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World Athletics to introduce genetic tests for women
Female athletes will soon have to undergo a one-time genetic test to compete.
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University allowed a professor to hounded out by death threats for writing a book questioning that gender identity was more important than sex. Gets fined,. goes bonkers.
University of Sussex said the regulator had been determined to make an example of its case and "entrench an extreme libertarian free speech position".....it accused the regulator of pursuing a "vindictive and unreasonable campaign".
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@Victor-Meldrew there is this reality disconnection with a supreme sense of righteousness that is a really scary combination. I run into it with people sometimes who are just so sure that what they are doing is God's Work.
Wild.
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@nzzp said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
I run into it with people sometimes who are just so sure that what they are doing is God's Work
Pretty much sums it up. Personally, I think deep down they know their stance is illogical & against biology but can't bring themselves to acknowledge the scientific facts - hence they lash out.
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Let's hope it is firstly logical and fair and secondly a viable stance. Whatever, there will be a backlash.
The trouble is, where does that line get drawn? That line is so blurred now save for the extreme poles (no, not a dig at all you chicks on here), so there will be a lot of people unhappy with whatever the outcome may be.
Common sense would be a good starting point.
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@Catogrande said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
That line is so blurred now
Is it?
You're either male or female. There's no in between.
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Anything that is 'born again' brings out the lunatics.
It used to be harmless god botherers.
Now it's a very vocal, increasingly powerful lunatic fringe - pink or purple of course.
In conversation with these lunatics that keep telling me I'm wrong and that they feel and identify as one of a thousand sexes I tell them
'After watching Wales get hammered by England recently in the 6N I FEEL I could have done a better job in red despite being 58 years old.'
Then I really look them in the eye and say
'But we both know that's ridiculous and impossible'
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This post is deleted!
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@booboo said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Catogrande said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
That line is so blurred now
Is it?
You're either male or female. There's no in between.
Yeah it is. It has become blurred from examples such as Semenya, from scientific “advances” that can alter certain aspects of biological sex and from the ideology that follows. To not acknowledge this is naive.
Agreeing with it is another matter.
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@Catogrande said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@booboo said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Catogrande said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
That line is so blurred now
Is it?
You're either male or female. There's no in between.
Yeah it is. It has become blurred from examples such as Semenya, from scientific “advances” that can alter certain aspects of biological sex and from the ideology that follows. To not acknowledge this is naive.
Agreeing with it is another matter.
sorry but Semenya is not a blurred example. Semenya is a male with a DSD. Semenya benefitted from male development.
Emma Hilton and Ross Tucker have laid out the perfect process to identify who has benefitted from male development (the tweet above is a great start if you haven't read their proposals).
I don't accept the subject is blurred, I do accept that the screening is only the beginning of the process for those who fail the screening, further investigation is required to identify if they have benefitted from male development.
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@Catogrande said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
Let's hope it is firstly logical and fair and secondly a viable stance. Whatever, there will be a backlash.
The trouble is, where does that line get drawn? That line is so blurred now save for the extreme poles (no, not a dig at all you chicks on here), so there will be a lot of people unhappy with whatever the outcome may be.
Common sense would be a good starting point.
Interesting take from Mrs M's DiL who runs in elite events and follows this stuff from that perspective.
Thinks this is exactly the right thing to do and going forward will do much to kill controversy. Hopes it doesn't impact the very small number of individuals who have played by the rules (e.g. Semenya) and thinks phasing it in for them will work.
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Ideally, it will draw a line at a sensible place and put the issue to bed once and for all, but I doubt it.
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@Catogrande said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
FWIW. I hold broadly the same beliefs as you both, however, I also see that events have changed the views, to one degree or another, of many people. This cannot be ignored.
Sorry I'm a bit confused about the above (genuinely), what events / views are you talking about, can you explain?
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I guess I mean what science has given us. Take Semenya’s case for example. Back along, you have a minge, then you’re a woman. But science has allowed us to look past that. It has provided many other tests over and above the minge test. Science has given us the ability to artificially change our sex to a degree and who’s to say that won’t go farther in the future. Scientific progress has given an alternative viewpoint for some, which in turn has spawned the current ideology.
