2025 All Blacks v France series
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@Dan54 said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Jordie was a 12 before he was a 15 really, just had the skills that also transferred to 15. He still has, and can probably still could fill in at 15 if required. Just with Jordan (who I used to be very iffy about at 15) has now developed or matured into a 15 so well, I can't see Jordie being needed there.
Jordie is a natural midfielder and even those early days playing for Canterbury showed what he was capable of and where his future would be.
What happened at the Canes was that they had the likes of Laumape, Aso, Proctor as midfielders around that time 2018ish that Jordie was chosen as the fullback option. They didn’t really have a fullback option other than Jordie. He did play well there but once the 12 spot opened up the Canes did move him there and that’s despite him being the AB fullback.
@ACT-Crusader said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@Dan54 said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Jordie was a 12 before he was a 15 really, just had the skills that also transferred to 15. He still has, and can probably still could fill in at 15 if required. Just with Jordan (who I used to be very iffy about at 15) has now developed or matured into a 15 so well, I can't see Jordie being needed there.
Jordie is a natural midfielder and even those early days playing for Canterbury showed what he was capable of and where his future would be.
What happened at the Canes was that they had the likes of Laumape, Aso, Proctor as midfielders around that time 2018ish that Jordie was chosen as the fullback option. They didn’t really have a fullback option other than Jordie. He did play well there but once the 12 spot opened up the Canes did move him there and that’s despite him being the AB fullback.
Yeah Razor loves Jordie at 12 he will not get moved to FB,D Mac or BB will play 15 before Jordie does.
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@ACT-Crusader said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@Dan54 said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Jordie was a 12 before he was a 15 really, just had the skills that also transferred to 15. He still has, and can probably still could fill in at 15 if required. Just with Jordan (who I used to be very iffy about at 15) has now developed or matured into a 15 so well, I can't see Jordie being needed there.
Jordie is a natural midfielder and even those early days playing for Canterbury showed what he was capable of and where his future would be.
What happened at the Canes was that they had the likes of Laumape, Aso, Proctor as midfielders around that time 2018ish that Jordie was chosen as the fullback option. They didn’t really have a fullback option other than Jordie. He did play well there but once the 12 spot opened up the Canes did move him there and that’s despite him being the AB fullback.
Yeah Razor loves Jordie at 12 he will not get moved to FB,D Mac or BB will play 15 before Jordie does.
@Chris said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@ACT-Crusader said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@Dan54 said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Jordie was a 12 before he was a 15 really, just had the skills that also transferred to 15. He still has, and can probably still could fill in at 15 if required. Just with Jordan (who I used to be very iffy about at 15) has now developed or matured into a 15 so well, I can't see Jordie being needed there.
Jordie is a natural midfielder and even those early days playing for Canterbury showed what he was capable of and where his future would be.
What happened at the Canes was that they had the likes of Laumape, Aso, Proctor as midfielders around that time 2018ish that Jordie was chosen as the fullback option. They didn’t really have a fullback option other than Jordie. He did play well there but once the 12 spot opened up the Canes did move him there and that’s despite him being the AB fullback.
Yeah Razor loves Jordie at 12 he will not get moved to FB,D Mac or BB will play 15 before Jordie does.
Maybe he can get Jordie more space so we can see what he can do? He can do crash it up, but he's wasted there
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@Bones i read some of the comments, bit of a joke to compare telea to either of those guys
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I read it because I hate myself.
He writes the same article every week just with a slightly different target. Really leaning in to his Aussie audience.
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Not that I really want to rehash the above discussion but for what little that it’s worth, in my view Jordie is most at home as a 12 and Will Jordan is (becoming) a 14/15.
Blaming Jordie for getting smashed behind the gainline is like blaming a Barrett for having a shit haircut: it’s the shape that matters. France didn’t simply launch a guy like Jonathan Danty (110 kg+) into the Bok defensive line in the RWC quarter final, they used short kicks over the top, they used wide passes off of turnover ball, they used box kicks, switch plays to the blindside, quick taps, pick-and-go’s, all to misdirect and overload the Bok defensive line speed.
In the entire first half, Danty carried the ball in first phase just three times: in the first one, he was stopped dead in his tracks and nearly turned over. In the second, he ran a hard line off a lineout, targeting Libbok in the defensive line. And in the third, he was manhandled by De Allende. For the majority, France manipulated the Bok defence in order to get Danty to run at single defenders in broken field play.
Jordie got smashed because the AB attack in the opening 20 minutes was too slow, too conservative and didn’t attack the space that was available with enough conviction. Put any other 12 in world rugby on the attacking backfoot against Du Toit, Etzebeth and Vermeulen and it’s easy to predict what will happen (putting Tupaea or Tavatavanawai in the same situation will change very little). Jordie Barrett has both the tools (passing off left and right, kicking game, offload, defensive prowess, breakdown threat) and the instincts (decision-making in tight spaces, communication, scanning, physicality) to be a very good midfielder. What he needs around him is an AB attack shape which is ambitious and clever, and is able to properly showcase his particular skillset.
