All Blacks 2025
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@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
See Cam Roigard's omission in RWC final.
He had the hot hand ala Milner Skudder in 2015, and had skinned 6 or 7 Springboks from a standing start from 55m out only a month earlier.
He came on fresh at 73 minutes when the Boks were something like 35 points up and had pretty much switched off. Extrapolating that 7 minutes into how he would have won the RWC final is a bit fanciful.
I rate the guy, he had a good RWC and he's probbly my no.1, but he hasn't exactly set the world on fire a la Twickenham '23 since, nor nailed down the 9 spot quite yet. And let's hope he isn't another NMS career-length wise...
@Victor-Meldrew
The biggest mistake by far over the last 5 years has been the ridiculous conservatism of the AB coaches. They ignored form and favoured the incumbents -
I regret the times when the AB forwards did not have to achieve parity to allow the backs to win the games. With minimal possession, the likes of Carter, Nonu, Conrad and Ben Smith, J. Savea were talented enough to score tries at will. Good times.
@cgrant Roigard DMac Love Proctor Jordan Clarke Ratima Plenty of firepower there
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@Victor-Meldrew
The biggest mistake by far over the last 5 years has been the ridiculous conservatism of the AB coaches. They ignored form and favoured the incumbents@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew
The biggest mistake by far over the last 5 years has been the ridiculous conservatism of the AB coaches. They ignored form and favoured the incumbentsnonsense. Havilli and Blackadder just need more time in the jersey to feel at home and really shine.
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I think we have the players to take us through to the next WC in Australia
My biggest concern is captaincy
I think Savea should be captain -
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@Grooter He's not far away - made the AB's XV last year.
But, it's a tough row to hoe in the loose forwards.
I've picked six - Savea, Sititi, Blackadder, Frizell, Finau, PapaliĂ
But, the you've got, Jacobson, Lakai, Sotutu, Lio-Willie, Haig, Parker, Kirifi, Grace and whomever else you want to throw in that's been mentioned in the thread that I've forgotten. Frizz might not be back.
Since when has he achieved such levels of Richie Mounganess ?
One excellent test against the Boks and some inconsistency apart from that doesn't really justify it.
You're welcome to pick your own team.
I reckon if Frizz is back he'll be close.
@Canes4life said - Most of the ABs atm arenât automatic selections
I reckon at least 75% are - and Razor said this week that they're about 90% there (or something similar).
So let's mark me when they pick their team.
I think if the ABs were selected tomorrow this would be pretty close to what they select IMO. Note, Iâve picked 34 players.
Props:
- Williams
- Lomax
- Tosi
- Newell
- De Groot
- Bower
Hookers:
- Taylor
- Taukeiâaho
- Aumua
Locks:
- Darry/Holland
- Barrett
- Tuipolotu
- Vaâai
Loose forwards:
- Sititi
- Savea
- Finau
- Jacobsen
- Lakai
- Blackadder/Papaliâi/Kirifi - take your pick.
Halfbacks:
- Roigard
- Ratima
- Hotham/Preston
First fives:
- Barrett
- McKenzie
Centres:
- Barrett - can cover fullback
- Proctor
- Havili
- Ioane - can cover wing
- Leinert-Brown / Tupaea
Outside backs:
- Clarke
- Jordan
- Love
- Narawa
- Reece
You are very conservative. I think there will be one or two bolters.
@cgrant said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@Grooter He's not far away - made the AB's XV last year.
But, it's a tough row to hoe in the loose forwards.
I've picked six - Savea, Sititi, Blackadder, Frizell, Finau, PapaliĂ
But, the you've got, Jacobson, Lakai, Sotutu, Lio-Willie, Haig, Parker, Kirifi, Grace and whomever else you want to throw in that's been mentioned in the thread that I've forgotten. Frizz might not be back.
Since when has he achieved such levels of Richie Mounganess ?
One excellent test against the Boks and some inconsistency apart from that doesn't really justify it.
You're welcome to pick your own team.
I reckon if Frizz is back he'll be close.
@Canes4life said - Most of the ABs atm arenât automatic selections
I reckon at least 75% are - and Razor said this week that they're about 90% there (or something similar).
So let's mark me when they pick their team.
