All Blacks 2025

reprobate

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:

For all this talk about loose forwards, people seem to be either ignorant or forgetful about our best loose forward trio in modern times. Kaino, McCaw and Read. From 2010–2015 they were just on another level culminating in two RWC wins, an undefeated season, and they bossed almost every Test they played.

How did they achieve this? With balance across the park but not just covering the others' "weakness". The GOAT was a tireless tackler, hit rucks disrupting and slowing down opposition ball he couldn't thieve. Kaino set the tone physically, but also had underrated hands and footwork - he wasn't just a battering ram. And Read possessed a great skillset, awesome in support, and could absolutely smoke blokes in defence when needed.

Between the three of them they stood 5.76 metres tall.

People attempting to argue we should run out loose forward trios with no players taller than the shortest of the above are on the far left of the bell curve.

It's Test rugby and we need to identify players that have the attributes to play effectively at that level, not audition for a SR barbarians game highlight reel.

You're right re size.
There is a bit of a trap there though, in that we don't have clones of those greats, and you end up trying to shoehorn blokes with different talents into roles which don't suit them. It's important to remember that there are different ways to play the game and the game is played with the players you've got, not the players you wish you had.
Which one of those 3 is Ardie? He doesn't make the number of tackles or hit anywhere near the rucks of McCaw.
We have a couple of guys who are Kaino-like in Finau and Parker, but are not near as good at this stage - and also not as good as other contenders who don't play like Kaino - and they won't be playing alongside McCaw and Read.
Who do we have who plays like Read? A first rate lineout forward who can run and handle with the backs and also smash blokes.

These guys, while greats, weren't perfect either. McCaw was not a great ball runner and did not have great hands. Read was not a workrate player, he was a high impact player. And they had our best ever locking combo in front of them.

As much as people on here will hate it, I think the option might be stack the tight forwards with power players Samisoni, Tosi, Tuipolotou, and add a workrate loosie in EB/LJ/DP to the Savea/Sititi combo.
The other way would be to go workrate tighties: Newell, Taylor, Holland, with Finau/Parker.
The third way would be to go fuck it, we're going to play to our strengths - stay with us if you can - and pick Savea/Sititi/Sotutu with the workrate tighties to start and the impact ones on the bench. There's no team who could match that trio in skill-set. I'd love to see it, but Razor seems pretty conservative to me though, so it'll probably be some shitty halfway house between the first two.

Canes4life

@chucknz said in All Blacks 2025:

@Canes4life Why would Love play ahead of Jordan at 15? I would think that it should be the other way round. The only way I see Jordan at 14 is with Barret at 15

Jordan has a proven track record as a right winger at test level. He's arguably played better there than he does at 15. We've been there and done that with Barrett at 15, why not play Love who's one of the form players in the comp. Barrett is only getting older and personally I'd rather someone at the back that doesn't kick the ball away all game.

I'm not saying they will go with this combo to start with, I'm just saying we might see this combo at some stage in the season.

reprobate

@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:

@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:

@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:

The settled nature of this relatively strong AB side means Razor should throw caution to the wind and try the form options at 6, 13, wings and 15.
It would be crazy if guys like Parker, Lakai, ,Love and Proctor don't get a good run.

Parker maybe, though it's not exactly a huge body of work and it is while being part of the best team in the comp.
Lakai isn't playing 6.
Love isn't playing 15.
Proctor definitely.

(though I do agree with the general sentiment)

Why wouldn’t Love play 15? I wouldn’t be surprised if they tried 11. Clarke 14. Jordan and 15. Love at some stage this year.

I think he's been better at 10 than 15, and he seems ensconced there now for the Canes - which I think is a very good thing. If we want 10s to develop fast, they need to play 10 and anything else is a distraction. He's kinda the 10 vs 15 opposite of Beauden for me. A very good footy player, but not a good fit for 15.
I'd rather have him in the squad as a 10 for development, and give him an easy game or two in that position with the majority of the A team.

Canes4life

@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:

@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:

@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:

@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:

The settled nature of this relatively strong AB side means Razor should throw caution to the wind and try the form options at 6, 13, wings and 15.
It would be crazy if guys like Parker, Lakai, ,Love and Proctor don't get a good run.

Parker maybe, though it's not exactly a huge body of work and it is while being part of the best team in the comp.
Lakai isn't playing 6.
Love isn't playing 15.
Proctor definitely.

(though I do agree with the general sentiment)

Why wouldn’t Love play 15? I wouldn’t be surprised if they tried 11. Clarke 14. Jordan and 15. Love at some stage this year.