As far as Will Jordan is concerned, he, as mentioned before, has taken considerable steps as a fullback, improving his decision-making, distribution, playmaking and kicking. But there are also signs that he could be more effective on the wing at Test level as well, as he looks to have considerably improved his work in close quarter contact, whether it be in defence, at the breakdown or on the attacking edge.
The basis of this seems to be some mass added to his frame as well the way he engages contact with a set defensive line. While he always excelled at running towards weak shoulders in broken play, he struggled with ready defenders and double tackles, often losing the ball by going too upright or hesitating before going into contact. On the basis of this season, and the SR finals series especially, he seems to have worked hard on this. He scored two tries against the Blues in the semi-final by running into crowded defensive spaces and in the final, he again displayed his increased comfort in close contact:
https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExanV6d2hpd3Y3NWMyOGhuNngyczU2YnFrdG5zNTZmd3VrYzlqMXhxeSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/RHZAAq895E0fA8ukLd/giphy.gif
https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYTRobjFrdzFvcDAwdnZ4YWQxYWtrbGhpbm1yazFkbWFmaTdsbTZrNCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/H7wql5lntfEyh1mqJM/giphy.gif
https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYzZzbHd1aWp2cGM3czVrYzhiOHB4ZGdod2E5MHVuNzZmYTczcDlyZyZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/rJKPaYr0kBA2xrDC2q/giphy.gif
https://media3.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExMHQycTJuMXllYjF4bDIyNHVmczBtdGZkbWduM2RmMGExZzQ3MXE4ayZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/KuJQmosDYqxMLPCUB1/giphy.gif
Jordan running into contactJordan uses footwork to fix his defender, gets into a lower body position and accelerates into contact. While these clips might seem innocuous enough, Jordan’s increased comfort in contact makes him, in my view, more of a genuine option on the wing against aggressive defences, the latter often seeking to dominate the contact on the edge in order to push teams back towards the middle. It means Jordan can be used for attacking the opposition in multiple ways and spaces, whether it’s as a scanner and organizer at the back or whether it’s at the end of an attacking chain, where he can use his footwork and increased comfort in contact to finish a strike.
He is, in other words, slowly turning into a version of Ben Smith which, obviously, is a very good thing. Smith’s value was both his attacking vision as well as his ability to be used in different ways, giving an attack coach a unique weapon to unlock opposition defences. For me, at least, it is looking like Jordan is becoming such a multifaceted option in his own right, his ability to attack multiple spaces throughout a game something which needs to be further cultivated at Test level.
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Bryn Hall quite butthurt about EB and DH. So many MFers, don't know how they are going to get them all game time
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He had the same issues with turnovers against SA last year too.
@brodean said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
He had the same issues with turnovers against SA last year too.
Yeah, he clearly was rushed back too early and had little confidence.
Still can have very poor games though.
I think we will see him play a lot better rrom fullback this year
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@brodean said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
He had the same issues with turnovers against SA last year too.
Yeah, he clearly was rushed back too early and had little confidence.
Still can have very poor games though.
I think we will see him play a lot better rrom fullback this year
Kinda depends on what sort of support Jordan gets from his wings. Clarke has been out of form and Reece sh*ts the bed every other test.
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Ridiculous
@The-Docter said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Ridiculous
This could relate to any number of my posts.
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Not that I really want to rehash the above discussion but for what little that it’s worth, in my view Jordie is most at home as a 12 and Will Jordan is (becoming) a 14/15.
Blaming Jordie for getting smashed behind the gainline is like blaming a Barrett for having a shit haircut: it’s the shape that matters. France didn’t simply launch a guy like Jonathan Danty (110 kg+) into the Bok defensive line in the RWC quarter final, they used short kicks over the top, they used wide passes off of turnover ball, they used box kicks, switch plays to the blindside, quick taps, pick-and-go’s, all to misdirect and overload the Bok defensive line speed.
In the entire first half, Danty carried the ball in first phase just three times: in the first one, he was stopped dead in his tracks and nearly turned over. In the second, he ran a hard line off a lineout, targeting Libbok in the defensive line. And in the third, he was manhandled by De Allende. For the majority, France manipulated the Bok defence in order to get Danty to run at single defenders in broken field play.
Jordie got smashed because the AB attack in the opening 20 minutes was too slow, too conservative and didn’t attack the space that was available with enough conviction. Put any other 12 in world rugby on the attacking backfoot against Du Toit, Etzebeth and Vermeulen and it’s easy to predict what will happen (putting Tupaea or Tavatavanawai in the same situation will change very little). Jordie Barrett has both the tools (passing off left and right, kicking game, offload, defensive prowess, breakdown threat) and the instincts (decision-making in tight spaces, communication, scanning, physicality) to be a very good midfielder. What he needs around him is an AB attack shape which is ambitious and clever, and is able to properly showcase his particular skillset.
As far as Will Jordan is concerned, he, as mentioned before, has taken considerable steps as a fullback, improving his decision-making, distribution, playmaking and kicking. But there are also signs that he could be more effective on the wing at Test level as well, as he looks to have considerably improved his work in close quarter contact, whether it be in defence, at the breakdown or on the attacking edge.