I think if the ABs were selected tomorrow this would be pretty close to what they select IMO. Note, Iâve picked 34 players.
Props:
- Williams
- Lomax
- Tosi
- Newell
- De Groot
- Bower
Hookers:
- Taylor
- Taukeiâaho
- Aumua
Locks:
- Darry/Holland
- Barrett
- Tuipolotu
- Vaâai
Loose forwards:
- Sititi
- Savea
- Finau
- Jacobsen
- Lakai
- Blackadder/Papaliâi/Kirifi - take your pick.
Halfbacks:
- Roigard
- Ratima
- Hotham/Preston
First fives:
- Barrett
- McKenzie
Centres:
- Barrett - can cover fullback
- Proctor
- Havili
- Ioane - can cover wing
- Leinert-Brown / Tupaea
Outside backs:
- Clarke
- Jordan
- Love
- Narawa
- Reece
You are very conservative. I think there will be one or two bolters.
I'm sure there will be but I don't think the coaches will sway too far from what they selected last year. They will want to build on last year with a lot of players they selected in 2024.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I am genuinely curious, what do these "bold" selections actually look like? Wallace Sititi and Pasilio Tosi were both very bold picks.
See, for me this is concerning. We've got so used to mediocrity that selecting absolute stand out form players and only getting them on the field if injury strikes, is considered very bold.
Sititi showed good form, but hardly put in a body of work that said he was an All Black for the here and now. As for Tosi - was he on anyone's radar?
Sititi's performance in the semi final vs the Canes was about as obvious of a 'pick me I'm All Black material' as it gets - he was the best player on the field by a country mile.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I am genuinely curious, what do these "bold" selections actually look like? Wallace Sititi and Pasilio Tosi were both very bold picks.
See, for me this is concerning. We've got so used to mediocrity that selecting absolute stand out form players and only getting them on the field if injury strikes, is considered very bold.
Sititi showed good form, but hardly put in a body of work that said he was an All Black for the here and now. As for Tosi - was he on anyone's radar?
Sititi's performance in the semi final vs the Canes was about as obvious of a 'pick me I'm All Black material' as it gets - he was the best player on the field by a country mile.
Yeah I remember thinking to myself in the stands watching that game 'who the fook is this guy' and why is he single handedly ruining our season.
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As I remember it, there was a lot of crowing on here about how good our loose forward depth was last year pre-AB season. Then our loosies, as a unit, were consistently owned by just about everyone as far down as Argentina.
That was with incumbent world player of the year Savea and soon-to-be breakout player of the year Sititi. And generally the tighties weren't too bad either - in fact no individual was playing really that badly - the balance was just wrong.
The backs were a bit shit though. Pattern or players, whatever - if the players you pick can't play the pattern you want that's still a selection issue. Are we really going to suffer through another Beauden-Jordie-Ioane 'hi we're the backline for the world's greatest team but none of us can actually pass' year? Roigard better pick his act up too, based on his last game he'd just about make that list of can run can't pass. -
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I am genuinely curious, what do these "bold" selections actually look like? Wallace Sititi and Pasilio Tosi were both very bold picks.
See, for me this is concerning. We've got so used to mediocrity that selecting absolute stand out form players and only getting them on the field if injury strikes, is considered very bold.
Sititi showed good form, but hardly put in a body of work that said he was an All Black for the here and now. As for Tosi - was he on anyone's radar?
Sititi's performance in the semi final vs the Canes was about as obvious of a 'pick me I'm All Black material' as it gets - he was the best player on the field by a country mile.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I am genuinely curious, what do these "bold" selections actually look like? Wallace Sititi and Pasilio Tosi were both very bold picks.
See, for me this is concerning. We've got so used to mediocrity that selecting absolute stand out form players and only getting them on the field if injury strikes, is considered very bold.
Sititi showed good form, but hardly put in a body of work that said he was an All Black for the here and now. As for Tosi - was he on anyone's radar?
Sititi's performance in the semi final vs the Canes was about as obvious of a 'pick me I'm All Black material' as it gets - he was the best player on the field by a country mile.
Sure, but I'd wager he was probably already in the squad before that game. I don't think a guy gets picked for the ABs based off one game.
