All Blacks 2025
-
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
For all this talk about loose forwards, people seem to be either ignorant or forgetful about our best loose forward trio in modern times. Kaino, McCaw and Read. From 2010–2015 they were just on another level culminating in two RWC wins, an undefeated season, and they bossed almost every Test they played.
How did they achieve this? With balance across the park but not just covering the others' "weakness". The GOAT was a tireless tackler, hit rucks disrupting and slowing down opposition ball he couldn't thieve. Kaino set the tone physically, but also had underrated hands and footwork - he wasn't just a battering ram. And Read possessed a great skillset, awesome in support, and could absolutely smoke blokes in defence when needed.
Between the three of them they stood 5.76 metres tall.
People attempting to argue we should run out loose forward trios with no players taller than the shortest of the above are on the far left of the bell curve.
It's Test rugby and we need to identify players that have the attributes to play effectively at that level, not audition for a SR barbarians game highlight reel.
You're right re size.
There is a bit of a trap there though, in that we don't have clones of those greats, and you end up trying to shoehorn blokes with different talents into roles which don't suit them. It's important to remember that there are different ways to play the game and the game is played with the players you've got, not the players you wish you had.
Which one of those 3 is Ardie? He doesn't make the number of tackles or hit anywhere near the rucks of McCaw.
We have a couple of guys who are Kaino-like in Finau and Parker, but are not near as good at this stage - and also not as good as other contenders who don't play like Kaino - and they won't be playing alongside McCaw and Read.
Who do we have who plays like Read? A first rate lineout forward who can run and handle with the backs and also smash blokes.These guys, while greats, weren't perfect either. McCaw was not a great ball runner and did not have great hands. Read was not a workrate player, he was a high impact player. And they had our best ever locking combo in front of them.
As much as people on here will hate it, I think the option might be stack the tight forwards with power players Samisoni, Tosi, Tuipolotou, and add a workrate loosie in EB/LJ/DP to the Savea/Sititi combo.
The other way would be to go workrate tighties: Newell, Taylor, Holland, with Finau/Parker.
The third way would be to go fuck it, we're going to play to our strengths - stay with us if you can - and pick Savea/Sititi/Sotutu with the workrate tighties to start and the impact ones on the bench. There's no team who could match that trio in skill-set. I'd love to see it, but Razor seems pretty conservative to me though, so it'll probably be some shitty halfway house between the first two.I'm less concerned with who as to what. I believe that we need to determine which players have certain attributes that align with what McCaw, Kaino and Read brought as a trio and seek the players the best replicate that skillset. So that doesn't mean our number 8 has to be a Read, but somewhere in that trio Read's skillset is catered for.
Our tighties should be doing power work anyway, so it's not acceptable to me to suggest 80% of them should concentrate on that as an excuse to roll out a midget backrow as some are calling for. A SSL backrow is going to only look good against the likes of Japan.
And there's little opportunity to have a paradigm shift in running the opposition off their feet. It's not the early 2000's - the top five ranked Test teams are fit, and use the bench competently the vast majority of the time.
I think its pretty clear that Razor and co have zero interest in trying to replicate the AB's best loose trio ever.
Unfortunately I agree, and it's not clear to me exactly what they're trying to achieve based on their selections last year.
But then I'm not a rugby savant...
-
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
For all this talk about loose forwards, people seem to be either ignorant or forgetful about our best loose forward trio in modern times. Kaino, McCaw and Read. From 2010–2015 they were just on another level culminating in two RWC wins, an undefeated season, and they bossed almost every Test they played.
How did they achieve this? With balance across the park but not just covering the others' "weakness". The GOAT was a tireless tackler, hit rucks disrupting and slowing down opposition ball he couldn't thieve. Kaino set the tone physically, but also had underrated hands and footwork - he wasn't just a battering ram. And Read possessed a great skillset, awesome in support, and could absolutely smoke blokes in defence when needed.
Between the three of them they stood 5.76 metres tall.
People attempting to argue we should run out loose forward trios with no players taller than the shortest of the above are on the far left of the bell curve.
It's Test rugby and we need to identify players that have the attributes to play effectively at that level, not audition for a SR barbarians game highlight reel.
You're right re size.
There is a bit of a trap there though, in that we don't have clones of those greats, and you end up trying to shoehorn blokes with different talents into roles which don't suit them. It's important to remember that there are different ways to play the game and the game is played with the players you've got, not the players you wish you had.
Which one of those 3 is Ardie? He doesn't make the number of tackles or hit anywhere near the rucks of McCaw.
We have a couple of guys who are Kaino-like in Finau and Parker, but are not near as good at this stage - and also not as good as other contenders who don't play like Kaino - and they won't be playing alongside McCaw and Read.
Who do we have who plays like Read? A first rate lineout forward who can run and handle with the backs and also smash blokes.These guys, while greats, weren't perfect either. McCaw was not a great ball runner and did not have great hands. Read was not a workrate player, he was a high impact player. And they had our best ever locking combo in front of them.
