All Blacks 2025

MN5

@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:

@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:

@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:

@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:

@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:

@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:

Ryan and Sotutu having had a positive chat

I can see Sotutu going overseas for the big $$$ and to play for England.

I not sure he would get in English squad. I have to admit, I not as convinced as some how good he is. Just personal thing.

As it happens, they've just announced one:
Richard Capstick
Ben Curry
Alex Dombrandt
Emeka Illione
Jack Kenningham
Tom Willis

If he was eligible for that list, I'd reckon he'd be on it.

Three of them are with the Lions though

None of them are with the Lions, three others are (and there are injuries) - nevertheless, it's the current England squad.

That's what I meant so it is a weakened squad

Mr Fish

My thoughts, a month out from squad selection...

Hookers
Guaranteed - Codie Taylor, Asafo Aumua, Samisoni Taukei'aho
George Bell drops out to accommodate the return of Taukei'aho. Brodie McAlister has also been playing well but there's just no space. A position of real strength at the moment.

Props
Guaranteed - Tamaiti Williams, Tyrel Lomax, Fletcher Newell
Probable - Ethan de Groot, Pasilio Tosi, Ofa Tu'ungafasi (if fit)
Possible - George Bower, Ollie Norris, George Dyer
Razor could easily stick with the same six as last year, who all earned considerable minutes. There's a question mark hanging over Tu'ungafasi's availability which could open the door for another loosehead, while Dyer has once again been strong and started both games for the All Blacks XV at the end of last year.

Locks
Guaranteed - Scott Barrett, Tupou Vaa'i
Probable - Patrick Tuipulotu
Possible - Josh Lord, Fabian Holland, Naitoa Ah Kuoi
Likely just a straight shoot-out between Lord and Holland unless there's room for five locks (which could be feasible, if Vaa'i is considered as a blindside option), although Sam Darry could make a miraculous return. Ah Kuoi is the dark horse, and featured for the All Blacks XV. Isaia Walker-Leawere started both matches for the XV but can't see him getting selected ahead of any of the other options.

Loose forwards
Guaranteed - Wallace Sititi, Ardie Savea
Probable - Luke Jacobson, Ethan Blackadder, Peter Lakai, Samipeni Finau
Possible - Dalton Papali'i, Hoskins Sotutu, Simon Parker, Du'Plessis Kirifi
Papali'i was on the outer last year and hasn't done anything different this year for the Blues so it's difficult to see why Razor would change his approach here. With Savea, Lakai, Jacobson and Blackadder all capable of playing 7, there's not much need for either Papali'i or Kirifi. There might be room for a big bopper like Parker.

Halfbacks
Guaranteed - Cam Roigard, Cortez Ratima
Probable - Noah Hotham
Possible - Folau Fakatava
Hotham has the inside running as the third halfback but Fakatava has made a few strides forward in recent times. The big question might be whether Hotham's availability for the Maori All Blacks will affect Razor's thinking - would it be better for him to start two games against Japan instead of holding tackle bags for the ABs, and Fakatava watching on TV?

First fives
Guaranteed - Damian McKenzie, Beauden Barrett
There are no other realistic options at 10 right now. Jacomb simply isn't ready yet. Ruben Love and Stephen Perofeta could cover the role if selected but would likely primarily feature at fullback.

Midfield
Guaranteed - Jordie Barrett, Rieko Ioane, Billy Proctor
Probable - Anton Lienert-Brown (if fit), Quinn Tupaea
Possible - David Havili, Xavi Taele, AJ Lam
With Jordie Barrett shouldering a heavy load over the past 18 months, Razor could opt for three 12 options - which may or may not include Lienert-Brown. Tupaea and Lam are probably going head-to-head for one spot, with both capable at 12 and an option on the wing. Ioane has been very average but won't drop straight out of the squad. Taele is my bolter.

Outside backs
Guaranteed - Caleb Clarke, Will Jordan, Ruben Love
Probable - Sevu Reece
Possible - Mark Tele'a, Emoni Narawa, Caleb Tangitau (if fit), Stephen Perofeta, Chay Fihaki
Jordan and Love will cover fullback, with Beauden Barrett and McKenzie also options there, so there might not be room for Perofeta, who's been underwhelming. Reece is a Razor favourite, even if he does seem too slow in open space. Tele'a will probably miss out given he's heading overseas but we know that didn't stop Razor selecting Sam Cane and (in particular) TJ Perenara last year. Narawa has been consistently good for the Chiefs while Fihaki seems to have the inside running based on last year's 'selection' (and he's definitely been playing better this year, even if he's not bashing the door down still).

sparky

@Mr-Fish Really summary of where we are at.