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look, guys like Jacobson, Havili and Blackadder are really good rugby players. On top of this, Blackadder aside, they are showing good domestic form.
My problem is, they have shown domestic form before, only to go on and prove to not be needle movers at test level. So why pick them again? what is the point? They're not different players this year, they are the same players in the same form. Picking them because experience and cover is about as conservative as you can get. They should be replaced by the new guys to see if they can be difference makers.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I am genuinely curious, what do these "bold" selections actually look like? Wallace Sititi and Pasilio Tosi were both very bold picks.
See, for me this is concerning. We've got so used to mediocrity that selecting absolute stand out form players and only getting them on the field if injury strikes, is considered very bold.
Sititi showed good form, but hardly put in a body of work that said he was an All Black for the here and now. As for Tosi - was he on anyone's radar?
Sititi's performance in the semi final vs the Canes was about as obvious of a 'pick me I'm All Black material' as it gets - he was the best player on the field by a country mile.
Sure, but I'd wager he was probably already in the squad before that game. I don't think a guy gets picked for the ABs based off one game.
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I am genuinely curious, what do these "bold" selections actually look like? Wallace Sititi and Pasilio Tosi were both very bold picks.
See, for me this is concerning. We've got so used to mediocrity that selecting absolute stand out form players and only getting them on the field if injury strikes, is considered very bold.
Sititi showed good form, but hardly put in a body of work that said he was an All Black for the here and now. As for Tosi - was he on anyone's radar?
Sititi's performance in the semi final vs the Canes was about as obvious of a 'pick me I'm All Black material' as it gets - he was the best player on the field by a country mile.
Sure, but I'd wager he was probably already in the squad before that game. I don't think a guy gets picked for the ABs based off one game.
It's hard for me to comment on that, maybe a Chiefs fan can shed some light, but I don't recall him playing the house down before that game. I also remember Razor saying in an interview when the initial squad was selected that a couple players shone in the playoffs that caught his eye, so to me that means Sititi made a late claim and was picked after ignore based on his block busting game against the Canes. Any excuse not to pick Sotutu as well was probably a factor and also don't forget Brayden Iose was also in the conversation after a big season before Sititi completely outplayed him.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I am genuinely curious, what do these "bold" selections actually look like? Wallace Sititi and Pasilio Tosi were both very bold picks.
See, for me this is concerning. We've got so used to mediocrity that selecting absolute stand out form players and only getting them on the field if injury strikes, is considered very bold.
Sititi showed good form, but hardly put in a body of work that said he was an All Black for the here and now. As for Tosi - was he on anyone's radar?
Sititi's performance in the semi final vs the Canes was about as obvious of a 'pick me I'm All Black material' as it gets - he was the best player on the field by a country mile.
Sure, but I'd wager he was probably already in the squad before that game. I don't think a guy gets picked for the ABs based off one game.
It's hard for me to comment on that, maybe a Chiefs fan can shed some light, but I don't recall him playing the house down before that game. I also remember Razor saying in an interview when the initial squad was selected that a couple players shone in the playoffs that caught his eye, so to me that means Sititi made a late claim and was picked after ignore based on his block busting game against the Canes. Any excuse not to pick Sotutu as well was probably a factor and also don't forget Brayden Iose was also in the conversation after a big season before Sititi completely outplayed him.
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
based on his block busting game against the Canes. ... Iose ...
I detect a pattern
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Sititi signs on through to the WC, great news for NZ Rugby.
https://www.instagram.com/p/DJ2JszvzzgK/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
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Some good news for the upcoming French series.
The president of the FĂ©dĂ©ration Française de Rugby (FFR) has brushed off claims of a France âBâ team touring New Zealand in July, giving the strongest indication yet that âexceptions are possibleâ for some French stars involved in the Top 14 final.
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@KiwiMurph said in Moana Pasifika v Blues:
@booboo said in Moana Pasifika v Blues:
Who on earth has thought that "Ardie is not All Black level" in the last nine years?
Plenty suggested he didn't play that well last year. And they were right.
Definition of a straw man argument
and it drives particular balance requirements in the other two loosies.
The issue was not with Ardie, it was Ardie + Sam Cane left an awful lot for the 6 to do ... you needed peak Kaino to try to balance it up.