As much as people on here will hate it, I think the option might be stack the tight forwards with power players Samisoni, Tosi, Tuipolotou, and add a workrate loosie in EB/LJ/DP to the Savea/Sititi combo.
The other way would be to go workrate tighties: Newell, Taylor, Holland, with Finau/Parker.
The third way would be to go fuck it, we're going to play to our strengths - stay with us if you can - and pick Savea/Sititi/Sotutu with the workrate tighties to start and the impact ones on the bench. There's no team who could match that trio in skill-set. I'd love to see it, but Razor seems pretty conservative to me though, so it'll probably be some shitty halfway house between the first two.I'm less concerned with who as to what. I believe that we need to determine which players have certain attributes that align with what McCaw, Kaino and Read brought as a trio and seek the players the best replicate that skillset. So that doesn't mean our number 8 has to be a Read, but somewhere in that trio Read's skillset is catered for.
Our tighties should be doing power work anyway, so it's not acceptable to me to suggest 80% of them should concentrate on that as an excuse to roll out a midget backrow as some are calling for. A SSL backrow is going to only look good against the likes of Japan.
And there's little opportunity to have a paradigm shift in running the opposition off their feet. It's not the early 2000's - the top five ranked Test teams are fit, and use the bench competently the vast majority of the time.
I think its pretty clear that Razor and co have zero interest in trying to replicate the AB's best loose trio ever.
Unfortunately I agree, and it's not clear to me exactly what they're trying to achieve based on their selections last year.
But then I'm not a rugby savant...
They are trying to go back to the style we had between 2019 and mid 2022. Lots of width, and trying to run them off their feet. I thought we clearly improved from mid 2022 when we narrowed the attack and Joe Schmidt simplified things.
They seem to be trying to replicate the Crusaders style of play in the test arena.
-
As others have pointed out, I think the only thing that type of gameplan achieved was exhausting our tight forwards.
-
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life I think Roigard will start too, because I don't think Robertson has a good handle on how to use his bench effectively. Both good players as you say, I just see Roigard as a better option if we are chasing the game late because of his running, or if we are defending a lead because of his kicking.
Ratima's advantage is in speed and accuracy of passing and combination with McKenzie, and I think that is most important early when the opposition defensive line is at their fastest and most organised.Cam Roigard is just an infinitely better player though, who should play 65 minutes. If you don’t think Ratima is the impact man, then pick someone else.
I don't think Ratima is the impact man, that's why I'd pick someone else: Cam.
The saffas have given us a lesson in bench players not necessarily being worse than starters for years now.From what I've seen the Saffas are basically using heavy rotation of their starting line up to keep players fresh. Their players often get rotated at the 35 to 50 mark compared to ours at 60 - 70. The use of our bench was often poor last year. The mindset is completely different.
It makes sense to give a guy a bit more time to get going, and sub the starter off just before his production declines. As long as the bench players can be as impactful as the guy that's coming off....
-
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
For all this talk about loose forwards, people seem to be either ignorant or forgetful about our best loose forward trio in modern times. Kaino, McCaw and Read. From 2010–2015 they were just on another level culminating in two RWC wins, an undefeated season, and they bossed almost every Test they played.
How did they achieve this? With balance across the park but not just covering the others' "weakness". The GOAT was a tireless tackler, hit rucks disrupting and slowing down opposition ball he couldn't thieve. Kaino set the tone physically, but also had underrated hands and footwork - he wasn't just a battering ram. And Read possessed a great skillset, awesome in support, and could absolutely smoke blokes in defence when needed.
Between the three of them they stood 5.76 metres tall.
People attempting to argue we should run out loose forward trios with no players taller than the shortest of the above are on the far left of the bell curve.
It's Test rugby and we need to identify players that have the attributes to play effectively at that level, not audition for a SR barbarians game highlight reel.
You're right re size.
There is a bit of a trap there though, in that we don't have clones of those greats, and you end up trying to shoehorn blokes with different talents into roles which don't suit them. It's important to remember that there are different ways to play the game and the game is played with the players you've got, not the players you wish you had.
Which one of those 3 is Ardie? He doesn't make the number of tackles or hit anywhere near the rucks of McCaw.
We have a couple of guys who are Kaino-like in Finau and Parker, but are not near as good at this stage - and also not as good as other contenders who don't play like Kaino - and they won't be playing alongside McCaw and Read.
Who do we have who plays like Read? A first rate lineout forward who can run and handle with the backs and also smash blokes.These guys, while greats, weren't perfect either. McCaw was not a great ball runner and did not have great hands. Read was not a workrate player, he was a high impact player. And they had our best ever locking combo in front of them.
As much as people on here will hate it, I think the option might be stack the tight forwards with power players Samisoni, Tosi, Tuipolotou, and add a workrate loosie in EB/LJ/DP to the Savea/Sititi combo.
The other way would be to go workrate tighties: Newell, Taylor, Holland, with Finau/Parker.