The basis of this seems to be some mass added to his frame as well the way he engages contact with a set defensive line. While he always excelled at running towards weak shoulders in broken play, he struggled with ready defenders and double tackles, often losing the ball by going too upright or hesitating before going into contact. On the basis of this season, and the SR finals series especially, he seems to have worked hard on this. He scored two tries against the Blues in the semi-final by running into crowded defensive spaces and in the final, he again displayed his increased comfort in close contact:
https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExanV6d2hpd3Y3NWMyOGhuNngyczU2YnFrdG5zNTZmd3VrYzlqMXhxeSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/RHZAAq895E0fA8ukLd/giphy.gif
https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYTRobjFrdzFvcDAwdnZ4YWQxYWtrbGhpbm1yazFkbWFmaTdsbTZrNCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/H7wql5lntfEyh1mqJM/giphy.gif
https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYzZzbHd1aWp2cGM3czVrYzhiOHB4ZGdod2E5MHVuNzZmYTczcDlyZyZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/rJKPaYr0kBA2xrDC2q/giphy.gif
https://media3.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExMHQycTJuMXllYjF4bDIyNHVmczBtdGZkbWduM2RmMGExZzQ3MXE4ayZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/KuJQmosDYqxMLPCUB1/giphy.gif
Jordan running into contactJordan uses footwork to fix his defender, gets into a lower body position and accelerates into contact. While these clips might seem innocuous enough, Jordan’s increased comfort in contact makes him, in my view, more of a genuine option on the wing against aggressive defences, the latter often seeking to dominate the contact on the edge in order to push teams back towards the middle. It means Jordan can be used for attacking the opposition in multiple ways and spaces, whether it’s as a scanner and organizer at the back or whether it’s at the end of an attacking chain, where he can use his footwork and increased comfort in contact to finish a strike.
He is, in other words, slowly turning into a version of Ben Smith which, obviously, is a very good thing. Smith’s value was both his attacking vision as well as his ability to be used in different ways, giving an attack coach a unique weapon to unlock opposition defences. For me, at least, it is looking like Jordan is becoming such a multifaceted option in his own right, his ability to attack multiple spaces throughout a game something which needs to be further cultivated at Test level.
@Mauss said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Not that I really want to rehash the above discussion but for what little that it’s worth, in my view Jordie is most at home as a 12 and Will Jordan is (becoming) a 14/15.
Blaming Jordie for getting smashed behind the gainline is like blaming a Barrett for having a shit haircut: it’s the shape that matters. France didn’t simply launch a guy like Jonathan Danty (110 kg+) into the Bok defensive line in the RWC quarter final, they used short kicks over the top, they used wide passes off of turnover ball, they used box kicks, switch plays to the blindside, quick taps, pick-and-go’s, all to misdirect and overload the Bok defensive line speed.
In the entire first half, Danty carried the ball in first phase just three times: in the first one, he was stopped dead in his tracks and nearly turned over. In the second, he ran a hard line off a lineout, targeting Libbok in the defensive line. And in the third, he was manhandled by De Allende. For the majority, France manipulated the Bok defence in order to get Danty to run at single defenders in broken field play.
Jordie got smashed because the AB attack in the opening 20 minutes was too slow, too conservative and didn’t attack the space that was available with enough conviction. Put any other 12 in world rugby on the attacking backfoot against Du Toit, Etzebeth and Vermeulen and it’s easy to predict what will happen (putting Tupaea or Tavatavanawai in the same situation will change very little). Jordie Barrett has both the tools (passing off left and right, kicking game, offload, defensive prowess, breakdown threat) and the instincts (decision-making in tight spaces, communication, scanning, physicality) to be a very good midfielder. What he needs around him is an AB attack shape which is ambitious and clever, and is able to properly showcase his particular skillset.
As far as Will Jordan is concerned, he, as mentioned before, has taken considerable steps as a fullback, improving his decision-making, distribution, playmaking and kicking. But there are also signs that he could be more effective on the wing at Test level as well, as he looks to have considerably improved his work in close quarter contact, whether it be in defence, at the breakdown or on the attacking edge.
The basis of this seems to be some mass added to his frame as well the way he engages contact with a set defensive line. While he always excelled at running towards weak shoulders in broken play, he struggled with ready defenders and double tackles, often losing the ball by going too upright or hesitating before going into contact. On the basis of this season, and the SR finals series especially, he seems to have worked hard on this. He scored two tries against the Blues in the semi-final by running into crowded defensive spaces and in the final, he again displayed his increased comfort in close contact:
https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExanV6d2hpd3Y3NWMyOGhuNngyczU2YnFrdG5zNTZmd3VrYzlqMXhxeSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/RHZAAq895E0fA8ukLd/giphy.gif
https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYTRobjFrdzFvcDAwdnZ4YWQxYWtrbGhpbm1yazFkbWFmaTdsbTZrNCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/H7wql5lntfEyh1mqJM/giphy.gif
https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYzZzbHd1aWp2cGM3czVrYzhiOHB4ZGdod2E5MHVuNzZmYTczcDlyZyZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/rJKPaYr0kBA2xrDC2q/giphy.gif
https://media3.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExMHQycTJuMXllYjF4bDIyNHVmczBtdGZkbWduM2RmMGExZzQ3MXE4ayZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/KuJQmosDYqxMLPCUB1/giphy.gif
Jordan running into contactJordan uses footwork to fix his defender, gets into a lower body position and accelerates into contact. While these clips might seem innocuous enough, Jordan’s increased comfort in contact makes him, in my view, more of a genuine option on the wing against aggressive defences, the latter often seeking to dominate the contact on the edge in order to push teams back towards the middle. It means Jordan can be used for attacking the opposition in multiple ways and spaces, whether it’s as a scanner and organizer at the back or whether it’s at the end of an attacking chain, where he can use his footwork and increased comfort in contact to finish a strike.
