2025 All Blacks v France series
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@Bones said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Is Jordan still as quick as he used to be?
He's at that magical age where All Black wingers degrade.
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@nonpartizan said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
On the subject of Chiefs kicking game - in the final one thing they lacked was a big boot to get them out of their 22, especially in the 2nd half. It might have been their Achilles heel.
Ratima's kicks were puny tbh and Mackenzie was not getting much distance on the ball either.Ratima's kicks were terrible throughout. He was hooking the box kicks so far infield they were basically giving ideal attacking position to the Crusaders and completely uncontested.
The other thing which was really poor was the back three's positioning: their kicking was not so much the issue in itself, as the time they took to get the ball, being out of position, letting it bounce and roll - so that they were kicking under pressure and from further back than they should have been.@reprobate said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@nonpartizan said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
On the subject of Chiefs kicking game - in the final one thing they lacked was a big boot to get them out of their 22, especially in the 2nd half. It might have been their Achilles heel.
Ratima's kicks were puny tbh and Mackenzie was not getting much distance on the ball either.Ratima's kicks were terrible throughout. He was hooking the box kicks so far infield they were basically giving ideal attacking position to the Crusaders and completely uncontested.
The other thing which was really poor was the back three's positioning: their kicking was not so much the issue in itself, as the time they took to get the ball, being out of position, letting it bounce and roll - so that they were kicking under pressure and from further back than they should have been.I hadn't thought about that but you are dead right. The one that springs to mind was when Carter retrieved a bouncing ball in the first half, was swarmed by Reece and the Crusaders ended up getting a penalty - iirc.
That would have been avoided if he was better positioned.
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@brodean said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Jordan is our most talented outside back but as an overall rugby player he isn't close to Cullen or Smith or young BB off the bench. He's probably not as good as peak Israel Dagg either.
Peak Jordan is darn good.
Peak Dagg didn't happen nearly as often.
And overall, Dagg scored just 138 points in 66 games.
Jordan, 190 points in 41 games. At age 27.
https://stats.allblacks.com/all-players/profile/Israel-Dagg-AB-1101
https://stats.allblacks.com/all-players/profile/Will-Jordan-AB-1191There's little point comparing Dagg to Cullen because he's a GOAT.
Or to Ben Smith, because he's one of my all-time favourite accountants.@nostrildamus said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@brodean said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Peak Dagg didn't happen nearly as often.Happened enough to win an RWC.
Also Dagg was much more of a playmaker looking to set up others from fullback where as Jordan has spent most of his AB career on the wing.
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Ok if we are judging by the weekend, Will Jordan is the All Black fullback.
I know Jordan will be fb. Just my opinion it should be Jordie.
I think the All Blacks are far more dynamic when they have a big ball-running 12 which takes a boat load of pressure off whoever the 10 is. The South Africans lick their lips at Jordie playing 12. He's too tall to be used as a crash-ball merchant and the big Saffas nail him like he's made of paper.
I certainly think there is value in this kind of configuration:
12. Tavatavanawai/Tupaea
14. Jordan
15. Jordie Barrett -
@hikastags so he’s played one test against the French at fullback, and yes he didn’t play well. But I think he’s growing in confidence and cutting down the errors. Another season and hopefully getting more comfortable with the wingers too.
The Aussies would target CC also and exposed some of the limitations in his defensive game. But he was persisted with for good reason.
He had the same issues with turnovers against SA last year too.
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@hikastags said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Ok if we are judging by the weekend, Will Jordan is the All Black fullback.
I know Jordan will be fb. Just my opinion it should be Jordie.
I think the All Blacks are far more dynamic when they have a big ball-running 12 which takes a boat load of pressure off whoever the 10 is. The South Africans lick their lips at Jordie playing 12. He's too tall to be used as a crash-ball merchant and the big Saffas nail him like he's made of paper.
Indeed. Has never stood out vs De Allende or Esterhuizen and PSDT hit him so hard and often in the WC final I can only assume he owed him some money.
@MN5 said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@hikastags said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Ok if we are judging by the weekend, Will Jordan is the All Black fullback.
I know Jordan will be fb. Just my opinion it should be Jordie.