Our loose forwards have not been super impressive over the last few years
@nzzp said in Moana Pasifika v Blues:
@KiwiMurph said in Moana Pasifika v Blues:
@booboo said in Moana Pasifika v Blues:
Who on earth has thought that "Ardie is not All Black level" in the last nine years?
Plenty suggested he didn't play that well last year. And they were right.
Definition of a straw man argument
and it drives particular balance requirements in the other two loosies.
The issue was not with Ardie, it was Ardie + Sam Cane left an awful lot for the 6 to do ... you needed peak Kaino to try to balance it up.
Our loose forwards have not been super impressive over the last few years
Yes. Our loosies have been a bit shit, less than the sum of their parts - and it all started with Foster making Cane captain, when Savea was the better 7. That forced Savea from 7 to 8, with both of them undroppable, and left us with no balance.
7 has always been his best position. -
look, guys like Jacobson, Havili and Blackadder are really good rugby players. On top of this, Blackadder aside, they are showing good domestic form.
My problem is, they have shown domestic form before, only to go on and prove to not be needle movers at test level. So why pick them again? what is the point? They're not different players this year, they are the same players in the same form. Picking them because experience and cover is about as conservative as you can get. They should be replaced by the new guys to see if they can be difference makers.
@mariner4life There's obviously some truth in what you say, but there's also some caveats.
One is that we're never going to have 36 Richie McCaws in our squad. There's always going to be a continuum from the brilliant, to guys on the fringe who you wish were better.
But, that doesn't mean picking the next cab off the rank will be (better). There's got to be a reasonable chance that he will be - otherwise, you're just selecting someone to "give them a go", with a risk that their "difference-making" will be to lose the match for you.
It's pretty rare, IMO, that a brilliant young player gets ignored/missed for long. More likely you're shuffling the third choice and fourth choice guys.
Sometimes, you're just better off with the journeymen. Case in point, 2011 RWC Final.
The Fern would have shot Beaver and Andy Ellis into the sun if they'd had a rocket - but, in the end, they were guys who could do what was necessary.
Contrast to probably 2007 and 2019, where the bright and shiny boys didn't quite have the resilience.
And probably, the first Bok test last year, when we had the winning of the game until the last 10 minutes, when we had to roll out lots of guys with few tests between them and the Boks finished over the top of us.
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@mariner4life There's obviously some truth in what you say, but there's also some caveats.
One is that we're never going to have 36 Richie McCaws in our squad. There's always going to be a continuum from the brilliant, to guys on the fringe who you wish were better.
But, that doesn't mean picking the next cab off the rank will be (better). There's got to be a reasonable chance that he will be - otherwise, you're just selecting someone to "give them a go", with a risk that their "difference-making" will be to lose the match for you.
It's pretty rare, IMO, that a brilliant young player gets ignored/missed for long. More likely you're shuffling the third choice and fourth choice guys.
Sometimes, you're just better off with the journeymen. Case in point, 2011 RWC Final.
The Fern would have shot Beaver and Andy Ellis into the sun if they'd had a rocket - but, in the end, they were guys who could do what was necessary.
Contrast to probably 2007 and 2019, where the bright and shiny boys didn't quite have the resilience.
And probably, the first Bok test last year, when we had the winning of the game until the last 10 minutes, when we had to roll out lots of guys with few tests between them and the Boks finished over the top of us.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life There's obviously some truth in what you say, but there's also some caveats.
One is that we're never going to have 36 Richie McCaws in our squad. There's always going to be a continuum from the brilliant, to guys on the fringe who you wish were better.
But, that doesn't mean picking the next cab off the rank will be (better). There's got to be a reasonable chance that he will be - otherwise, you're just selecting someone to "give them a go", with a risk that their "difference-making" will be to lose the match for you.
It's pretty rare, IMO, that a brilliant young player gets ignored/missed for long. More likely you're shuffling the third choice and fourth choice guys.
**Sometimes, you're just better off with the journeymen. Case in point, 2011 RWC Final.
The Fern would have shot Beaver and Andy Ellis into the sun if they'd had a rocket - but, in the end, they were guys who could do what was necessary.**
Contrast to probably 2007 and 2019, where the bright and shiny boys didn't quite have the resilience.
