All Blacks 2025
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
It is crazy to me that every posters biggest concern this year is overly conservative selections. I really thought that was a Fozzie thing and that Razor would shake things up, but all we got was the same old selections with some Crusader bias sprinkled on top, so the worst of all worlds.
I think it was inevitable this would happen in his first year to be fair.
I don’t necessarily think it is unusual that a new coach any sport would favour his trusted old boys when stepping up to the biggest job in the sport, in fact I think it is probably a fair enough natural bias… however in years 2&3 as the natural bias wears off he has to steer away from it, and I expect that it will.
I've seen this reasoning posted a few times and it doesn't really wash with me. We are talking about the All Blacks here, which has to be selected on merit, not who the coach is used to working with, otherwise we end up with sub-standard players that get found out at the top level. If he couldn't work with players outside of the Canterbury region then he shouldn't be coach of the national side.
@No-Quarter You’re missing my point. It’s not unique to Razor, this was an inevitable outcome of selecting a Super Rugby coach.
You are essentially asking people to exclude the human element of selection which is nearly impossible… these things generally always fix themselves over time.
Mike Hesson was a great example of this with the BCs… there was some honking Otago bias with his initial selections, but once he lost that, the team set sail. The same will happen with Razor.
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@No-Quarter You’re missing my point. It’s not unique to Razor, this was an inevitable outcome of selecting a Super Rugby coach.
You are essentially asking people to exclude the human element of selection which is nearly impossible… these things generally always fix themselves over time.
Mike Hesson was a great example of this with the BCs… there was some honking Otago bias with his initial selections, but once he lost that, the team set sail. The same will happen with Razor.
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter You’re missing my point. It’s not unique to Razor, this was an inevitable outcome of selecting a Super Rugby coach.
You are essentially asking people to exclude the human element of selection which is nearly impossible… these things generally always fix themselves over time.
Mike Hesson was a great example of this with the BCs… there was some honking Otago bias with his initial selections, but once he lost that, the team set sail. The same will happen with Razor.
You are not going to convince the conspiracy-driven, full-retard, anti-Razor group on here. I'll join them if the coaching group doesn't progress and learn and remain stagnant like the Foster regime which was frustrating to the extreme until Schmit and Ryan got involved. It took Henry and co some "learnings" but you always saw and learnt with them, and you could see the progression. Let's hope for a progressive 2025!
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter You’re missing my point. It’s not unique to Razor, this was an inevitable outcome of selecting a Super Rugby coach.
You are essentially asking people to exclude the human element of selection which is nearly impossible… these things generally always fix themselves over time.
Mike Hesson was a great example of this with the BCs… there was some honking Otago bias with his initial selections, but once he lost that, the team set sail. The same will happen with Razor.
You are not going to convince the conspiracy-driven, full-retard, anti-Razor group on here. I'll join them if the coaching group doesn't progress and learn and remain stagnant like the Foster regime which was frustrating to the extreme until Schmit and Ryan got involved. It took Henry and co some "learnings" but you always saw and learnt with them, and you could see the progression. Let's hope for a progressive 2025!
@Old-Samurai-Jack those theories aren't without reason when underdone players who've never set the world on fire are selected.
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Couple of quick comments
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Tavatavanawai. I would have liked him as a bolter on the EOYT. As a winger. Got to show a bit more often to get considered as a midfielder.
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Completely disagree with all you people dissing ALB. Was magnificent on D in 2023. Just awesome off the bench. He's awesome on attack, and has never really dropped in level. Don't see anyone better despite the Canes-tinted glasses for PUJ or Proctor.
@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
Couple of quick comments
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Tavatavanawai. I would have liked him as a bolter on the EOYT. As a winger. Got to show a more often to get considered ad a midfielder.
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Completely disagree with all you people dissinfmg ALB. Was magnificent on D in 2023. Just awesome if the bench. He's awesome on attack, and has never really dropped in level. Don't see anyone better despite the Canes-tinted glasses for PUJ or Proctor.
Would France, Ireland, England or South Africa favour ALB over their best centres?
A solid defender granted but your assertion that he is awesome on attack makes me raise an eyebrow.
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@Old-Samurai-Jack those theories aren't without reason when underdone players who've never set the world on fire are selected.
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@Old-Samurai-Jack those theories aren't without reason when underdone players who've never set the world on fire are selected.
Agreed, but a lot of the comments on here give an insight into the writers bias (often provincial) rather than an analysis of the rugby played no matter what happens on the field.
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
Couple of quick comments
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Tavatavanawai. I would have liked him as a bolter on the EOYT. As a winger. Got to show a more often to get considered ad a midfielder.