I think he's been better at 10 than 15, and he seems ensconced there now for the Canes - which I think is a very good thing. If we want 10s to develop fast, they need to play 10 and anything else is a distraction. He's kinda the 10 vs 15 opposite of Beauden for me. A very good footy player, but not a good fit for 15.
I'd rather have him in the squad as a 10 for development, and give him an easy game or two in that position with the majority of the A team.

I wouldn't mind seeing Love on the bench over Barrett for most of the tests this year. That way he can come on at either 10 or 15 late in the game and slowly get used to the rigors of test rugby in smaller increments. In saying that, it would be cool to see him get a run at 10, knowing that the ABs need to build depth in the most important position.

canefan

While he can still pull out a good performance here and there, BBs best days are behind him. I think he is a liability to the development of the team as we move to 2027, Beaudy is taking time away from potential successors

Canes4life

Would be pretty happy with this team for the first test against France.

Williams
Taylor
Lomax
Barrett
Va'ai
Parker
Savea
Sititi
Roigard
McKenzie
Clarke
Barrett
Proctor
Reece
Jordan
Taukei'aho
De Groot
Tosi
Holland
Lakai
Ratima
Love
Tupaea

MN5

@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:

Would be pretty happy with this team for the first test against France.

Williams

Taylor

Lomax

Barrett

Va'ai

Parker

Savea

Sititi

Roigard

McKenzie

Clarke

Barrett

Proctor

Reece

Jordan

Taukei'aho

De Groot

Tosi

Holland

Lakai

Ratima

Love

Tupaea

Good looking team all up.

Haven't watched a hell of a lot of Super Rugby this year but is Reece really the best on offer ? I joked about his lack of pace last year, has he gotten quicker this season ?

Parker looks the goods from what I've seen ( admittedly fuck all ) probably able to provide more grunt than Papalii, Jacobsen or Blackadder who I note don't make your 23 ( I'm sure one or two will actually get selected by Razor )

I want Tupaea to provide a serious challenge to Jordie, hope he gets some opportunities.

The only surprise is that you picked Proctor over Ioane, no one who reads your posts would have seen that coming

Canes4life

@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:

@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:

Would be pretty happy with this team for the first test against France.

Williams

Taylor

Lomax

Barrett

Va'ai

Parker

Savea

Sititi

Roigard

McKenzie

Clarke

Barrett

Proctor

Reece

Jordan

Taukei'aho

De Groot

Tosi

Holland

Lakai

Ratima

Love

Tupaea

Good looking team all up.

Haven't watched a hell of a lot of Super Rugby this year but is Reece really the best on offer ? I joked about his lack of pace last year, has he gotten quicker this season ?

Parker looks the goods from what I've seen ( admittedly fuck all ) probably able to provide more grunt than Papalii, Jacobsen or Blackadder who I note don't make your 23 ( I'm sure one or two will actually get selected by Razor )

I want Tupaea to provide a serious challenge to Jordie, hope he gets some opportunities.

The only surprise is that you picked Proctor over Ioane, no one who reads your posts would have seen that coming

Reece is the best right wing option we have available IMO. Narawa hasn't hit top form yet, Fihaki could be in the frame because he's a Cantab, Tele'a is heading overseas and Tangitau is injured. Not many options really.

Yep, Proctor is a lock at centre for me. Ioane has had four years of opportunity in the 13 jersey and hasn't developed into the player many saw him being, time to move on. Proctor is obviously a Hurricane, but I'm sure many on here agree to the fact that he deserves an opportunity over a player that hasn't performed to a high standard for almost two years now.

I see both Stuff and the NZ Herald have articles on Billy Proctor today, the drums are definitely beating.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/360701470/how-all-blacks-centre-billy-proctor-turned-hurricanes-season-around

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/hurricanes-v-moana-pasifika-billy-proctor-eyes-all-blacks-return-but-remains-focused-on-super-rugby-pacific/LP4GO22RCNDN5DKTR6ACO3EM7U/

reprobate

@Canes4life It's a good side. Personally I would swap the halfbacks. Ratima has the cleaner pass, whereas Roigard is a running threat and a stronger kicker - both of which I see as more beneficial to us late in the game: more running opportunities open up, and Roigard's kicking can take some pressure off a tiring McKenzie to do everything. Even more so due to combinations if they go for Love over Barrett.
I think swapping the hookers is also worth looking at for similar reasons: grunt early, most accurate throwing late.