I think the All Blacks are far more dynamic when they have a big ball-running 12 which takes a boat load of pressure off whoever the 10 is. The South Africans lick their lips at Jordie playing 12. He's too tall to be used as a crash-ball merchant and the big Saffas nail him like he's made of paper.
Indeed. Has never stood out vs De Allende or Esterhuizen and PSDT hit him so hard and often in the WC final I can only assume he owed him some money.
I don't think you can really fault Jordie in the RWC final considering he was having to cover loose forward on top of his 12 duties.
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I certainly think there is value in this kind of configuration:
12. Tavatavanawai/Tupaea
14. Jordan
15. Jordie Barrett@brodean said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
I certainly think there is value in this kind of configuration:
- Tavatavanawai/Tupaea
- Jordan
- Jordie Barrett
....what? has jordan played 13 before? the last time we saw Jordie on the wing was not pretty
it would be peak AB selectors to select loads of midfielders....and then play one of the names outside back in midfield...and then one of the midfielders on the win
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@brodean said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
I certainly think there is value in this kind of configuration:
- Tavatavanawai/Tupaea
- Jordan
- Jordie Barrett
....what? has jordan played 13 before? the last time we saw Jordie on the wing was not pretty
it would be peak AB selectors to select loads of midfielders....and then play one of the names outside back in midfield...and then one of the midfielders on the win
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Forum auto formatting. Wrapping it in code tags.
12. Tavatavanawai/Tupaea 14. Jordan 15. Jordie Barrett -
Jordie's not quick, and he's not elusive. If most people could build a fullback in a lab, I reckon they'd build Christian Cullen - and Jordie most certainly isn't that.
Also it was the Chiefs back 3 who looked silly in what was largely a kicking battle on the weekend, not Will Jordan - he was dominant.Quick enough. Do you enjoy watching a 6ft 5 Jordie cart it up as a crash-ball 12 where the South Africans chew him up like nothing?
And no, it would be Jordie considering the kicking game in today's game.
@hikastags said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Jordie's not quick, and he's not elusive. If most people could build a fullback in a lab, I reckon they'd build Christian Cullen - and Jordie most certainly isn't that.
Also it was the Chiefs back 3 who looked silly in what was largely a kicking battle on the weekend, not Will Jordan - he was dominant.Quick enough. Do you enjoy watching a 6ft 5 Jordie cart it up as a crash-ball 12 where the South Africans chew him up like nothing?
And no, it would be Jordie considering the kicking game in today's game.
We tried Jordie at fullback, we rightly moved him to 12.
If he wasn't a Barrett I'd say that Tupaea would have his spot at 12, and he'd likely be on the bench, especially after a rather quiet test year last year (regardless of what he's been doing in NH rugby). But he's Barrett so likely Quinn is watching from the sidelines and we all complain that we have a midfield that can't cart the ball in traffic despite the fact one of them is built like a lock.
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@hikastags said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Jordie's not quick, and he's not elusive. If most people could build a fullback in a lab, I reckon they'd build Christian Cullen - and Jordie most certainly isn't that.
Also it was the Chiefs back 3 who looked silly in what was largely a kicking battle on the weekend, not Will Jordan - he was dominant.Quick enough. Do you enjoy watching a 6ft 5 Jordie cart it up as a crash-ball 12 where the South Africans chew him up like nothing?
And no, it would be Jordie considering the kicking game in today's game.
We tried Jordie at fullback, we rightly moved him to 12.
If he wasn't a Barrett I'd say that Tupaea would have his spot at 12, and he'd likely be on the bench, especially after a rather quiet test year last year (regardless of what he's been doing in NH rugby). But he's Barrett so likely Quinn is watching from the sidelines and we all complain that we have a midfield that can't cart the ball in traffic despite the fact one of them is built like a lock.
@Nepia said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@hikastags said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Jordie's not quick, and he's not elusive. If most people could build a fullback in a lab, I reckon they'd build Christian Cullen - and Jordie most certainly isn't that.
Also it was the Chiefs back 3 who looked silly in what was largely a kicking battle on the weekend, not Will Jordan - he was dominant.Quick enough. Do you enjoy watching a 6ft 5 Jordie cart it up as a crash-ball 12 where the South Africans chew him up like nothing?