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Completely disagree with all you people dissinfmg ALB. Was magnificent on D in 2023. Just awesome if the bench. He's awesome on attack, and has never really dropped in level. Don't see anyone better despite the Canes-tinted glasses for PUJ or Proctor.
Would France, Ireland, England or South Africa favour ALB over their best centres?
A solid defender granted but your assertion that he is awesome on attack makes me raise an eyebrow.
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
Would France, Ireland, England or South Africa favour ALB over their best centres?
As we are talking about the best talent available to the AB's, isn't that a bit irrelevant though?
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@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
Would France, Ireland, England or South Africa favour ALB over their best centres?
As we are talking about the best talent available to the AB's, isn't that a bit irrelevant though?
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
Would France, Ireland, England or South Africa favour ALB over their best centres?
As we are talking about the best talent available to the AB's, isn't that a bit irrelevant though?
Also reckon ALB would have a very good chance of making a home nations squad.
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@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks 2025:
@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
Fabian Holland, if fit, is a near certainty to be added to the AB squad.
Barrett, Vaa'i, Lord, Tuipulotu, Holland (and an injured Darry) isn't a bad crop of options.
Yeah add in the front row we have and we'll be competitive with anyone in 2025.
I really hope they use a quick 7.
Bout time also that DMac runs the show from 10 with no interruptions. -
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
I really hope they use a quick 7.
Lakai? Anyone else?
Kirifi is probably quicker.
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@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
Would France, Ireland, England or South Africa favour ALB over their best centres?
As we are talking about the best talent available to the AB's, isn't that a bit irrelevant though?
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
Would France, Ireland, England or South Africa favour ALB over their best centres?
As we are talking about the best talent available to the AB's, isn't that a bit irrelevant though?
My contention is he isn’t the best available.
That’s my point.The other teams seem to select on upside.
How is Thomas Ramos defence?
How is Bundee Aki’s kicking game?
How is Jonathan Dantys distribution?So for all the perceived deficiencies of the aforementioned NZ players , the likes of Stevensons boot and line breaking ability, or Sotutus hand skills or Laumapes block buster runs could have been used instead of ALB and his ilk crabbing around behind the gain line or running in treacle when in space.
And before people talk about some of these players sub par D or workrate or whatever, remember we have been shipping 30 odd points to Argentina at home anyway. with the "safe" incumbents. The good communicators, the safe pairs of hands. The honest toilers.
Maybe a howitzer boot at 15 or a big carry might keep us away from our own end of the field longer and they might not have to tackle or toil as much anyway.
We have been selecting our squads through a lens of anxiety rather than enthusiasm.
How many caps would Wallace have if Blackadder had stayed fit?
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
Would France, Ireland, England or South Africa favour ALB over their best centres?
As we are talking about the best talent available to the AB's, isn't that a bit irrelevant though?
My contention is he isn’t the best available.
That’s my point.The other teams seem to select on upside.
How is Thomas Ramos defence?
How is Bundee Aki’s kicking game?
How is Jonathan Dantys distribution?So for all the perceived deficiencies of the aforementioned NZ players , the likes of Stevensons boot and line breaking ability, or Sotutus hand skills or Laumapes block buster runs could have been used instead of ALB and his ilk crabbing around behind the gain line or running in treacle when in space.
And before people talk about some of these players sub par D or workrate or whatever, remember we have been shipping 30 odd points to Argentina at home anyway. with the "safe" incumbents. The good communicators, the safe pairs of hands. The honest toilers.
Maybe a howitzer boot at 15 or a big carry might keep us away from our own end of the field longer and they might not have to tackle or toil as much anyway.
We have been selecting our squads through a lens of anxiety rather than enthusiasm.
How many caps would Wallace have if Blackadder had stayed fit?
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
Would France, Ireland, England or South Africa favour ALB over their best centres?
As we are talking about the best talent available to the AB's, isn't that a bit irrelevant though?
My contention is he isn’t the best available.
That’s my point.The other teams seem to select on upside.
How is Thomas Ramos defence?
How is Bundee Aki’s kicking game?
How is Jonathan Dantys distribution?So for all the perceived deficiencies of the aforementioned NZ players , the likes of Stevensons boot and line breaking ability, or Sotutus hand skills or Laumapes block buster runs could have been used instead of ALB and his ilk crabbing around behind the gain line or running in treacle when in space.
And before people talk about some of these players sub par D or workrate or whatever, remember we have been shipping 30 odd points to Argentina at home anyway. with the "safe" incumbents. The good communicators, the safe pairs of hands. The honest toilers.
Maybe a howitzer boot at 15 or a big carry might keep us away from our own end of the field longer and they might not have to tackle or toil as much anyway.
