2025 All Blacks v France series
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@KiwiMurph lots of pressure on Proctor to perform given the pressure that was heaped on Reiko I include myself in that group
@Steven-Harris said in 2025 All Blacks v France series:
@KiwiMurph lots of pressure on Proctor to perform given the pressure that was heaped on Reiko I include myself in that group
Yup sure is. We all know that Rieko doesn't miss that tackle that led to the French 1st try. I do think that there is an upside to him though, but last night was a disaster for him.
Another one where I'm struggling to see how he fits into things is Kirifi. Like, I'm happy enough to see him get a crack, but he's a one trick pony, and if that trick isn't coming off, then I don't see the point in having him there, especially with Savea on at the same time. He looked like an under 85kg player out there amongst men. Sure, give him another crack, the series even, but I wasn't blown away from what I saw of him last night.
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This has probably been said in the match thread which I haven’t yet read but I’d like to post it in here anyway without sounding like too much of a homer.
For Fabian Holland to go 80 minutes on test debut in the tight 5 is an incredibly rare feat and one that deserves a lot of credit.
The fact the coaches have that trust in him already says a lot. Was also the leading tackler for the All Blacks with 17 if I remember correctly. Massive effort from the big man.
Main thing is he did his core roles well and shows he didn’t look out of place. Super stoked for the guy. Also glad I don’t look silly after pumping him up since he arrived at Otago.
Huge future ahead in the black jersey, locking depth is starting to look like a strength.
@Landers92 said in 2025 All Blacks v France series:
This has probably been said in the match thread which I haven’t yet read but I’d like to post it in here anyway without sounding like too much of a homer.
For Fabian Holland to go 80 minutes on test debut in the tight 5 is an incredibly rare feat and one that deserves a lot of credit.
The fact the coaches have that trust in him already says a lot. Was also the leading tackler for the All Blacks with 17 if I remember correctly. Massive effort from the big man.
Main thing is he did his core roles well and shows he didn’t look out of place. Super stoked for the guy. Also glad I don’t look silly after pumping him up since he arrived at Otago.
Huge future ahead in the black jersey, locking depth is starting to look like a strength.
Yup him and Lio-Willie had solid outings. Certainly the best out of the new brigade.
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Another thing I like about Holland is he has good hands - comes in handy not only in the lineout and restart but in general play as well - it's an underrated aspect - whereas someone like Darry is a bit of a goober handling wise - these little things add up at the top level.
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I really hate the caterpillar/snake rucks, them allowing the 9 to roll it back into position often using his hands before he kicks...9 is given far too much protection and time to fuck around with the ball in his hands at the base...
#wehatesitsomuch
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@DMX said in 2025 All Blacks v France series:
Pretty sure that was his second test , first was against Fiji and he had a great game. If I remember right his brother had one test against Japan.
Nope it was his 3rd start
Billy Proctor started vs Japan last year - a game in which Ruben Love came off the bench at the end to score 2 tries.
@KiwiMurph said in 2025 All Blacks v France series:
@DMX said in 2025 All Blacks v France series:
Pretty sure that was his second test , first was against Fiji and he had a great game. If I remember right his brother had one test against Japan.
Nope it was his 3rd start
Billy Proctor started vs Japan last year - a game in which Ruben Love came off the bench at the end to score 2 tries.
Stand corrected,
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@Steven-Harris said in 2025 All Blacks v France series:
@KiwiMurph lots of pressure on Proctor to perform given the pressure that was heaped on Reiko I include myself in that group
Yup sure is. We all know that Rieko doesn't miss that tackle that led to the French 1st try. I do think that there is an upside to him though, but last night was a disaster for him.
Another one where I'm struggling to see how he fits into things is Kirifi. Like, I'm happy enough to see him get a crack, but he's a one trick pony, and if that trick isn't coming off, then I don't see the point in having him there, especially with Savea on at the same time. He looked like an under 85kg player out there amongst men. Sure, give him another crack, the series even, but I wasn't blown away from what I saw of him last night.
@African-Monkey it was DK's debut, in the first match of the year, while the team is largely in disarray. I'd like to see guys that have performed for years get a better chance than 20-30 minutes and discarded because they were only decent and not amazing.
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@African-Monkey it was DK's debut, in the first match of the year, while the team is largely in disarray. I'd like to see guys that have performed for years get a better chance than 20-30 minutes and discarded because they were only decent and not amazing.
@Bones said in 2025 All Blacks v France series:
@African-Monkey it was DK's debut, in the first match of the year, while the team is largely in disarray. I'd like to see guys that have performed for years get a better chance than 20-30 minutes and discarded because they were only decent and not amazing.
Yup and I stated as much. I'm just saying that I didn't like what I saw, but I, like you, feel that that he deserves a fair crack before being discarded. He might be really good in the next test.
I've also said during the year that I don't wanna see another Shaun Stevenson type situation where guys perform for years and years for little reward, and Kirifi fits that description.
