AB Blindside - past, present & future

[canefan]

@Frank said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

@nostrildamus said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

do they consider how his injury rate affects the loosie combo?

No. No they don't.

That was pretty clear when they used tests last year to build Blackadder back into form.

I don't share your pessimism.
Primarily because Blackadder's will get injured
Secondly, because a blind man can see Parker is stronger in contact and this frees up Sititi and Savea to do their thing.

This year we will see Razor's true colours. More of the same? We will be further behind in preparation for 2027

[canefan]

@Frank said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

@nostrildamus said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

do they consider how his injury rate affects the loosie combo?

No. No they don't.

That was pretty clear when they used tests last year to build Blackadder back into form.

I don't share your pessimism.
Primarily because Blackadder's will get injured
Secondly, because a blind man can see Parker is stronger in contact and this frees up Sititi and Savea to do their thing.
Thirdly because Parker has just turned 25 and EB is 30

But Razor

[brodean]

@Frank said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

@nostrildamus said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

do they consider how his injury rate affects the loosie combo?

No. No they don't.

That was pretty clear when they used tests last year to build Blackadder back into form.

I don't share your pessimism.
Primarily because Blackadder's will get injured
Secondly, because a blind man can see Parker is stronger in contact and this frees up Sititi and Savea to do their thing.
Thirdly because Parker has just turned 25 and EB is 30

Yeah the question is if when he will get injured. Will it be tonight or will it be 4 tests in to the test season?

Also if they have Savea and Sititi at 7 and 8 they might decide they want a player who hits a lot rucks which isn't Parker.

[Windows97]

@Frank said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

Secondly, because a blind man can see Parker is stronger in contact and this frees up Sititi and Savea to do their thing.

That would be a dream, I'd even be happy with Finau, Savea, Sititi combo. Please! Can we break this endless cycle of 7.5's in the loose forward trio!!

[brodean]

@Windows97 said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

@Frank said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

Secondly, because a blind man can see Parker is stronger in contact and this frees up Sititi and Savea to do their thing.

That would be a dream, I'd even be happy with Finau, Savea, Sititi combo. Please! Can we break this endless cycle of 7.5's in the loose forward trio!!

Well wasn't that the combo named to start in the last French test?

[Windows97]

@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

@Windows97 said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

@Frank said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

Secondly, because a blind man can see Parker is stronger in contact and this frees up Sititi and Savea to do their thing.

That would be a dream, I'd even be happy with Finau, Savea, Sititi combo. Please! Can we break this endless cycle of 7.5's in the loose forward trio!!

Well wasn't that the combo named to start in the last French test?

It was, they finally shifted Savea to 7 and put Sititi at 8.

However check the unavaliable due to injury list...

Unavailable due to injury: Sam Cane (concussion), Mark Tele’a (hand), Sam Darry (knee), Ethan Blackadder (calf), Luke Jacobson (fractured thumb) and Dalton Papali'i (upper hamstring).

[reprobate]

@Windows97 said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

@Frank said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

Secondly, because a blind man can see Parker is stronger in contact and this frees up Sititi and Savea to do their thing.

That would be a dream, I'd even be happy with Finau, Savea, Sititi combo. Please! Can we break this endless cycle of 7.5's in the loose forward trio!!

If Ardie Savea (as world player of the year in 8 and super player of the year in 7) isn't 7.5, I don't know what is. I'd also argue Sititi is about 7.75.
It's the bloody 6.5s that are the problem.

[Mauss]

@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

Finau is highly effective at attacking rucks and Parker in defensive rucks.

The only thing I'd add to this comparison is that it matters where those attacking and defensive rucks are cleaned.

While I do think Finau is a more than adequate cleaner (the occasional sloppy technique notwithstanding), his percentages are aided by the fact that most of his cleaning work is on the edge. Cleans up the middle of the field, where most of the forwards are concentrated, demand more of the cleaner.

[nostrildamus]

I'm confused how the Chiefs use them if they are going for the same blindside position in the ABs. Who is better in lineouts and a consistently more dominant and effective-tackling 6? Is Parker used more as a utility or an 8 and Finau the main 6 or has Finau gone into lock or been injured? I am assuming Chiefs fans have a pretty good idea who has been the more effective 6.

[nostrildamus]

@Mauss said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

Finau is highly effective at attacking rucks and Parker in defensive rucks.