We have been selecting our squads through a lens of anxiety rather than enthusiasm.
How many caps would Wallace have if Blackadder had stayed fit?
Understand your point on selection generally, but I'm talking about ALB and 12/13 - where he's been a bench option as he can play both positions. And don't forget here was an injury-curse between 2020-3. And while we can talk "what if" about Laumape for weeks, he left 5 years ago.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
Would France, Ireland, England or South Africa favour ALB over their best centres?
As we are talking about the best talent available to the AB's, isn't that a bit irrelevant though?
My contention is he isn’t the best available.
That’s my point.The other teams seem to select on upside.
How is Thomas Ramos defence?
How is Bundee Aki’s kicking game?
How is Jonathan Dantys distribution?So for all the perceived deficiencies of the aforementioned NZ players , the likes of Stevensons boot and line breaking ability, or Sotutus hand skills or Laumapes block buster runs could have been used instead of ALB and his ilk crabbing around behind the gain line or running in treacle when in space.
And before people talk about some of these players sub par D or workrate or whatever, remember we have been shipping 30 odd points to Argentina at home anyway. with the "safe" incumbents. The good communicators, the safe pairs of hands. The honest toilers.
Maybe a howitzer boot at 15 or a big carry might keep us away from our own end of the field longer and they might not have to tackle or toil as much anyway.
We have been selecting our squads through a lens of anxiety rather than enthusiasm.
How many caps would Wallace have if Blackadder had stayed fit?
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@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
Would France, Ireland, England or South Africa favour ALB over their best centres?
As we are talking about the best talent available to the AB's, isn't that a bit irrelevant though?
My contention is he isn’t the best available.
That’s my point.The other teams seem to select on upside.
How is Thomas Ramos defence?
How is Bundee Aki’s kicking game?
How is Jonathan Dantys distribution?So for all the perceived deficiencies of the aforementioned NZ players , the likes of Stevensons boot and line breaking ability, or Sotutus hand skills or Laumapes block buster runs could have been used instead of ALB and his ilk crabbing around behind the gain line or running in treacle when in space.
And before people talk about some of these players sub par D or workrate or whatever, remember we have been shipping 30 odd points to Argentina at home anyway. with the "safe" incumbents. The good communicators, the safe pairs of hands. The honest toilers.
Maybe a howitzer boot at 15 or a big carry might keep us away from our own end of the field longer and they might not have to tackle or toil as much anyway.
We have been selecting our squads through a lens of anxiety rather than enthusiasm.
How many caps would Wallace have if Blackadder had stayed fit?
Understand your point on selection generally, but I'm talking about ALB and 12/13 - where he's been a bench option as he can play both positions. And don't forget here was an injury-curse between 2020-3. And while we can talk "what if" about Laumape for weeks, he left 5 years ago.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
Would France, Ireland, England or South Africa favour ALB over their best centres?
As we are talking about the best talent available to the AB's, isn't that a bit irrelevant though?
My contention is he isn’t the best available.
That’s my point.The other teams seem to select on upside.
How is Thomas Ramos defence?
How is Bundee Aki’s kicking game?
How is Jonathan Dantys distribution?So for all the perceived deficiencies of the aforementioned NZ players , the likes of Stevensons boot and line breaking ability, or Sotutus hand skills or Laumapes block buster runs could have been used instead of ALB and his ilk crabbing around behind the gain line or running in treacle when in space.
And before people talk about some of these players sub par D or workrate or whatever, remember we have been shipping 30 odd points to Argentina at home anyway. with the "safe" incumbents. The good communicators, the safe pairs of hands. The honest toilers.
Maybe a howitzer boot at 15 or a big carry might keep us away from our own end of the field longer and they might not have to tackle or toil as much anyway.
We have been selecting our squads through a lens of anxiety rather than enthusiasm.
How many caps would Wallace have if Blackadder had stayed fit?
Understand your point on selection generally, but I'm talking about ALB and 12/13 - where he's been a bench option as he can play both positions. And don't forget here was an injury-curse between 2020-3. And while we can talk "what if" about Laumape for weeks, he left 5 years ago.
Indeed he left 5 years ago, but it speaks to the selection paralysis that crept in post 2015 and seems to be fully entrenched now.
He was the top scorer in Super Rugby that year and cast aside, akin to Sotutu or Stevenson for example not being given a gig last year.