And probably, the first Bok test last year, when we had the winning of the game until the last 10 minutes, when we had to roll out lots of guys with few tests between them and the Boks finished over the top of us.
The journeymen were surrounded by the shinies in 2011 in McCaw, Nonu, Smith, Read, Kaino etc ... so let's not go too far down that track Mitch.
In 2007we lost two 10s in the match, and the superstar GOAT subsequently admitted that we made the error of not setting for a droppie and instead played for a penalty.
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@mariner4life There's obviously some truth in what you say, but there's also some caveats.
One is that we're never going to have 36 Richie McCaws in our squad. There's always going to be a continuum from the brilliant, to guys on the fringe who you wish were better.
But, that doesn't mean picking the next cab off the rank will be (better). There's got to be a reasonable chance that he will be - otherwise, you're just selecting someone to "give them a go", with a risk that their "difference-making" will be to lose the match for you.
It's pretty rare, IMO, that a brilliant young player gets ignored/missed for long. More likely you're shuffling the third choice and fourth choice guys.
Sometimes, you're just better off with the journeymen. Case in point, 2011 RWC Final.
The Fern would have shot Beaver and Andy Ellis into the sun if they'd had a rocket - but, in the end, they were guys who could do what was necessary.
Contrast to probably 2007 and 2019, where the bright and shiny boys didn't quite have the resilience.
And probably, the first Bok test last year, when we had the winning of the game until the last 10 minutes, when we had to roll out lots of guys with few tests between them and the Boks finished over the top of us.
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@Chris-B first bok test last year, wasn't it one of the most experienced guys (Ofa) from the bench who got the yellow card?
@reprobate It was. But, we also botched a lineout and gave away a dumb penalty to piggyback the Boks up the field.
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Some good news for the upcoming French series.
The president of the FĂ©dĂ©ration Française de Rugby (FFR) has brushed off claims of a France âBâ team touring New Zealand in July, giving the strongest indication yet that âexceptions are possibleâ for some French stars involved in the Top 14 final.
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
Some good news for the upcoming French series.
The president of the FĂ©dĂ©ration Française de Rugby (FFR) has brushed off claims of a France âBâ team touring New Zealand in July, giving the strongest indication yet that âexceptions are possibleâ for some French stars involved in the Top 14 final.
Realistically how many?
Compare to an All Black Team without C, say, Chiefs and Saders.
Groot
Aumua
Lomax
Paddy T
Holland
Kirifi
Iose
Lakai
Roigard
Barrett
Clarke
Barrett
Ioane/ Proctor
Telea/Lam
Love?
?
Tosi
?
Savea / Papalii
Christie (I know)
Tavatavanawai / Lam / Tangitau / Taele -
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
Some good news for the upcoming French series.
The president of the FĂ©dĂ©ration Française de Rugby (FFR) has brushed off claims of a France âBâ team touring New Zealand in July, giving the strongest indication yet that âexceptions are possibleâ for some French stars involved in the Top 14 final.
Realistically how many?
Compare to an All Black Team without C, say, Chiefs and Saders.
Groot
Aumua
Lomax
Paddy T
Holland
Kirifi
Iose
Lakai
Roigard
Barrett
Clarke
Barrett
Ioane/ Proctor
Telea/Lam
Love?
?
Tosi
?
Savea / Papalii
Christie (I know)
Tavatavanawai / Lam / Tangitau / Taele@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
Some good news for the upcoming French series.
The president of the FĂ©dĂ©ration Française de Rugby (FFR) has brushed off claims of a France âBâ team touring New Zealand in July, giving the strongest indication yet that âexceptions are possibleâ for some French stars involved in the Top 14 final.
Realistically how many?
Compare to an All Black Team without C, say, Chiefs and Saders.
Groot
Aumua
Lomax
Paddy T
Holland
Kirifi
Iose
Lakai
Roigard
Barrett
Clarke
Barrett
Ioane/ Proctor
Telea/Lam
Love?
?
Tosi
?
Savea / Papalii
Christie (I know)
Tavatavanawai / Lam / Tangitau / TaeleI think Du Pont is injured, but hopefully Romain Ntamack, Damian Penaud and Louis Bielle-Biarrey come across.
