All Blacks v France I
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I'm amused that we expect a debutant lock born 22 years ago and rushed into the national team as soon as possible, being compared to two of the greatest ever AB locks. And he didn't spend all his life playing rugby in NZ-he arrived here about 4 or 5 years ago, didn't he?
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France I:
I'm amused that we expect a debutant lock born 22 years ago and rushed into the national team as soon as possible, being compared to two of the greatest ever AB locks. And he didn't spend all his life playing rugby in NZ-he arrived here about 4 or 5 years ago, didn't he?
Getting rinsed on the fern is part and parcel of being an allblack.
He should have done his homework before he signed up for the gig.
If you want the rainbow you need to put up with a bit of rain Fabian.
Welcome to test footy…on and off the field son
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
Holland's received a lot of praise but I was a little bit underwhelmed.
He didn't really put a foot wrong but he also didn't do anything to suggest he's a better option that Lord or Tuipulotu at this stage. I'm absolutely not saying he shouldn't be in there, I'm as keen to see him given a go as anyone else and I'd love for him to be the new Brodie Retallick, but I've not yet (yet is key, obviously) seen anything from Holland to suggest he's anything more than a safe pair of hands in the second row.
Again, very happy to get him getting some minutes and would certainly keep giving him time in the saddle, but it's a bit unfair that we expect the loose forward to all be dynamic carriers of the ball or threats at the breakdown when the bar for Holland seems so low?
Topping the tackle charts with 17, topped the lineouts won with 7 and carried 13 times
When you're used as the main lineout jumper, it makes sense you win the most lineouts... That's sort of the bare minimum for a lock.
As for the rest? Well, as I say, loose forwards on here seem to get judged to a completely different standard. He made 1.38 metres per carry - 17th in the squad and 8th amongst the forwards. Ethan Blackadder would get raked over the coals for that.
As I say, I'm happy to persist with him because he's young, but I don't think he did anything particularly notable on Saturday.
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
Holland's received a lot of praise but I was a little bit underwhelmed.
He didn't really put a foot wrong but he also didn't do anything to suggest he's a better option that Lord or Tuipulotu at this stage. I'm absolutely not saying he shouldn't be in there, I'm as keen to see him given a go as anyone else and I'd love for him to be the new Brodie Retallick, but I've not yet (yet is key, obviously) seen anything from Holland to suggest he's anything more than a safe pair of hands in the second row.
Again, very happy to get him getting some minutes and would certainly keep giving him time in the saddle, but it's a bit unfair that we expect the loose forward to all be dynamic carriers of the ball or threats at the breakdown when the bar for Holland seems so low?
Topping the tackle charts with 17, topped the lineouts won with 7 and carried 13 times
When you're used as the main lineout jumper, it makes sense you win the most lineouts... That's sort of the bare minimum for a lock.
As for the rest? Well, as I say, loose forwards on here seem to get judged to a completely different standard. He made 1.38 metres per carry - 17th in the squad and 8th amongst the forwards. Ethan Blackadder would get raked over the coals for that.
As I say, I'm happy to persist with him because he's young, but I don't think he did anything particularly notable on Saturday.
Fucking hell
tough crowd -
@frugby said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
Holland's received a lot of praise but I was a little bit underwhelmed.
He didn't really put a foot wrong but he also didn't do anything to suggest he's a better option that Lord or Tuipulotu at this stage. I'm absolutely not saying he shouldn't be in there, I'm as keen to see him given a go as anyone else and I'd love for him to be the new Brodie Retallick, but I've not yet (yet is key, obviously) seen anything from Holland to suggest he's anything more than a safe pair of hands in the second row.
Again, very happy to get him getting some minutes and would certainly keep giving him time in the saddle, but it's a bit unfair that we expect the loose forward to all be dynamic carriers of the ball or threats at the breakdown when the bar for Holland seems so low?
He dominated the lineout in a way Tuipulotu couldn’t, and Lord hasn’t. He works hard and makes a ton of tackles (more than both those two).
What are you looking for from him? Locks don’t tend to make line breaks…
I hugely disagree about him dominating the lineout. I think Tuipulotu or Lord would've gone just as well against that French side.
From what we saw against France, Holland is basically the Blackadder of locks. Does all the basics well, industrious, big engine, not necessarily dominant at all. I think there's time for him to grow into that more.
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I think doing the basics right is incredibly important but I also expect All Blacks do be doing more than just the basics. As I say, hopefully Holland develops into a player that's a bit more than just a safe pair of hands.
Again, I just think there's an interesting double standard between what we expect from a lock (in particular, this lock) and what we expect from any of our loose forwards. Retallick and Whitelock were certainly much more than just busy and accurate (and from right at the starts of their careers too). Holland may get there after only a couple of games too.