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@Landers92 said in 2025 All Blacks v France series:
This has probably been said in the match thread which I haven’t yet read but I’d like to post it in here anyway without sounding like too much of a homer.
For Fabian Holland to go 80 minutes on test debut in the tight 5 is an incredibly rare feat and one that deserves a lot of credit.
The fact the coaches have that trust in him already says a lot. Was also the leading tackler for the All Blacks with 17 if I remember correctly. Massive effort from the big man.
Main thing is he did his core roles well and shows he didn’t look out of place. Super stoked for the guy. Also glad I don’t look silly after pumping him up since he arrived at Otago.
Huge future ahead in the black jersey, locking depth is starting to look like a strength.
Yup him and Lio-Willie had solid outings. Certainly the best out of the new brigade.
@African-Monkey said in 2025 All Blacks v France series:
@Landers92 said in 2025 All Blacks v France series:
This has probably been said in the match thread which I haven’t yet read but I’d like to post it in here anyway without sounding like too much of a homer.
For Fabian Holland to go 80 minutes on test debut in the tight 5 is an incredibly rare feat and one that deserves a lot of credit.
The fact the coaches have that trust in him already says a lot. Was also the leading tackler for the All Blacks with 17 if I remember correctly. Massive effort from the big man.
Main thing is he did his core roles well and shows he didn’t look out of place. Super stoked for the guy. Also glad I don’t look silly after pumping him up since he arrived at Otago.
Huge future ahead in the black jersey, locking depth is starting to look like a strength.
Yup him and Lio-Willie had solid outings. Certainly the best out of the new brigade.
For sure. Forgot to add Holland had the most line out wins with 6 as well
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This has probably been said in the match thread which I haven’t yet read but I’d like to post it in here anyway without sounding like too much of a homer.
For Fabian Holland to go 80 minutes on test debut in the tight 5 is an incredibly rare feat and one that deserves a lot of credit.
The fact the coaches have that trust in him already says a lot. Was also the leading tackler for the All Blacks with 17 if I remember correctly. Massive effort from the big man.
Main thing is he did his core roles well and shows he didn’t look out of place. Super stoked for the guy. Also glad I don’t look silly after pumping him up since he arrived at Otago.
Huge future ahead in the black jersey, locking depth is starting to look like a strength.
@Landers92 Scott Robertson didn't pick out many individual players in his post-match press conference but he did praise Fabian Holland effort, his "massive engine" and his tackling.
The first of many Tests from the big man I'm sure.
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@Bovidae said in 2025 All Blacks v France series:
This photo shows how under-sized our loosies are:
Being the glass is half full fellow that I am it's also a case of a fucken tall prop and a tall lock.
Kirifi is a unit but yes, an undersized one. There's a place for him provided there's bigger options at 6 and 8.
Is Holland noted as a ball carrier ? I thought he went to ground pretty easy a few times last night. Certainly no Eben Etzebeth in that department ( yet )
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@Bovidae said in 2025 All Blacks v France series:
This photo shows how under-sized our loosies are:
Being the glass is half full fellow that I am it's also a case of a fucken tall prop and a tall lock.
Kirifi is a unit but yes, an undersized one. There's a place for him provided there's bigger options at 6 and 8.
Is Holland noted as a ball carrier ? I thought he went to ground pretty easy a few times last night. Certainly no Eben Etzebeth in that department ( yet )
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@KiwiMurph said in 2025 All Blacks v France series:
@MN5 said in 2025 All Blacks v France series:
Is Holland noted as a ball carrier ?
Not really.
Looks more Luke Romano than Brodie Retallick to me at this stage. I am just not seeing what others keep saying they do.
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@KiwiMurph said in 2025 All Blacks v France series:
@MN5 said in 2025 All Blacks v France series:
Is Holland noted as a ball carrier ?
Not really.
Looks more Luke Romano than Brodie Retallick to me at this stage. I am just not seeing what others keep saying they do.
@ARHS said in 2025 All Blacks v France series:
@KiwiMurph said in 2025 All Blacks v France series:
@MN5 said in 2025 All Blacks v France series:
Is Holland noted as a ball carrier ?
Not really.
Looks more Luke Romano than Brodie Retallick to me at this stage. I am just not seeing what others keep saying they do.
His workrate and lineout work is more Retallick/Whitelock than Romano.
He's got good hands, and while not a powerful explosive runner, he carried reasonably for the ABXV last year, notably supporting close in breaks to maintain momentum and giving a few nice offloads. -
@KiwiMurph said in 2025 All Blacks v France series:
@MN5 said in 2025 All Blacks v France series:
Is Holland noted as a ball carrier ?
Not really.
Looks more Luke Romano than Brodie Retallick to me at this stage. I am just not seeing what others keep saying they do.
@ARHS said in 2025 All Blacks v France series:
@KiwiMurph said in 2025 All Blacks v France series:
@MN5 said in 2025 All Blacks v France series:
Is Holland noted as a ball carrier ?
Not really.
