As a winger. Got to show a more often to get considered ad a midfielder.
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Completely disagree with all you people dissinfmg ALB. Was magnificent on D in 2023. Just awesome if the bench. He's awesome on attack, and has never really dropped in level. Don't see anyone better despite the Canes-tinted glasses for PUJ or Proctor.
Would France, Ireland, England or South Africa favour ALB over their best centres?
A solid defender granted but your assertion that he is awesome on attack makes me raise an eyebrow.
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
Would France, Ireland, England or South Africa favour ALB over their best centres?
As we are talking about the best talent available to the AB's, isn't that a bit irrelevant though?
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@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
Would France, Ireland, England or South Africa favour ALB over their best centres?
As we are talking about the best talent available to the AB's, isn't that a bit irrelevant though?
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
Would France, Ireland, England or South Africa favour ALB over their best centres?
As we are talking about the best talent available to the AB's, isn't that a bit irrelevant though?
Also reckon ALB would have a very good chance of making a home nations squad.
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@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks 2025:
@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
Fabian Holland, if fit, is a near certainty to be added to the AB squad.
Barrett, Vaa'i, Lord, Tuipulotu, Holland (and an injured Darry) isn't a bad crop of options.
Yeah add in the front row we have and we'll be competitive with anyone in 2025.
I really hope they use a quick 7.
Bout time also that DMac runs the show from 10 with no interruptions. -
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
I really hope they use a quick 7.
Lakai? Anyone else?
Kirifi is probably quicker.
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@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
Would France, Ireland, England or South Africa favour ALB over their best centres?
As we are talking about the best talent available to the AB's, isn't that a bit irrelevant though?
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
Would France, Ireland, England or South Africa favour ALB over their best centres?
As we are talking about the best talent available to the AB's, isn't that a bit irrelevant though?
My contention is he isn’t the best available.
That’s my point.The other teams seem to select on upside.
How is Thomas Ramos defence?
How is Bundee Aki’s kicking game?
How is Jonathan Dantys distribution?So for all the perceived deficiencies of the aforementioned NZ players , the likes of Stevensons boot and line breaking ability, or Sotutus hand skills or Laumapes block buster runs could have been used instead of ALB and his ilk crabbing around behind the gain line or running in treacle when in space.
And before people talk about some of these players sub par D or workrate or whatever, remember we have been shipping 30 odd points to Argentina at home anyway. with the "safe" incumbents. The good communicators, the safe pairs of hands. The honest toilers.
Maybe a howitzer boot at 15 or a big carry might keep us away from our own end of the field longer and they might not have to tackle or toil as much anyway.
We have been selecting our squads through a lens of anxiety rather than enthusiasm.
How many caps would Wallace have if Blackadder had stayed fit?
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
Would France, Ireland, England or South Africa favour ALB over their best centres?
As we are talking about the best talent available to the AB's, isn't that a bit irrelevant though?
My contention is he isn’t the best available.
That’s my point.The other teams seem to select on upside.
How is Thomas Ramos defence?
How is Bundee Aki’s kicking game?
How is Jonathan Dantys distribution?So for all the perceived deficiencies of the aforementioned NZ players , the likes of Stevensons boot and line breaking ability, or Sotutus hand skills or Laumapes block buster runs could have been used instead of ALB and his ilk crabbing around behind the gain line or running in treacle when in space.
And before people talk about some of these players sub par D or workrate or whatever, remember we have been shipping 30 odd points to Argentina at home anyway. with the "safe" incumbents. The good communicators, the safe pairs of hands. The honest toilers.
Maybe a howitzer boot at 15 or a big carry might keep us away from our own end of the field longer and they might not have to tackle or toil as much anyway.
We have been selecting our squads through a lens of anxiety rather than enthusiasm.
How many caps would Wallace have if Blackadder had stayed fit?
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
Would France, Ireland, England or South Africa favour ALB over their best centres?
As we are talking about the best talent available to the AB's, isn't that a bit irrelevant though?
My contention is he isn’t the best available.
That’s my point.The other teams seem to select on upside.
How is Thomas Ramos defence?
How is Bundee Aki’s kicking game?
How is Jonathan Dantys distribution?So for all the perceived deficiencies of the aforementioned NZ players , the likes of Stevensons boot and line breaking ability, or Sotutus hand skills or Laumapes block buster runs could have been used instead of ALB and his ilk crabbing around behind the gain line or running in treacle when in space.
And before people talk about some of these players sub par D or workrate or whatever, remember we have been shipping 30 odd points to Argentina at home anyway. with the "safe" incumbents. The good communicators, the safe pairs of hands. The honest toilers.
Maybe a howitzer boot at 15 or a big carry might keep us away from our own end of the field longer and they might not have to tackle or toil as much anyway.
We have been selecting our squads through a lens of anxiety rather than enthusiasm.
How many caps would Wallace have if Blackadder had stayed fit?
Understand your point on selection generally, but I'm talking about ALB and 12/13 - where he's been a bench option as he can play both positions. And don't forget here was an injury-curse between 2020-3. And while we can talk "what if" about Laumape for weeks, he left 5 years ago.