The third way would be to go fuck it, we're going to play to our strengths - stay with us if you can - and pick Savea/Sititi/Sotutu with the workrate tighties to start and the impact ones on the bench. There's no team who could match that trio in skill-set. I'd love to see it, but Razor seems pretty conservative to me though, so it'll probably be some shitty halfway house between the first two.I'm less concerned with who as to what. I believe that we need to determine which players have certain attributes that align with what McCaw, Kaino and Read brought as a trio and seek the players the best replicate that skillset. So that doesn't mean our number 8 has to be a Read, but somewhere in that trio Read's skillset is catered for.
Our tighties should be doing power work anyway, so it's not acceptable to me to suggest 80% of them should concentrate on that as an excuse to roll out a midget backrow as some are calling for. A SSL backrow is going to only look good against the likes of Japan.
And there's little opportunity to have a paradigm shift in running the opposition off their feet. It's not the early 2000's - the top five ranked Test teams are fit, and use the bench competently the vast majority of the time.
I think its pretty clear that Razor and co have zero interest in trying to replicate the AB's best loose trio ever.
Unfortunately I agree, and it's not clear to me exactly what they're trying to achieve based on their selections last year.
But then I'm not a rugby savant...
They are trying to go back to the style we had between 2019 and mid 2022. Lots of width, and trying to run them off their feet. I thought we clearly improved from mid 2022 when we narrowed the attack and Joe Schmidt simplified things.
They seem to be trying to replicate the Crusaders style of play in the test arena.
What? Like depend on your set piece, play pragmatically, defense-oriented, etc. Jeez, I don't know what Crusaders you are talking about. Blackadder coached era?
-
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life I think Roigard will start too, because I don't think Robertson has a good handle on how to use his bench effectively. Both good players as you say, I just see Roigard as a better option if we are chasing the game late because of his running, or if we are defending a lead because of his kicking.
Ratima's advantage is in speed and accuracy of passing and combination with McKenzie, and I think that is most important early when the opposition defensive line is at their fastest and most organised.Cam Roigard is just an infinitely better player though, who should play 65 minutes. If you don’t think Ratima is the impact man, then pick someone else.
I don't think Ratima is the impact man, that's why I'd pick someone else: Cam.
The saffas have given us a lesson in bench players not necessarily being worse than starters for years now.From what I've seen the Saffas are basically using heavy rotation of their starting line up to keep players fresh. Their players often get rotated at the 35 to 50 mark compared to ours at 60 - 70. The use of our bench was often poor last year. The mindset is completely different.
Exactly this. There is no reason our subs have to come on at 65 minutes.
Funnily enough Roigard's whole overblown reputation on here - where not selecting him cost us the world cup - is based on him coming off the bench in one game in the 61st minute. -
I know this has been dismissed by some but with Proctor the best 13 by a country mile, what is stopping Reiko from being on the wing? He still would be one of NZs premier attack weapons and has much-needed experience. I can't see the downsides.
-
Also probably one of the few who could keep up with that feisty young French winger bastard..
-
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks 2025:
I know this has been dismissed by some but with Proctor the best 13 by a country mile, what is stopping Reiko from being on the wing? He still would be one of NZs premier attack weapons and has much-needed experience. I can't see the downsides.
This is exactly what I've said from the beginning. Why not just shift him back out to the wing? You could easily have him on the right wing.
-
@Canes4life Think he's said many times before, wants to play 13, not wing, it's been 5 years, I would trust him more than Proctor and Ennor or others come Test time, completely different level, been there and done it and still world class, and same with Jordie at 12, , that's the way I see it.
-
@hikastags said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 He's been playing midfield all year in the Top14 and been the best midfielder in the competition.
I thought Jordie was ?
-
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@hikastags said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 He's been playing midfield all year in the Top14 and been the best midfielder in the competition.
I thought Jordie was ?
Jordie plays in URC?
-
There seems to be an assumption lately that Roigard and Ratima are fighting it out for starter and bench. Hotham will be very much in the mix and it would not surprise me in the slightest if he is the bench half.
-
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
I think its pretty clear that Razor and co have zero interest in trying to replicate the AB's best loose trio ever.
Michael Jones, Alan Whetton and Zinzan Brooke say hi.
-
@george33 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life Think he's said many times before, wants to play 13, not wing, it's been 5 years, I would trust him more than Proctor and Ennor or others come Test time, completely different level, been there and done it and still world class, and same with Jordie at 12, , that's the way I see it.
So by that logic, we won’t get to see Proctor start at 13 until Ioane leaves next year?
Right now based off form I would trust Proctor over Ioane, without a doubt. Ioane being world class is a stretch. You need to get these guys with less experience in at some point. No better time than now, 2 years away from a World Cup.
-
@ARHS said in All Blacks 2025:
Not sure why Christie is so vilified on here.
Slow service
Inconsistent passer
Poor option taker
Slow option taker
Struggles with messy ball
Has poor feel for the position
High error rate
Tries to do too muchThere's a few reasons
-
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@ARHS said in All Blacks 2025:
Not sure why Christie is so vilified on here.
Slow service
Inconsistent passer
Poor option taker
Slow option taker
Struggles with messy ball
Has poor feel for the position
High error rate
Tries to do too muchThere's a few reasons
Ginger