Looks more Luke Romano than Brodie Retallick to me at this stage. I am just not seeing what others keep saying they do.
He's huge, he's money in the lineouts and restarts, good handling in phase play, he can scrum and he has a big motor. There's plenty to like without the ball running.
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He is quite decent in open play. Has made some storming runs for both Otago and the Landers. Has decent pace off the mark.
Here is one that stuck out from me, a few seasons ago. From around 2.20 in -
His close in ball running will improve.
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Posters on this Fern crack me up, a lot of people on here are so quick to judge. Cant we just let some of these young guys play at least 10 tests before piling on judgement. Test footy isn’t Super Rugby, let’s just give some of these guys a chance before proclaiming they aren’t good at a certain component of the game. They’ve been picked for a reason so let’s have a bit of faith in the selectors that they’ll get the best out of them over time.
Holland for example was very solid in his first test, definitely not the finished product but you’d have to be an idiot to think he was at such a young age.
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Posters on this Fern crack me up, a lot of people on here are so quick to judge. Cant we just let some of these young guys play at least 10 tests before piling on judgement. Test footy isn’t Super Rugby, let’s just give some of these guys a chance before proclaiming they aren’t good at a certain component of the game. They’ve been picked for a reason so let’s have a bit of faith in the selectors that they’ll get the best out of them over time.
Holland for example was very solid in his first test, definitely not the finished product but you’d have to be an idiot to think he was at such a young age.
@Canes4life said in 2025 All Blacks v France series:
Posters on this Fern crack me up, a lot of people on here are so quick to judge. Cant we just let some of these young guys play at least 10 tests before piling on judgement.
About 10% of players who play for the All Blacks have 1 cap, slightly over 1 in 3 have 5 caps or fewer.
Perform or you'll be moved on. The All Blacks isn't a nice, safe environment for players to discover themselves. It's a brutal arena. Perform at an elite level or move on. Excellence is demanded.
Judging players is what All Blacks fans have been doing since 1903 and long may that continue!
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@Canes4life said in 2025 All Blacks v France series:
Posters on this Fern crack me up, a lot of people on here are so quick to judge. Cant we just let some of these young guys play at least 10 tests before piling on judgement.
About 10% of players who play for the All Blacks have 1 cap, slightly over 1 in 3 have 5 caps or fewer.
Perform or you'll be moved on. The All Blacks isn't a nice, safe environment for players to discover themselves. It's a brutal arena. Perform at an elite level or move on. Excellence is demanded.
Judging players is what All Blacks fans have been doing since 1903 and long may that continue!
@sparky said in 2025 All Blacks v France series:
@Canes4life said in 2025 All Blacks v France series:
Posters on this Fern crack me up, a lot of people on here are so quick to judge. Cant we just let some of these young guys play at least 10 tests before piling on judgement.
About 10% of players who play for the All Blacks have 1 cap, slightly over 1 in 3 have 5 caps or fewer.
Perform or you'll be moved on. The All Blacks isn't a nice, safe environment for players to discover themselves. It's a brutal arena. Perform at an elite level or move on. Excellence is demanded.
Judging players is what All Blacks fans have been doing since 1903 and long may that continue!
Yeah but most of those players are the Brett Cameron’s and Dallas McLeod’s of this world who only really got a chance because of injuries.
When we are judging players that could be 50-100+ test All Blacks, I’m happy to give them more time in the saddle. No one is the finished product after a couple of tests. If we judged Nonu (as an example) so quickly then he would have never become arguably the greatest 12 we’ve ever seen in World Rugby.
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@sparky said in 2025 All Blacks v France series:
@Canes4life said in 2025 All Blacks v France series:
Posters on this Fern crack me up, a lot of people on here are so quick to judge. Cant we just let some of these young guys play at least 10 tests before piling on judgement.
About 10% of players who play for the All Blacks have 1 cap, slightly over 1 in 3 have 5 caps or fewer.
Perform or you'll be moved on. The All Blacks isn't a nice, safe environment for players to discover themselves. It's a brutal arena. Perform at an elite level or move on. Excellence is demanded.
Judging players is what All Blacks fans have been doing since 1903 and long may that continue!
Yeah but most of those players are the Brett Cameron’s and Dallas McLeod’s of this world who only really got a chance because of injuries.
When we are judging players that could be 50-100+ test All Blacks, I’m happy to give them more time in the saddle. No one is the finished product after a couple of tests. If we judged Nonu (as an example) so quickly then he would have never become arguably the greatest 12 we’ve ever seen in World Rugby.
Using your example, Ma'a Nonu was dropped a few times and yeah I was unhappy about each of those and argued against them on here at the time if I remember correctly.
But each time he got dropped, he came back stronger and more professional. It was interesting reading the other day Ben White (half back for Toulon, Scotland and the British and Irish Lions) say that he's never encountered a more professional Rugby player than Ma'a Nonu.
That's what the brutal All Blacks environment produces. Skilled athletes who are craftsmen.