And no, it would be Jordie considering the kicking game in today's game.
We tried Jordie at fullback, we rightly moved him to 12.
If he wasn't a Barrett I'd say that Tupaea would have his spot at 12, and he'd likely be on the bench, especially after a rather quiet test year last year (regardless of what he's been doing in NH rugby). But he's Barrett so likely Quinn is watching from the sidelines and we all complain that we have a midfield that can't cart the ball in traffic despite the fact one of them is built like a lock.
was that though also a bit because we were weak in midfield? we were getting found out with the rush defence and thought a big ball player might help
@brodean said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Forum auto formatting. Wrapping it in code tags.
12. Tavatavanawai/Tupaea 14. Jordan 15. Jordie Barrettout, thats fine, im not against it
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@akan004 I don't know why the media bother asking Scott a single question. Every answer is meaningless word salad.
And tbh it looks like that's how he coaches too when you see what he's managed to do with our backline.
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I certainly think there is value in this kind of configuration:
12. Tavatavanawai/Tupaea
14. Jordan
15. Jordie Barrett@brodean said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
I certainly think there is value in this kind of configuration:
12. Tavatavanawai/Tupaea
14. Jordan
15. Jordie BarrettAgree.
I'd add Leicester in the mix once he's back too. He's been unbelievable in the Top14 playing midfield.
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@Nepia said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@hikastags said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Jordie's not quick, and he's not elusive. If most people could build a fullback in a lab, I reckon they'd build Christian Cullen - and Jordie most certainly isn't that.
Also it was the Chiefs back 3 who looked silly in what was largely a kicking battle on the weekend, not Will Jordan - he was dominant.Quick enough. Do you enjoy watching a 6ft 5 Jordie cart it up as a crash-ball 12 where the South Africans chew him up like nothing?
And no, it would be Jordie considering the kicking game in today's game.
We tried Jordie at fullback, we rightly moved him to 12.
If he wasn't a Barrett I'd say that Tupaea would have his spot at 12, and he'd likely be on the bench, especially after a rather quiet test year last year (regardless of what he's been doing in NH rugby). But he's Barrett so likely Quinn is watching from the sidelines and we all complain that we have a midfield that can't cart the ball in traffic despite the fact one of them is built like a lock.
was that though also a bit because we were weak in midfield? we were getting found out with the rush defence and thought a big ball player might help
@brodean said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Forum auto formatting. Wrapping it in code tags.
12. Tavatavanawai/Tupaea 14. Jordan 15. Jordie Barrettout, thats fine, im not against it
@Kiwiwomble said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@Nepia said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@hikastags said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Jordie's not quick, and he's not elusive. If most people could build a fullback in a lab, I reckon they'd build Christian Cullen - and Jordie most certainly isn't that.
Also it was the Chiefs back 3 who looked silly in what was largely a kicking battle on the weekend, not Will Jordan - he was dominant.Quick enough. Do you enjoy watching a 6ft 5 Jordie cart it up as a crash-ball 12 where the South Africans chew him up like nothing?
And no, it would be Jordie considering the kicking game in today's game.
We tried Jordie at fullback, we rightly moved him to 12.
If he wasn't a Barrett I'd say that Tupaea would have his spot at 12, and he'd likely be on the bench, especially after a rather quiet test year last year (regardless of what he's been doing in NH rugby). But he's Barrett so likely Quinn is watching from the sidelines and we all complain that we have a midfield that can't cart the ball in traffic despite the fact one of them is built like a lock.
was that though also a bit because we were weak in midfield? we were getting found out with the rush defence and thought a big ball player might help
I don't think it has to be zero sum.
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@Kiwiwomble said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@Nepia said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@hikastags said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Jordie's not quick, and he's not elusive. If most people could build a fullback in a lab, I reckon they'd build Christian Cullen - and Jordie most certainly isn't that.
Also it was the Chiefs back 3 who looked silly in what was largely a kicking battle on the weekend, not Will Jordan - he was dominant.Quick enough. Do you enjoy watching a 6ft 5 Jordie cart it up as a crash-ball 12 where the South Africans chew him up like nothing?