He is, in other words, slowly turning into a version of Ben Smith which, obviously, is a very good thing. Smith’s value was both his attacking vision as well as his ability to be used in different ways, giving an attack coach a unique weapon to unlock opposition defences. For me, at least, it is looking like Jordan is becoming such a multifaceted option in his own right, his ability to attack multiple spaces throughout a game something which needs to be further cultivated at Test level.
Jeez @Mauss , you write like I've got time to
a. Read
b. Understand
What you've written.Love your stuff, but will try and comprehend it all in the morning!
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@Mauss said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Not that I really want to rehash the above discussion but for what little that it’s worth, in my view Jordie is most at home as a 12 and Will Jordan is (becoming) a 14/15.
Blaming Jordie for getting smashed behind the gainline is like blaming a Barrett for having a shit haircut: it’s the shape that matters. France didn’t simply launch a guy like Jonathan Danty (110 kg+) into the Bok defensive line in the RWC quarter final, they used short kicks over the top, they used wide passes off of turnover ball, they used box kicks, switch plays to the blindside, quick taps, pick-and-go’s, all to misdirect and overload the Bok defensive line speed.
In the entire first half, Danty carried the ball in first phase just three times: in the first one, he was stopped dead in his tracks and nearly turned over. In the second, he ran a hard line off a lineout, targeting Libbok in the defensive line. And in the third, he was manhandled by De Allende. For the majority, France manipulated the Bok defence in order to get Danty to run at single defenders in broken field play.
Jordie got smashed because the AB attack in the opening 20 minutes was too slow, too conservative and didn’t attack the space that was available with enough conviction. Put any other 12 in world rugby on the attacking backfoot against Du Toit, Etzebeth and Vermeulen and it’s easy to predict what will happen (putting Tupaea or Tavatavanawai in the same situation will change very little). Jordie Barrett has both the tools (passing off left and right, kicking game, offload, defensive prowess, breakdown threat) and the instincts (decision-making in tight spaces, communication, scanning, physicality) to be a very good midfielder. What he needs around him is an AB attack shape which is ambitious and clever, and is able to properly showcase his particular skillset.
As far as Will Jordan is concerned, he, as mentioned before, has taken considerable steps as a fullback, improving his decision-making, distribution, playmaking and kicking. But there are also signs that he could be more effective on the wing at Test level as well, as he looks to have considerably improved his work in close quarter contact, whether it be in defence, at the breakdown or on the attacking edge.
The basis of this seems to be some mass added to his frame as well the way he engages contact with a set defensive line. While he always excelled at running towards weak shoulders in broken play, he struggled with ready defenders and double tackles, often losing the ball by going too upright or hesitating before going into contact. On the basis of this season, and the SR finals series especially, he seems to have worked hard on this. He scored two tries against the Blues in the semi-final by running into crowded defensive spaces and in the final, he again displayed his increased comfort in close contact:
https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExanV6d2hpd3Y3NWMyOGhuNngyczU2YnFrdG5zNTZmd3VrYzlqMXhxeSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/RHZAAq895E0fA8ukLd/giphy.gif
https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYTRobjFrdzFvcDAwdnZ4YWQxYWtrbGhpbm1yazFkbWFmaTdsbTZrNCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/H7wql5lntfEyh1mqJM/giphy.gif
https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYzZzbHd1aWp2cGM3czVrYzhiOHB4ZGdod2E5MHVuNzZmYTczcDlyZyZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/rJKPaYr0kBA2xrDC2q/giphy.gif
https://media3.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExMHQycTJuMXllYjF4bDIyNHVmczBtdGZkbWduM2RmMGExZzQ3MXE4ayZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/KuJQmosDYqxMLPCUB1/giphy.gif
Jordan running into contactJordan uses footwork to fix his defender, gets into a lower body position and accelerates into contact. While these clips might seem innocuous enough, Jordan’s increased comfort in contact makes him, in my view, more of a genuine option on the wing against aggressive defences, the latter often seeking to dominate the contact on the edge in order to push teams back towards the middle. It means Jordan can be used for attacking the opposition in multiple ways and spaces, whether it’s as a scanner and organizer at the back or whether it’s at the end of an attacking chain, where he can use his footwork and increased comfort in contact to finish a strike.