When you see the garbage the likes of Sevu Reece served up last year or Rieko Ioane over running every pass reception since his move to 13, you'd forgive Proctor or Stevenson or Narawa or Love for wondering why they cant get an audition (with the first 15) not a hodge podge dirt tracking San Diego game.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2025:
@Crazy-Horse i mean...what else are we looking for? strong runner, good if basic distribution (no one is SBW), strong on D and LOVES a pilfer and can even bang the odd 50/22...most importantly he's making solid decisions, runs to his support, works hard to get front foot ball and looks to get outside his man to put outsides in space
not saying hes a 10 in every one of of those facets....but the fact he has them is a bloody good start
Agree he did a lot of that on the weekend and he may turn out to be the champ we are looking for, but has he played more than two Super games at 12? It is still very early days for him.
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2025:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2025:
@Crazy-Horse i mean...what else are we looking for? strong runner, good if basic distribution (no one is SBW), strong on D and LOVES a pilfer and can even bang the odd 50/22...most importantly he's making solid decisions, runs to his support, works hard to get front foot ball and looks to get outside his man to put outsides in space
not saying hes a 10 in every one of of those facets....but the fact he has them is a bloody good start
Agree he did a lot of that on the weekend and he may turn out to be the champ we are looking for, but has he played more than two Super games at 12? It is still very early days for him.
my only counter point is he was doing all those things last year too just with a different number on his back, i think we should have some confidence...defaulting to the status quo for another year...just feels weak
he's also looking this good whilst being captain where as other wilt under that extra pressure
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Not buying in to @sparky 's logic.
Sparky: France beat Italy by more than we did. Therefore France will beat ABs.
Also Sparky: Ignores NZ beat England 3x. Eng beat France ...
@booboo Those games confirm my broader point that there is no room for complacency for the ABs at moment.
They narrowly beat England in all three of those games. All three could have gone the other way. If George Ford had landed a simple drop goal shot England would have won the last one. None of those were anything other than mediocre performances by the All Blacks.
Robertson and co. will have to offer more in 2025 or serious questions will be asked whether they are up to the job.
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@booboo Those games confirm my broader point that there is no room for complacency for the ABs at moment.
They narrowly beat England in all three of those games. All three could have gone the other way. If George Ford had landed a simple drop goal shot England would have won the last one. None of those were anything other than mediocre performances by the All Blacks.
Robertson and co. will have to offer more in 2025 or serious questions will be asked whether they are up to the job.
@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
All three could have gone the other way.
fuck, play sliding doors in any game and there are pivotal moments that could have changed the outcome, moreso a successful DG sends the game back to half way, who says we dont score off the restart?
There were other games we could have won last year, but didnt.
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@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
All three could have gone the other way.
fuck, play sliding doors in any game and there are pivotal moments that could have changed the outcome, moreso a successful DG sends the game back to half way, who says we dont score off the restart?
There were other games we could have won last year, but didnt.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
All three could have gone the other way.
There were other games we could have won last year, but didnt.
Yeah, sure, but we didn't.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
All three could have gone the other way.
There were other games we could have won last year, but didnt.
Yeah, sure, but we didn't.
@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
All three could have gone the other way.
There were other games we could have won last year, but didnt.
Yeah, sure, but we didn't.
haha, exactly the same is applied to your comment re England wining those games.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I don’t necessarily think it is unusual that a new coach any sport would favour his trusted old boys when stepping up to the biggest job in the sport, in fact I think it is probably a fair enough natural bias… however in years 2&3 as the natural bias wears off he has to steer away from it, and I expect that it will.
For the 1st half of his first season sure. But your first year is the ideal opportunity to throw a bit of caution to the wind and we saw pretty much the opposite.
Some people will argue it was his 1st year at international level, but Robertson was deliberately chosen to make a complete break from the old, established practice. The inexperience argument just doesn't hold water.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I don’t necessarily think it is unusual that a new coach any sport would favour his trusted old boys when stepping up to the biggest job in the sport, in fact I think it is probably a fair enough natural bias… however in years 2&3 as the natural bias wears off he has to steer away from it, and I expect that it will.
Robertson was deliberately chosen to make a complete break from the old, established practice. The inexperience argument just doesn't hold water.
I am as anti Robertson being conservative as anyone, but I think this is just a straight assumption. We had been playing badly for a long time, picking Foster as a successful assistant but not a successful head coach did not pan out, and so this time they picked a successful coach instead - anyone would have been a break from the Henry era - unless you think they were going to pick one of Foster's assistants?
What doesn't wash with me is Robertson picking average players (Chiefs, Crusaders, Blues), past-it players (Blues, Chiefs, Hurricanes), and players (Crusaders) who have yet to show anything approaching AB level when playing Super. He's done a mediocre job so far, but I don't think his appointment was to clean house any more than a different appointment (Joseph/Cotter/Rennie/whoever) would have been.