Maybe Reiko Ioane and Caleb Clarke are both Probables given how poor their Super Rugby has been so far this season.

Some really good players are going to miss out in the backrow.

We seem a little light in the midfield and short of real quality on the Wing. Not worried about anywhere else.

Dan54

@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:

@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:

@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:

@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:

Ryan and Sotutu having had a positive chat

I can see Sotutu going overseas for the big $$$ and to play for England.

I not sure he would get in English squad. I have to admit, I not as convinced as some how good he is. Just personal thing.

Razor has hacked Dan's account

I an so proud that you think the AB coaches feel the need to hack my account!!:beaming_face_with_smiling_eyes: :beaming_face_with_smiling_eyes:

Dan54

@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:

@Frank said in All Blacks 2025:

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:

@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2025:

I wonder if that means no Hoskins

Even if fatty Ryan wasn't a hater, the problem for Hos is that he's an 8, in a team where the coach doesn't like specialists.

And the third best 8 in NZ after Savea and Sititi.

Who are the player of the year in 7, and the incumbent AB 6....

I agree about incumbent (and very good) 6 for ABs, but Ardie was player of the year at 8 (not 7).

Dan54

@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:

@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:

@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:

@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:

@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:

@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:

Ryan and Sotutu having had a positive chat

I can see Sotutu going overseas for the big $$$ and to play for England.

I not sure he would get in English squad. I have to admit, I not as convinced as some how good he is. Just personal thing.

As it happens, they've just announced one:
Richard Capstick
Ben Curry
Alex Dombrandt
Emeka Illione
Jack Kenningham
Tom Willis

If he was eligible for that list, I'd reckon he'd be on it.

Three of them are with the Lions though

None of them are with the Lions, three others are (and there are injuries) - nevertheless, it's the current England squad.
edit: unless that's what Dan meant - he wouldn't make the squad because he'd be with the Lions?

No, not suggesting he couldn't make Pom team, just not sure he would find it that easy. Just from what I have seen of the 8s playing there at moment, they got a few decent ones, and it probably depend on the balance of other loosies. He is probably capable of making the team (as he is of making ABs if everything fell into place), but has never given me impression of player who would be a top quality test player.

Nepia

@reprobate said in Moana Pasifika v Blues:

@nzzp said in Moana Pasifika v Blues:

@KiwiMurph said in Moana Pasifika v Blues:

@booboo said in Moana Pasifika v Blues:

Who on earth has thought that "Ardie is not All Black level" in the last nine years?

Plenty suggested he didn't play that well last year. And they were right.

Definition of a straw man argument

and it drives particular balance requirements in the other two loosies.

The issue was not with Ardie, it was Ardie + Sam Cane left an awful lot for the 6 to do ... you needed peak Kaino to try to balance it up.

Our loose forwards have not been super impressive over the last few years

Yes. Our loosies have been a bit shit, less than the sum of their parts - and it all started with Foster making Cane captain, when Savea was the better 7. That forced Savea from 7 to 8, with both of them undroppable, and left us with no balance.
7 has always been his best position.

There's a bit of revisionism going on in this post. Ardie has always been an outstanding rugby player but that didn't always mean he was the best 7 in the country. His younger days he was the ultimate impact player. And all his player of the year nods etc, peak Ardie, have come when he's been playing 8 with the freedom to roam around.

Aside from a couple of injury effected years Cane was a better 7 (and especially for the game we played), but Ardie was a better all round rugby player.

He's definitely the best 7 going this year.

reprobate

@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:

@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:

@Frank said in All Blacks 2025:

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:

@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2025:

I wonder if that means no Hoskins

Even if fatty Ryan wasn't a hater, the problem for Hos is that he's an 8, in a team where the coach doesn't like specialists.

And the third best 8 in NZ after Savea and Sititi.

Who are the player of the year in 7, and the incumbent AB 6....

I agree about incumbent (and very good) 6 for ABs, but Ardie was player of the year at 8 (not 7).

I mean this year Dan, Ardie would have to be red hot favourite to be super player of the year.

reprobate

@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:

@reprobate said in Moana Pasifika v Blues:

@nzzp said in Moana Pasifika v Blues:

@KiwiMurph said in Moana Pasifika v Blues:

@booboo said in Moana Pasifika v Blues:

Who on earth has thought that "Ardie is not All Black level" in the last nine years?

Plenty suggested he didn't play that well last year. And they were right.