He is, in other words, slowly turning into a version of Ben Smith which, obviously, is a very good thing. Smith’s value was both his attacking vision as well as his ability to be used in different ways, giving an attack coach a unique weapon to unlock opposition defences. For me, at least, it is looking like Jordan is becoming such a multifaceted option in his own right, his ability to attack multiple spaces throughout a game something which needs to be further cultivated at Test level.
Jeez @Mauss , you write like I've got time to
a. Read
b. Understand
What you've written.Love your stuff, but will try and comprehend it all in the morning!
@booboo said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@Mauss said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Not that I really want to rehash the above discussion but for what little that it’s worth, in my view Jordie is most at home as a 12 and Will Jordan is (becoming) a 14/15.
Blaming Jordie for getting smashed behind the gainline is like blaming a Barrett for having a shit haircut: it’s the shape that matters. France didn’t simply launch a guy like Jonathan Danty (110 kg+) into the Bok defensive line in the RWC quarter final, they used short kicks over the top, they used wide passes off of turnover ball, they used box kicks, switch plays to the blindside, quick taps, pick-and-go’s, all to misdirect and overload the Bok defensive line speed.
In the entire first half, Danty carried the ball in first phase just three times: in the first one, he was stopped dead in his tracks and nearly turned over. In the second, he ran a hard line off a lineout, targeting Libbok in the defensive line. And in the third, he was manhandled by De Allende. For the majority, France manipulated the Bok defence in order to get Danty to run at single defenders in broken field play.
Jordie got smashed because the AB attack in the opening 20 minutes was too slow, too conservative and didn’t attack the space that was available with enough conviction. Put any other 12 in world rugby on the attacking backfoot against Du Toit, Etzebeth and Vermeulen and it’s easy to predict what will happen (putting Tupaea or Tavatavanawai in the same situation will change very little). Jordie Barrett has both the tools (passing off left and right, kicking game, offload, defensive prowess, breakdown threat) and the instincts (decision-making in tight spaces, communication, scanning, physicality) to be a very good midfielder. What he needs around him is an AB attack shape which is ambitious and clever, and is able to properly showcase his particular skillset.
As far as Will Jordan is concerned, he, as mentioned before, has taken considerable steps as a fullback, improving his decision-making, distribution, playmaking and kicking. But there are also signs that he could be more effective on the wing at Test level as well, as he looks to have considerably improved his work in close quarter contact, whether it be in defence, at the breakdown or on the attacking edge.
The basis of this seems to be some mass added to his frame as well the way he engages contact with a set defensive line. While he always excelled at running towards weak shoulders in broken play, he struggled with ready defenders and double tackles, often losing the ball by going too upright or hesitating before going into contact. On the basis of this season, and the SR finals series especially, he seems to have worked hard on this. He scored two tries against the Blues in the semi-final by running into crowded defensive spaces and in the final, he again displayed his increased comfort in close contact:
https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExanV6d2hpd3Y3NWMyOGhuNngyczU2YnFrdG5zNTZmd3VrYzlqMXhxeSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/RHZAAq895E0fA8ukLd/giphy.gif
https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYTRobjFrdzFvcDAwdnZ4YWQxYWtrbGhpbm1yazFkbWFmaTdsbTZrNCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/H7wql5lntfEyh1mqJM/giphy.gif
https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYzZzbHd1aWp2cGM3czVrYzhiOHB4ZGdod2E5MHVuNzZmYTczcDlyZyZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/rJKPaYr0kBA2xrDC2q/giphy.gif
https://media3.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExMHQycTJuMXllYjF4bDIyNHVmczBtdGZkbWduM2RmMGExZzQ3MXE4ayZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/KuJQmosDYqxMLPCUB1/giphy.gif
Jordan running into contactJordan uses footwork to fix his defender, gets into a lower body position and accelerates into contact. While these clips might seem innocuous enough, Jordan’s increased comfort in contact makes him, in my view, more of a genuine option on the wing against aggressive defences, the latter often seeking to dominate the contact on the edge in order to push teams back towards the middle. It means Jordan can be used for attacking the opposition in multiple ways and spaces, whether it’s as a scanner and organizer at the back or whether it’s at the end of an attacking chain, where he can use his footwork and increased comfort in contact to finish a strike.
He is, in other words, slowly turning into a version of Ben Smith which, obviously, is a very good thing. Smith’s value was both his attacking vision as well as his ability to be used in different ways, giving an attack coach a unique weapon to unlock opposition defences. For me, at least, it is looking like Jordan is becoming such a multifaceted option in his own right, his ability to attack multiple spaces throughout a game something which needs to be further cultivated at Test level.
Jeez @Mauss , you write like I've got time to
a. Read
b. Understand
What you've written.Love your stuff, but will try and comprehend it all in the morning!
I've given Mauss' last post the CGPT treatment
Jordie Barrett thrives at second five-eighth (12), with strong passing, defence, and decision-making. His recent struggles were due to a slow, conservative All Blacks attack, not individual flaws. France showed how to break down the Springboks with smart, varied play. Will Jordan, meanwhile, has improved both as a fullback and a wing. Added strength and better contact technique now make him more effective in tight spaces. His footwork and versatility allow him to attack from deep or finish wide plays. Like Ben Smith, Jordan is becoming a dynamic, multi-role weapon who should be further developed at Test level.