The only thing I'd add to this comparison is that it matters where those attacking and defensive rucks are cleaned.

While I do think Finau is a more than adequate cleaner (the occasional sloppy technique notwithstanding), his percentages are aided by the fact that most of his cleaning work is on the edge. Cleans up the middle of the field, where most of the forwards are concentrated, demand more of the cleaner.

I'm guessing at AB level the defensive side is the more important one at 6 if they pick Ardie and Wallace at 7 and 8.

[Mauss]

@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

There is ingrained habits but your post assumes too much of the players. Macdonald and Foster wanted to play wider games and Akira Ioane obliged. When Vern came along and wanted to keep it close Akira Ioane immediately followed the game pattern and stuck to it all year. So in the case of Akira Ioane I think it shows that clearly they were not ingrained habits.

Also Fifita when he went back to lock for the Canes played a very tight game and was one of the most physical players in the comp. He was also one of the most physical players in the stodgy NH.

My point is that I think it's better for coaches to develop the naturally built up game of a player rather than make them conform to preconceived requirements.

Yes, Akira Ioane was able to develop a tighter style by playing blindside (already starting in 2020, due to him clearly not being wanted as a number 8 by the AB selectors). But what did it actually lead to? Sure, he was a crucial factor in the Blues winning SR. But he made the change for the ABs. And now he's 30 years old, a prime age for a blindside, and he's playing in the second division of Japanese Rugby. Playing as a number 8, by the way. Doesn't seem like an investment with the desired pay off.

So yes, players can change, according to coaching demands. But I'd argue that it very rarely leads to a player developing to the fullest of his abilities.

On Fifita, we'll just have to agree to disagree, as we clearly have very different memories of how he played. I'd agree that he's improved with age. I still wouldn't consider him to be the enforcer within the Scarlets' pack, though, I'd give that to Lousi.

[Bones]

Kellow looks like he could also be a utility. Just saying.

[reprobate]

@Mauss said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

There is ingrained habits but your post assumes too much of the players. Macdonald and Foster wanted to play wider games and Akira Ioane obliged. When Vern came along and wanted to keep it close Akira Ioane immediately followed the game pattern and stuck to it all year. So in the case of Akira Ioane I think it shows that clearly they were not ingrained habits.

Also Fifita when he went back to lock for the Canes played a very tight game and was one of the most physical players in the comp. He was also one of the most physical players in the stodgy NH.

My point is that I think it's better for coaches to develop the naturally built up game of a player rather than make them conform to preconceived requirements.

Some players can adapt and make major changes to their game, but it's certainly not the majority. Kaino and McCaw I think both changed the way they played significantly - Kaino before becoming a fixture for the ABs, and McCaw during his tenure. Michael Jones before those guys.
I agree that playing to a guy's strengths is almost always going to go better than making them play to their weaknesses. That's the tricky thing about building a team, putting all the strengths and weaknesses together such that overall the mix (and the roles given) lead to success - which is why you're bang-on with the coaches and their square peg / round hole weird use of different style players. I think it also makes looking at any position in isolation tricky - or even the loose trio without the contribution of the tighties (as per e.g. your post a while back on the different styles of play from the fringe prop candidates) being taken into account. In the current team, I guess the assumption is Lomax/Taylor/Williams/Barrett/Vaai/Savea/Sititi + who? They do lack an enforcer. They do lack a lineout target. They also lack a volume ruck-hitter.

[brodean]

@Mauss said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

There is ingrained habits but your post assumes too much of the players. Macdonald and Foster wanted to play wider games and Akira Ioane obliged. When Vern came along and wanted to keep it close Akira Ioane immediately followed the game pattern and stuck to it all year. So in the case of Akira Ioane I think it shows that clearly they were not ingrained habits.

Also Fifita when he went back to lock for the Canes played a very tight game and was one of the most physical players in the comp. He was also one of the most physical players in the stodgy NH.

My point is that I think it's better for coaches to develop the naturally built up game of a player rather than make them conform to preconceived requirements.

Yes, Akira Ioane was able to develop a tighter style by playing blindside (already starting in 2020, due to him clearly not being wanted as a number 8 by the AB selectors). But what did it actually lead to? Sure, he was a crucial factor in the Blues winning SR. But he made the change for the ABs. And now he's 30 years old, a prime age for a blindside, and he's playing in the second division of Japanese Rugby. Playing as a number 8, by the way. Doesn't seem like an investment with the desired pay off.