Definition of a straw man argument

and it drives particular balance requirements in the other two loosies.

The issue was not with Ardie, it was Ardie + Sam Cane left an awful lot for the 6 to do ... you needed peak Kaino to try to balance it up.

Our loose forwards have not been super impressive over the last few years

Yes. Our loosies have been a bit shit, less than the sum of their parts - and it all started with Foster making Cane captain, when Savea was the better 7. That forced Savea from 7 to 8, with both of them undroppable, and left us with no balance.
7 has always been his best position.

There's a bit of revisionism going on in this post. Ardie has always been an outstanding rugby player but that didn't always mean he was the best 7 in the country. His younger days he was the ultimate impact player. And all his player of the year nods etc, peak Ardie, have come when he's been playing 8 with the freedom to roam around.

Aside from a couple of injury effected years Cane was a better 7 (and especially for the game we played), but Ardie was a better all round rugby player.

He's definitely the best 7 going this year.

It's not revisionism. Cane was locked in as captain and that meant Ardie could outplay him all he wanted, he wasn't going to play 7 except in the case of injury. That's why he moved to 8.
I like Sam Cane, but what he is/was is a hard accurate tackler with a good workrate who cleans a lot of rucks. Historically, tell me which Michael Jones is that? It's the 6, not the 7 - and Cane has not been a better 7 than Savea for most of that time.
Peak Ardie is right now - he is playing amazing, and miles better than last year - and for me it's no coincidence that it comes with a return to 7. It's just a shame that we haven't had him there the last couple of years. You never know, Cane might have gone to 6, and you wouldn't have had to whinge about Frizz every couple of days too!

Nepia

@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:

@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:

@reprobate said in Moana Pasifika v Blues:

@nzzp said in Moana Pasifika v Blues:

@KiwiMurph said in Moana Pasifika v Blues:

@booboo said in Moana Pasifika v Blues:

Who on earth has thought that "Ardie is not All Black level" in the last nine years?

Plenty suggested he didn't play that well last year. And they were right.

Definition of a straw man argument

and it drives particular balance requirements in the other two loosies.

The issue was not with Ardie, it was Ardie + Sam Cane left an awful lot for the 6 to do ... you needed peak Kaino to try to balance it up.

Our loose forwards have not been super impressive over the last few years

Yes. Our loosies have been a bit shit, less than the sum of their parts - and it all started with Foster making Cane captain, when Savea was the better 7. That forced Savea from 7 to 8, with both of them undroppable, and left us with no balance.
7 has always been his best position.

There's a bit of revisionism going on in this post. Ardie has always been an outstanding rugby player but that didn't always mean he was the best 7 in the country. His younger days he was the ultimate impact player. And all his player of the year nods etc, peak Ardie, have come when he's been playing 8 with the freedom to roam around.

Aside from a couple of injury effected years Cane was a better 7 (and especially for the game we played), but Ardie was a better all round rugby player.

He's definitely the best 7 going this year.

It's not revisionism. Cane was locked in as captain and that meant Ardie could outplay him all he wanted, he wasn't going to play 7 except in the case of injury. That's why he moved to 8.
I like Sam Cane, but what he is/was is a hard accurate tackler with a good workrate who cleans a lot of rucks. Historically, tell me which Michael Jones is that? It's the 6, not the 7 - and Cane has not been a better 7 than Savea for most of that time.
Peak Ardie is right now - he is playing amazing, and miles better than last year - and for me it's no coincidence that it comes with a return to 7. It's just a shame that we haven't had him there the last couple of years. You never know, Cane might have gone to 6, and you wouldn't have had to whinge about Frizz every couple of days too!

Up until the time Cane was made captain Ardie had never nailed himself to be a better 7 (note 7 not player in general), and when he was foolishly placed ahead of Cane at 7 in 2019 it went pear shaped.

Also, Ardie, in the period when Cane was captain, stated he preferred 8 as it gave him more freedom to do the stuff he favours (and the stuff he's awesome at).

We don't know how good a 7 Ardie was in that time as he didn't play there often. Ardie played 10 tests in 2021 when Cane was out injured and only 1 of them was at 7.

I would have supported Cane at 6. I'd prefer to not have to whinge about that useless pice of shit one tackle in a world cup final terrible human being too. Sadly Tubby Ryan means I have to.

Canes4life

@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:

@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:

@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:

@Frank said in All Blacks 2025:

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:

@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2025:

I wonder if that means no Hoskins

Even if fatty Ryan wasn't a hater, the problem for Hos is that he's an 8, in a team where the coach doesn't like specialists.