-
@booboo said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@Mauss said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Not that I really want to rehash the above discussion but for what little that it’s worth, in my view Jordie is most at home as a 12 and Will Jordan is (becoming) a 14/15.
Blaming Jordie for getting smashed behind the gainline is like blaming a Barrett for having a shit haircut: it’s the shape that matters. France didn’t simply launch a guy like Jonathan Danty (110 kg+) into the Bok defensive line in the RWC quarter final, they used short kicks over the top, they used wide passes off of turnover ball, they used box kicks, switch plays to the blindside, quick taps, pick-and-go’s, all to misdirect and overload the Bok defensive line speed.
In the entire first half, Danty carried the ball in first phase just three times: in the first one, he was stopped dead in his tracks and nearly turned over. In the second, he ran a hard line off a lineout, targeting Libbok in the defensive line. And in the third, he was manhandled by De Allende. For the majority, France manipulated the Bok defence in order to get Danty to run at single defenders in broken field play.
Jordie got smashed because the AB attack in the opening 20 minutes was too slow, too conservative and didn’t attack the space that was available with enough conviction. Put any other 12 in world rugby on the attacking backfoot against Du Toit, Etzebeth and Vermeulen and it’s easy to predict what will happen (putting Tupaea or Tavatavanawai in the same situation will change very little). Jordie Barrett has both the tools (passing off left and right, kicking game, offload, defensive prowess, breakdown threat) and the instincts (decision-making in tight spaces, communication, scanning, physicality) to be a very good midfielder. What he needs around him is an AB attack shape which is ambitious and clever, and is able to properly showcase his particular skillset.
As far as Will Jordan is concerned, he, as mentioned before, has taken considerable steps as a fullback, improving his decision-making, distribution, playmaking and kicking. But there are also signs that he could be more effective on the wing at Test level as well, as he looks to have considerably improved his work in close quarter contact, whether it be in defence, at the breakdown or on the attacking edge.
The basis of this seems to be some mass added to his frame as well the way he engages contact with a set defensive line. While he always excelled at running towards weak shoulders in broken play, he struggled with ready defenders and double tackles, often losing the ball by going too upright or hesitating before going into contact. On the basis of this season, and the SR finals series especially, he seems to have worked hard on this. He scored two tries against the Blues in the semi-final by running into crowded defensive spaces and in the final, he again displayed his increased comfort in close contact:
https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExanV6d2hpd3Y3NWMyOGhuNngyczU2YnFrdG5zNTZmd3VrYzlqMXhxeSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/RHZAAq895E0fA8ukLd/giphy.gif
https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYTRobjFrdzFvcDAwdnZ4YWQxYWtrbGhpbm1yazFkbWFmaTdsbTZrNCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/H7wql5lntfEyh1mqJM/giphy.gif
https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYzZzbHd1aWp2cGM3czVrYzhiOHB4ZGdod2E5MHVuNzZmYTczcDlyZyZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/rJKPaYr0kBA2xrDC2q/giphy.gif
https://media3.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExMHQycTJuMXllYjF4bDIyNHVmczBtdGZkbWduM2RmMGExZzQ3MXE4ayZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/KuJQmosDYqxMLPCUB1/giphy.gif
Jordan running into contactJordan uses footwork to fix his defender, gets into a lower body position and accelerates into contact. While these clips might seem innocuous enough, Jordan’s increased comfort in contact makes him, in my view, more of a genuine option on the wing against aggressive defences, the latter often seeking to dominate the contact on the edge in order to push teams back towards the middle. It means Jordan can be used for attacking the opposition in multiple ways and spaces, whether it’s as a scanner and organizer at the back or whether it’s at the end of an attacking chain, where he can use his footwork and increased comfort in contact to finish a strike.
He is, in other words, slowly turning into a version of Ben Smith which, obviously, is a very good thing. Smith’s value was both his attacking vision as well as his ability to be used in different ways, giving an attack coach a unique weapon to unlock opposition defences. For me, at least, it is looking like Jordan is becoming such a multifaceted option in his own right, his ability to attack multiple spaces throughout a game something which needs to be further cultivated at Test level.
Jeez @Mauss , you write like I've got time to
a. Read
b. Understand
What you've written.Love your stuff, but will try and comprehend it all in the morning!
I've given Mauss' last post the CGPT treatment
Jordie Barrett thrives at second five-eighth (12), with strong passing, defence, and decision-making. His recent struggles were due to a slow, conservative All Blacks attack, not individual flaws. France showed how to break down the Springboks with smart, varied play. Will Jordan, meanwhile, has improved both as a fullback and a wing. Added strength and better contact technique now make him more effective in tight spaces. His footwork and versatility allow him to attack from deep or finish wide plays. Like Ben Smith, Jordan is becoming a dynamic, multi-role weapon who should be further developed at Test level.