So yes, players can change, according to coaching demands. But I'd argue that it very rarely leads to a player developing to the fullest of his abilities.

On Fifita, we'll just have to agree to disagree, as we clearly have very different memories of how he played. I'd agree that he's improved with age. I still wouldn't consider him to be the enforcer within the Scarlets' pack, though, I'd give that to Lousi.

Yeah I disagree with the implication of your comment. Akira Ioane has always had very good tight skills with cleaning, pick and close in defence. As someone pointed out he's left a massive hole in the Blues.

[brodean]

@Mauss said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

Finau is highly effective at attacking rucks and Parker in defensive rucks.

The only thing I'd add to this comparison is that it matters where those attacking and defensive rucks are cleaned.

While I do think Finau is a more than adequate cleaner (the occasional sloppy technique notwithstanding), his percentages are aided by the fact that most of his cleaning work is on the edge. Cleans up the middle of the field, where most of the forwards are concentrated, demand more of the cleaner.

Disagree again. Finau is a good cleaner. He goes in low and is powerful.

[antipodean]

@Frank said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

@nostrildamus said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

do they consider how his injury rate affects the loosie combo?

No. No they don't.

That was pretty clear when they used tests last year to build Blackadder back into form.

I don't share your pessimism.
Primarily because Blackadder's will get injured
Secondly, because a blind man can see Parker is stronger in contact and this frees up Sititi and Savea to do their thing.
Thirdly because Parker has just turned 25 and EB is 30

That just means Parker can be overlooked for a RWC cycle.

[Mauss]

@reprobate said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

In the current team, I guess the assumption is Lomax/Taylor/Williams/Barrett/Vaai/Savea/Sititi + who? They do lack an enforcer. They do lack a lineout target. They also lack a volume ruck-hitter.

You’re right in what they’re missing isn’t that mysterious. But it does look like those qualities aren’t that commonly found together, at least to me.

If you’d just ask your six to be a solid lineout operator while hitting plenty of rucks, players like Delany and Ah Kuoi (both AB XV) seem like excellent candidates. But I wouldn’t necessarily see them as enforcers (not to mention the lack of an attacking game). Someone like Papali’i cleans a huge number of rucks but he’s not much of a lineout target (at least, not an experienced one) nor does he make a lot of dominant tackles.

Do you see any standout candidates who possess these characteristics (enforcer, lineout, rucks)? Every choice does seem like a potentially flawed one, whether it's because of (a lack of) size, work rate or aggression.

[reprobate]

@Mauss said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

@reprobate said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:

In the current team, I guess the assumption is Lomax/Taylor/Williams/Barrett/Vaai/Savea/Sititi + who? They do lack an enforcer. They do lack a lineout target. They also lack a volume ruck-hitter.

You’re right in what they’re missing isn’t that mysterious. But it does look like those qualities aren’t that commonly found together, at least to me.

If you’d just ask your six to be a solid lineout operator while hitting plenty of rucks, players like Delany and Ah Kuoi (both AB XV) seem like excellent candidates. But I wouldn’t necessarily see them as enforcers (not to mention the lack of an attacking game). Someone like Papali’i cleans a huge number of rucks but he’s not much of a lineout target (at least, not an experienced one) nor does he make a lot of dominant tackles.

Do you see any standout candidates who possess these characteristics (enforcer, lineout, rucks)? Every choice does seem like a potentially flawed one, whether it's because of (a lack of) size, work rate or aggression.

Nah, there's nobody who can do it all right now. I think the Chiefs approach of using two (as you highlight) quite different players in Parker and Finau to play different roles and basically 40 minutes each would be an interesting one for the ABs (and/or horses for courses with the opposition).
I think the lack of that one player does beg the question: if nobody fits the gap that exists, would it be better to move some of the other pieces to create a different shaped gap? (not necessarily just loosies)

[taniwharugby]

I think a player of Parkers stature is exactly what the ABs are missing, however something I've long felt was an issue in his game is lacking that little bit of aggression, and as some of those stats show, he isn't quite there in terms of workrate on both sides, although when you compare him and Finau, I guess that's how the Chiefs want him to play.

Talented player and ticks alot of boxes in terms of what the AB pack needs, so who knows...

[Bones]

@taniwharugby it's odd, I've not really noticed him until this season, where his aggression has seemed to the fore.