Canes4life

@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:

@Canes4life It's a good side. Personally I would swap the halfbacks. Ratima has the cleaner pass, whereas Roigard is a running threat and a stronger kicker - both of which I see as more beneficial to us late in the game: more running opportunities open up, and Roigard's kicking can take some pressure off a tiring McKenzie to do everything. Even more so due to combinations if they go for Love over Barrett.
I think swapping the hookers is also worth looking at for similar reasons: grunt early, most accurate throwing late.

Halfback is an interesting one, we've got two very good 9s and I think both of them will start a number of games this season. I actually think Ratima suits the impact role better, he's done that very well for the Chiefs this season. But horses for courses, I think Roigard will begin the season starting though. Glad we've got at least two top class halfbacks to choose from, the third is anyone's guess right now.

reprobate

@Canes4life I think Roigard will start too, because I don't think Robertson has a good handle on how to use his bench effectively. Both good players as you say, I just see Roigard as a better option if we are chasing the game late because of his running, or if we are defending a lead because of his kicking.
Ratima's advantage is in speed and accuracy of passing and combination with McKenzie, and I think that is most important early when the opposition defensive line is at their fastest and most organised.

SBW1

Pretty sure after next year, our stocks at 10 may improve and hopefully be more like our depth at 9. That is regardless of whether Richie comes back.

brodean

I think this would be an interesting backline.

15. J Barrett
14. W Jordan
13. B Proctor
12. L Fainga'anuku
11. C Clarke
10. R Love
9. C Roigard

Also I think JRK could be a good option at 14. Or DMac at 15 and Jordan at 14 with Love at 10. There's lots of options.

MN5

@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:

I think this would be an interesting backline.

J Barrett

W Jordan

B Proctor
> 12. L Fainga'anuku

C Clarke

R Love

C Roigard

Also I think JRK could be a good option at 14. Or DMac at 15 and Jordan at 14 with Love at 10. There's lots of options.

So he walks back into the team in a different position on the back of no NZ Rugby for a couple of years ?

Bold

canefan

@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:

@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:

I think this would be an interesting backline.

J Barrett

W Jordan

B Proctor
> 12. L Fainga'anuku

C Clarke

R Love

C Roigard

Also I think JRK could be a good option at 14. Or DMac at 15 and Jordan at 14 with Love at 10. There's lots of options.

So he walks back into the team in a different position on the back of no NZ Rugby for a couple of years ?

Bold

Bold is one word you could use. There are others....

MN5

@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:

@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:

@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:

I think this would be an interesting backline.

J Barrett

W Jordan

B Proctor
> 12. L Fainga'anuku

C Clarke

R Love

C Roigard

Also I think JRK could be a good option at 14. Or DMac at 15 and Jordan at 14 with Love at 10. There's lots of options.

So he walks back into the team in a different position on the back of no NZ Rugby for a couple of years ?

Bold

Bold is one word you could use. There are others

I try to be one of the nice guys on here these days

reprobate

@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:

@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:

@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:

I think this would be an interesting backline.

J Barrett

W Jordan

B Proctor
> 12. L Fainga'anuku

C Clarke

R Love

C Roigard

Also I think JRK could be a good option at 14. Or DMac at 15 and Jordan at 14 with Love at 10. There's lots of options.

So he walks back into the team in a different position on the back of no NZ Rugby for a couple of years ?

Bold

Bold is one word you could use. There are others

Nah, it was definitely in bold.

canefan

If he can't come back and rip up trees in the NPC, he shouldn't be a lock for the EOYT either

brodean

@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:

@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:

I think this would be an interesting backline.

J Barrett

W Jordan

B Proctor
> 12. L Fainga'anuku

C Clarke

R Love

C Roigard

Also I think JRK could be a good option at 14. Or DMac at 15 and Jordan at 14 with Love at 10. There's lots of options.

So he walks back into the team in a different position on the back of no NZ Rugby for a couple of years ?

Bold

No.

I said it would be an interesting backline. It's theoretical. It's more to the point that we have some options.

I also expect Fainga'anuku will be rushed back into the squad at Razor's nearest convenience and for him to get special treatment compared to others - similar to Blackadder, Fihaki, Bell etc.

frugby

@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:

@Canes4life I think Roigard will start too, because I don't think Robertson has a good handle on how to use his bench effectively. Both good players as you say, I just see Roigard as a better option if we are chasing the game late because of his running, or if we are defending a lead because of his kicking.
Ratima's advantage is in speed and accuracy of passing and combination with McKenzie, and I think that is most important early when the opposition defensive line is at their fastest and most organised.

Cam Roigard is just an infinitely better player though, who should play 65 minutes. If you don’t think Ratima is the impact man, then pick someone else.

The Silver Fern

All Blacks 2025