@canefan said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
I've given Mauss' last post the CGPT treatment
Jordie Barrett thrives at second five-eighth (12), with strong passing, defence, and decision-making. His recent struggles were due to a slow, conservative All Blacks attack, not individual flaws. France showed how to break down the Springboks with smart, varied play. Will Jordan, meanwhile, has improved both as a fullback and a wing. Added strength and better contact technique now make him more effective in tight spaces. His footwork and versatility allow him to attack from deep or finish wide plays. Like Ben Smith, Jordan is becoming a dynamic, multi-role weapon who should be further developed at Test level.
Can't say I've had a lot of experience with AI, apart from trying to deduce what's written by a real person and what's not.
The Jordan summary is all right, I suppose, if a bit reductionist. Less enthused about the Jordie-stuff, my point was very specific to the RWC final and the AB attack performance there in the first 20 minutes. And it doesn't even mention the Barrett hair-joke, which I thought was the best bit.
I'm going to start including tl;dr's.
-
@booboo said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@Mauss said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Not that I really want to rehash the above discussion but for what little that it’s worth, in my view Jordie is most at home as a 12 and Will Jordan is (becoming) a 14/15.
Blaming Jordie for getting smashed behind the gainline is like blaming a Barrett for having a shit haircut: it’s the shape that matters. France didn’t simply launch a guy like Jonathan Danty (110 kg+) into the Bok defensive line in the RWC quarter final, they used short kicks over the top, they used wide passes off of turnover ball, they used box kicks, switch plays to the blindside, quick taps, pick-and-go’s, all to misdirect and overload the Bok defensive line speed.
In the entire first half, Danty carried the ball in first phase just three times: in the first one, he was stopped dead in his tracks and nearly turned over. In the second, he ran a hard line off a lineout, targeting Libbok in the defensive line. And in the third, he was manhandled by De Allende. For the majority, France manipulated the Bok defence in order to get Danty to run at single defenders in broken field play.
Jordie got smashed because the AB attack in the opening 20 minutes was too slow, too conservative and didn’t attack the space that was available with enough conviction. Put any other 12 in world rugby on the attacking backfoot against Du Toit, Etzebeth and Vermeulen and it’s easy to predict what will happen (putting Tupaea or Tavatavanawai in the same situation will change very little). Jordie Barrett has both the tools (passing off left and right, kicking game, offload, defensive prowess, breakdown threat) and the instincts (decision-making in tight spaces, communication, scanning, physicality) to be a very good midfielder. What he needs around him is an AB attack shape which is ambitious and clever, and is able to properly showcase his particular skillset.
As far as Will Jordan is concerned, he, as mentioned before, has taken considerable steps as a fullback, improving his decision-making, distribution, playmaking and kicking. But there are also signs that he could be more effective on the wing at Test level as well, as he looks to have considerably improved his work in close quarter contact, whether it be in defence, at the breakdown or on the attacking edge.
The basis of this seems to be some mass added to his frame as well the way he engages contact with a set defensive line. While he always excelled at running towards weak shoulders in broken play, he struggled with ready defenders and double tackles, often losing the ball by going too upright or hesitating before going into contact. On the basis of this season, and the SR finals series especially, he seems to have worked hard on this. He scored two tries against the Blues in the semi-final by running into crowded defensive spaces and in the final, he again displayed his increased comfort in close contact:
https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExanV6d2hpd3Y3NWMyOGhuNngyczU2YnFrdG5zNTZmd3VrYzlqMXhxeSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/RHZAAq895E0fA8ukLd/giphy.gif
https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYTRobjFrdzFvcDAwdnZ4YWQxYWtrbGhpbm1yazFkbWFmaTdsbTZrNCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/H7wql5lntfEyh1mqJM/giphy.gif
https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYzZzbHd1aWp2cGM3czVrYzhiOHB4ZGdod2E5MHVuNzZmYTczcDlyZyZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/rJKPaYr0kBA2xrDC2q/giphy.gif
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Jordan running into contactJordan uses footwork to fix his defender, gets into a lower body position and accelerates into contact. While these clips might seem innocuous enough, Jordan’s increased comfort in contact makes him, in my view, more of a genuine option on the wing against aggressive defences, the latter often seeking to dominate the contact on the edge in order to push teams back towards the middle. It means Jordan can be used for attacking the opposition in multiple ways and spaces, whether it’s as a scanner and organizer at the back or whether it’s at the end of an attacking chain, where he can use his footwork and increased comfort in contact to finish a strike.
He is, in other words, slowly turning into a version of Ben Smith which, obviously, is a very good thing. Smith’s value was both his attacking vision as well as his ability to be used in different ways, giving an attack coach a unique weapon to unlock opposition defences. For me, at least, it is looking like Jordan is becoming such a multifaceted option in his own right, his ability to attack multiple spaces throughout a game something which needs to be further cultivated at Test level.
Jeez @Mauss , you write like I've got time to
a. Read
b. Understand
What you've written.Love your stuff, but will try and comprehend it all in the morning!
I've given Mauss' last post the CGPT treatment
Jordie Barrett thrives at second five-eighth (12), with strong passing, defence, and decision-making. His recent struggles were due to a slow, conservative All Blacks attack, not individual flaws. France showed how to break down the Springboks with smart, varied play. Will Jordan, meanwhile, has improved both as a fullback and a wing. Added strength and better contact technique now make him more effective in tight spaces. His footwork and versatility allow him to attack from deep or finish wide plays. Like Ben Smith, Jordan is becoming a dynamic, multi-role weapon who should be further developed at Test level.