And no, it would be Jordie considering the kicking game in today's game.
We tried Jordie at fullback, we rightly moved him to 12.
If he wasn't a Barrett I'd say that Tupaea would have his spot at 12, and he'd likely be on the bench, especially after a rather quiet test year last year (regardless of what he's been doing in NH rugby). But he's Barrett so likely Quinn is watching from the sidelines and we all complain that we have a midfield that can't cart the ball in traffic despite the fact one of them is built like a lock.
was that though also a bit because we were weak in midfield? we were getting found out with the rush defence and thought a big ball player might help
I don't think it has to be zero sum.
@Nepia said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@Kiwiwomble said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@Nepia said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@hikastags said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Jordie's not quick, and he's not elusive. If most people could build a fullback in a lab, I reckon they'd build Christian Cullen - and Jordie most certainly isn't that.
Also it was the Chiefs back 3 who looked silly in what was largely a kicking battle on the weekend, not Will Jordan - he was dominant.Quick enough. Do you enjoy watching a 6ft 5 Jordie cart it up as a crash-ball 12 where the South Africans chew him up like nothing?
And no, it would be Jordie considering the kicking game in today's game.
We tried Jordie at fullback, we rightly moved him to 12.
If he wasn't a Barrett I'd say that Tupaea would have his spot at 12, and he'd likely be on the bench, especially after a rather quiet test year last year (regardless of what he's been doing in NH rugby). But he's Barrett so likely Quinn is watching from the sidelines and we all complain that we have a midfield that can't cart the ball in traffic despite the fact one of them is built like a lock.
was that though also a bit because we were weak in midfield? we were getting found out with the rush defence and thought a big ball player might help
I don't think it has to be zero sum.
i feel the use of the term "also a bit" suggested i also thought it was multi faceted
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I think Tavatavanawai is best used off of the bench - he runs sideways a lot - which you can get away with at Super level.
@KiwiMurph said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
I think Tavatavanawai is best used off of the bench - he runs sideways a lot - which you can get away with at Super level.
What do you see as his best attribute in that role? Punching holes in tired defences? I only ask since I barely saw any Highlanders games so have no idea of his qualities.
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I think Tavatavanawai is best used off of the bench - he runs sideways a lot - which you can get away with at Super level.
@KiwiMurph said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
I think Tavatavanawai is best used off of the bench - he runs sideways a lot - which you can get away with at Super level.
probably right, has the ability to either change the flow of a game or shut one down with his turnovers
@nonpartizan said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@KiwiMurph said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
I think Tavatavanawai is best used off of the bench - he runs sideways a lot - which you can get away with at Super level.
What do you see as his best attribute in that role? Punching holes in tired defences? I only ask since I barely saw any Highlanders games so have no idea of his qualities.
hes a strong runner although as has been pointed out probably doesnt have the top end speed...so more a ensure getting over the advantage line than running in tries from our own half, strong on defence and LOVES a turnover, strong stance over a ruck
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@KiwiMurph said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
I think Tavatavanawai is best used off of the bench - he runs sideways a lot - which you can get away with at Super level.
What do you see as his best attribute in that role? Punching holes in tired defences? I only ask since I barely saw any Highlanders games so have no idea of his qualities.
His key metrics are defenders beaten, offloads, and turnovers won. He does run sideways a lot and we already have two of those as the main 10 option.
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@KiwiMurph said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
I think Tavatavanawai is best used off of the bench - he runs sideways a lot - which you can get away with at Super level.
What do you see as his best attribute in that role? Punching holes in tired defences? I only ask since I barely saw any Highlanders games so have no idea of his qualities.
@nonpartizan said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@KiwiMurph said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
I think Tavatavanawai is best used off of the bench - he runs sideways a lot - which you can get away with at Super level.
What do you see as his best attribute in that role? Punching holes in tired defences? I only ask since I barely saw any Highlanders games so have no idea of his qualities.
Yeah he could be a real weapon late in games. Like having another loosie in relation to breakdown turnovers and against a tiring defence his pocket rocket style power could be very useful.