And the third best 8 in NZ after Savea and Sititi.

Who are the player of the year in 7, and the incumbent AB 6....

I agree about incumbent (and very good) 6 for ABs, but Ardie was player of the year at 8 (not 7).

I mean this year Dan, Ardie would have to be red hot favourite to be super player of the year.

Ardie has already been named Super player of the year hasn't he?

BerniesCorner

@reprobate Ardie should've been playing 7 for the All Blacks for the past 5 years

nonpartizan

This post is deleted!

Bovidae

@nonpartizan The order they come on the field, and alphabetical if two players enter at the same time.

The most well-known example was this:

Mark Ranby's All Black career was restricted to just one match, as a replacement against Samoa in 2001, but he was a respected player at provincial and Super 12 level from 1996 to 2006. And he very nearly had the distinction of being the 1,000th All Black when he and Carl Hayman came on as replacements at the same time. Hayman though took precedence through his alphabetical ranking.

nonpartizan

This post is deleted!

Nogusta

This post is deleted!

Canes4life

Foxy has come out and said Fozzie would have selected Love when he was AB coach. He could have had 20 or so caps by now if it wasn’t for injuries. Foxy said Love would be a staple of the ABs by now if it wasn’t for injuries. Interesting stuff.

Chris B.

@Mr-Fish Almost exactly how I see it - noting that it'll be a 35 man squad apparently, so there will be three additions to what you've picked as guaranteed and probable (and it's possible a probable or two won't make it).

A few additional comments:
Moananu has come from almost nowhere to be worth a mention in the conversation. The top three are pretty clear and were pretty clear last year - which is why I thought Razor made a good decision picking the project Bell over Riccitelli. If everyone stays fit, George won't be in the AB squad this year and nor will Ricky - so they've got some work done on GB for the future.

I'm not so negative on Dalton's prospects. He got pushed behind Sam Cane for the second part of the season - but was still the second choice openside, I think. Sam is gone and I suspect they'll push Ardie to openside, but DP likely to be the number two. And there's space for another loose forward. I think Finau vs Parker might be an equation - Frizell might be part of that equation as well. I'm also not as negative on Hoskins' prospects as many - Razor said last year they were going to call him up after injuries and NPC, but HS was injured. He would be an excellent bench option - as long as we're comfortable with Sititi covering 7 (assuming Ardie starts there).

Xavier Roe a contender at 9.

From what I've seen, Love is likely to be the first five cover ahead of Perofeta and Jacombe.

Ennor is a midfield shot if he stays fit and plays well.

Lam is an outside back shot, who can help cover midfield from the bench. I don't think they'll pick Tele'a - last year they were short on experience, so having the old heads of Cane and Perenara around the squad made some sense (and TJ probably hadn't signed overseas when they first picked him). Faingaánuku will be back sometime around this time and may be in the equation - or at least hovering over it.

Victor Meldrew

@Mr-Fish

I'd add in JRK at Fullback as a Possible. If his current form continues, he'll move to Probable.

Mr Fish

@Chris-B Moananu and Roe fall into a similar category for me in that there's simply no space for them - I think they're pretty clearly not in the top three. If injuries strike then I think they could both do a good job for the All Blacks but at present, there's just no room.

I mentioned Ennor last week - I think he could find himself in the squad if he's not signed overseas. He put in some great hits tonight and his speed is a massive asset. I'm not sure there'll be room for three outside centre options, so his selection would be dependant on just two out-and-out wingers being named (which is distinctly possible).

JRK is a possibility but I think he's still a year away from getting a call-up.

Someone who I think has very quickly made massive strides this year is Rivez Reihana. He's got a powerful boot on him (probably the strongest of any of the guys playing 10 in NZ, including the incumbents) and always looks fairly composed. His running game isn't bad either, though he hasn't had too many chances to showcase that. With another couple of strong games, I think he will be right in the picture.

We could see a backs selection of:

Halfback - Roigard, Ratima, Hotham/Fakatava
First five - McKenzie (15), Barrett (15), Reihana
Inside centre - Barrett (15), Tupaea (wing)
Outside centre - Proctor, Ioane (wing), Ennor (wing)
Wing - Clarke, Reece
Fullback - Jordan (wing), Love (10/wing)

Possibly room for one more midfielder (ALB if fit, or Havili) or outside back given the squad of 35.

One forward who also potentially put his name into the hat tonight was Te Kamaka Howden.

The Silver Fern

All Blacks 2025