@canefan said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@booboo said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@Mauss said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Not that I really want to rehash the above discussion but for what little that it’s worth, in my view Jordie is most at home as a 12 and Will Jordan is (becoming) a 14/15.
Blaming Jordie for getting smashed behind the gainline is like blaming a Barrett for having a shit haircut: it’s the shape that matters. France didn’t simply launch a guy like Jonathan Danty (110 kg+) into the Bok defensive line in the RWC quarter final, they used short kicks over the top, they used wide passes off of turnover ball, they used box kicks, switch plays to the blindside, quick taps, pick-and-go’s, all to misdirect and overload the Bok defensive line speed.
In the entire first half, Danty carried the ball in first phase just three times: in the first one, he was stopped dead in his tracks and nearly turned over. In the second, he ran a hard line off a lineout, targeting Libbok in the defensive line. And in the third, he was manhandled by De Allende. For the majority, France manipulated the Bok defence in order to get Danty to run at single defenders in broken field play.
Jordie got smashed because the AB attack in the opening 20 minutes was too slow, too conservative and didn’t attack the space that was available with enough conviction. Put any other 12 in world rugby on the attacking backfoot against Du Toit, Etzebeth and Vermeulen and it’s easy to predict what will happen (putting Tupaea or Tavatavanawai in the same situation will change very little). Jordie Barrett has both the tools (passing off left and right, kicking game, offload, defensive prowess, breakdown threat) and the instincts (decision-making in tight spaces, communication, scanning, physicality) to be a very good midfielder. What he needs around him is an AB attack shape which is ambitious and clever, and is able to properly showcase his particular skillset.
As far as Will Jordan is concerned, he, as mentioned before, has taken considerable steps as a fullback, improving his decision-making, distribution, playmaking and kicking. But there are also signs that he could be more effective on the wing at Test level as well, as he looks to have considerably improved his work in close quarter contact, whether it be in defence, at the breakdown or on the attacking edge.
The basis of this seems to be some mass added to his frame as well the way he engages contact with a set defensive line. While he always excelled at running towards weak shoulders in broken play, he struggled with ready defenders and double tackles, often losing the ball by going too upright or hesitating before going into contact. On the basis of this season, and the SR finals series especially, he seems to have worked hard on this. He scored two tries against the Blues in the semi-final by running into crowded defensive spaces and in the final, he again displayed his increased comfort in close contact:
https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExanV6d2hpd3Y3NWMyOGhuNngyczU2YnFrdG5zNTZmd3VrYzlqMXhxeSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/RHZAAq895E0fA8ukLd/giphy.gif
https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYTRobjFrdzFvcDAwdnZ4YWQxYWtrbGhpbm1yazFkbWFmaTdsbTZrNCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/H7wql5lntfEyh1mqJM/giphy.gif
https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYzZzbHd1aWp2cGM3czVrYzhiOHB4ZGdod2E5MHVuNzZmYTczcDlyZyZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/rJKPaYr0kBA2xrDC2q/giphy.gif
https://media3.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExMHQycTJuMXllYjF4bDIyNHVmczBtdGZkbWduM2RmMGExZzQ3MXE4ayZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/KuJQmosDYqxMLPCUB1/giphy.gif
Jordan running into contactJordan uses footwork to fix his defender, gets into a lower body position and accelerates into contact. While these clips might seem innocuous enough, Jordan’s increased comfort in contact makes him, in my view, more of a genuine option on the wing against aggressive defences, the latter often seeking to dominate the contact on the edge in order to push teams back towards the middle. It means Jordan can be used for attacking the opposition in multiple ways and spaces, whether it’s as a scanner and organizer at the back or whether it’s at the end of an attacking chain, where he can use his footwork and increased comfort in contact to finish a strike.
He is, in other words, slowly turning into a version of Ben Smith which, obviously, is a very good thing. Smith’s value was both his attacking vision as well as his ability to be used in different ways, giving an attack coach a unique weapon to unlock opposition defences. For me, at least, it is looking like Jordan is becoming such a multifaceted option in his own right, his ability to attack multiple spaces throughout a game something which needs to be further cultivated at Test level.
Jeez @Mauss , you write like I've got time to
a. Read
b. Understand
What you've written.Love your stuff, but will try and comprehend it all in the morning!
I've given Mauss' last post the CGPT treatment
Jordie Barrett thrives at second five-eighth (12), with strong passing, defence, and decision-making. His recent struggles were due to a slow, conservative All Blacks attack, not individual flaws. France showed how to break down the Springboks with smart, varied play. Will Jordan, meanwhile, has improved both as a fullback and a wing. Added strength and better contact technique now make him more effective in tight spaces. His footwork and versatility allow him to attack from deep or finish wide plays. Like Ben Smith, Jordan is becoming a dynamic, multi-role weapon who should be further developed at Test level.
@Grok is this true?