Yeah, I guess that’s what I mean when I say events.
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@Catogrande said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
I guess I mean what science has given us. Take Semenya’s case for example. Back along, you have a minge, then you’re a woman. But science has allowed us to look past that. It has provided many other tests over and above the minge test. Science has given us the ability to artificially change our sex to a degree and who’s to say that won’t go farther in the future. Scientific progress has given an alternative viewpoint for some, which in turn has spawned the current ideology.
Yeah, I guess that’s what I mean when I say events.
I guess it’s true (I don’t know) that there were probably males with dsd’s who competed perfectly innocently in women’s sports in times gone by without ever realising. However, in recent times, it seems that there has been active ‘recruitment’ of these males by nefarious governments / coaches in order to ‘game the system’. At that point, it’s crucial we protect women’s sport from those individuals who have experienced male development.
I’m afraid I don’t accept the line ‘science has given us the ability to artificially change our sex’.
It’s not a matter of belief, it’s simply untrue. It has given us the ability to change our appearance. Sex is immutable.Ultimately I object to the idea that a belief that a man can become a woman is as worthy as the scientific fact that sex is immutable.
I think the fact that we’re having conversations about including males in women’s sport or indeed any other women’s space, has been muddied and empowered by the under ground, anti science, misogynist campaign that pretends twaw.
I find the lumping in of DSD individuals into the same argument distasteful and have sympathy for many of those people who discover they’re actually male later in life. Once it is clear that they are actually male however, if they continue to compete as a woman then they’re just cheats.
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@Dodge said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Catogrande said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
I guess I mean what science has given us. Take Semenya’s case for example. Back along, you have a minge, then you’re a woman. But science has allowed us to look past that. It has provided many other tests over and above the minge test. Science has given us the ability to artificially change our sex to a degree and who’s to say that won’t go farther in the future. Scientific progress has given an alternative viewpoint for some, which in turn has spawned the current ideology.
Yeah, I guess that’s what I mean when I say events.
I guess it’s true (I don’t know) that there were probably males with dsd’s who competed perfectly innocently in women’s sports in times gone by without ever realising. However, in recent times, it seems that there has been active ‘recruitment’ of these males by nefarious governments / coaches in order to ‘game the system’. At that point, it’s crucial we protect women’s sport from those individuals who have experienced male development.
You will not find me arguing against anything there.
I’m afraid I don’t accept the line ‘science has given us the ability to artificially change our sex’. to a degree
It’s not a matter of belief, it’s simply untrue. It has given us the ability to change our appearance. Sex is immutable.I would agree with that. Many would not. This is what I mean by blurred lines.
Ultimately I object to the idea that a belief that a man can become a woman is as worthy as the scientific fact that sex is immutable.
As per my last comment.
I think the fact that we’re having conversations about including males in women’s sport or indeed any other women’s space, has been muddied and empowered by the under ground, anti science, misogynist campaign that pretends twaw.
I didn't think that was the conversation that you and I were having. I wholeheartedly agree with you that women's sport, women's safe places, women's toilets and changing facilities, women's prisons etc should be sacrosanct..
I find the lumping in of DSD individuals into the same argument distasteful and have sympathy for many of those people who discover they’re actually male later in life. Once it is clear that they are actually male however, if they continue to compete as a woman then they’re just cheats.
Again I agree, but many don't.
I seem to have started an argument that isn't really there simply by saying the lines have become blurred. The fact that there are these issues when before there were not, shows that the lines have become blurred. I can't see how such a simple assertion can firstly be denied and secondly is worthy of much of a response.
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Apologies, I wasn't aiming all of my comments at you or the argument i perceived you to be making, the last two in particular were aimed at the wider conversation on this subject
the one point i would add in response to you specifically is that I don't believe there is a compromise here, I don't believe this is blurry and I don't care what other people arguing from the side of 'feels' think about that. One side will have to end up unhappy, and in my view that should categorically be the side of the science deniers and twaw mob. There is only one way to protect women's sport and there should be no compromise.
Transgender debate, in sport, in general