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
Again, I just think there's an interesting double standard between what we expect from a lock (in particular, this lock) and what we expect from any of our loose forwards.
It's not a double standard - they are completely different roles.
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@frugby said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
Holland's received a lot of praise but I was a little bit underwhelmed.
He didn't really put a foot wrong but he also didn't do anything to suggest he's a better option that Lord or Tuipulotu at this stage. I'm absolutely not saying he shouldn't be in there, I'm as keen to see him given a go as anyone else and I'd love for him to be the new Brodie Retallick, but I've not yet (yet is key, obviously) seen anything from Holland to suggest he's anything more than a safe pair of hands in the second row.
Again, very happy to get him getting some minutes and would certainly keep giving him time in the saddle, but it's a bit unfair that we expect the loose forward to all be dynamic carriers of the ball or threats at the breakdown when the bar for Holland seems so low?
He dominated the lineout in a way Tuipulotu couldn’t, and Lord hasn’t. He works hard and makes a ton of tackles (more than both those two).
What are you looking for from him? Locks don’t tend to make line breaks…
I hugely disagree about him dominating the lineout. I think Tuipulotu or Lord would've gone just as well against that French side.
From what we saw against France, Holland is basically the Blackadder of locks. Does all the basics well, industrious, big engine, not necessarily dominant at all. I think there's time for him to grow into that more.
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
@frugby said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
I hugely disagree about him dominating the lineout. I think Tuipulotu or Lord would've gone just as well against that French side.Holland is basically the Blackadder of locks.
Holy shit I’ve officially heard it all now. This might go down as one of the worst takes of 2025 on the fern.
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this is a wild angle to take, we're being hyper critical of someone on debut for not doing anything wrong...just not being as awesome as some of the best locks in AB history
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@reprobate said in All Blacks v France I:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v France I:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France I:
For the same reason as savea i reckon I'm close to done with DMac.
I can understand the allure, when it goes right it goes very right, but is it balanced out by the untold errors and created pressure?
I'm quite torn on DMac and Beauden, I caused a bit of a stir when I said picking Beauden for this test wasn't all that controversial as I think they are much of a muchness really. Personally I'd have DMac starting at 10 just on account of his kicking game, as we can struggle to get out of our half when on the back foot otherwise.
But outside of that both players go from the sublime to the ridiculous far too often for test match footy.
Hard disagree. McKenzie kicked the ball away badly once (and fortuitously grabbed the rebound). He also threw an intercept - which really doesn't count, as it was under penalty advantage so why not.
Aside from that , his decision-making was pretty conservative - he took contact in preference to trying too much on several occasions.My takeaway was he danced around and then flat footed just popped it to a stationary forward to get smashed.
I'm not as forgiving of the intercept since he took a poor option and managed to single out the only French defender with at least three other All Blacks, including an unmarked Ardie inside of him.
Again, a player best suited for the final 20mins in the hope we've created space.
@antipodean said in All Blacks v France I:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v France I:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v France I:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France I:
For the same reason as savea i reckon I'm close to done with DMac.
I can understand the allure, when it goes right it goes very right, but is it balanced out by the untold errors and created pressure?
I'm quite torn on DMac and Beauden, I caused a bit of a stir when I said picking Beauden for this test wasn't all that controversial as I think they are much of a muchness really. Personally I'd have DMac starting at 10 just on account of his kicking game, as we can struggle to get out of our half when on the back foot otherwise.
But outside of that both players go from the sublime to the ridiculous far too often for test match footy.
Hard disagree. McKenzie kicked the ball away badly once (and fortuitously grabbed the rebound). He also threw an intercept - which really doesn't count, as it was under penalty advantage so why not.
Aside from that , his decision-making was pretty conservative - he took contact in preference to trying too much on several occasions.My takeaway was he danced around and then flat footed just popped it to a stationary forward to get smashed.
An the same thing can be described as: he looked for gaps, and made/took a few half-gaps - and when there wasn't one he recycled and maintained possession.
And are you going to rubbish other players for similar/worse poor options? How about Roigard for ignoring Jordie inside him who would have scored? And for his bizarre kick to nobody on attack?
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@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
@frugby said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
I hugely disagree about him dominating the lineout. I think Tuipulotu or Lord would've gone just as well against that French side.Holland is basically the Blackadder of locks.
Holy shit I’ve officially heard it all now. This might go down as one of the worst takes of 2025 on the fern.
@Landers92 said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
@frugby said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
I hugely disagree about him dominating the lineout. I think Tuipulotu or Lord would've gone just as well against that French side.Holland is basically the Blackadder of locks.
Holy shit I’ve officially heard it all now. This might go down as one of the worst takes of 2025 on the fern.
Not really, the fern hates people who work hard. We want highlights!
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@booboo said in All Blacks v France I:
@Chris said in All Blacks v France I:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France I:
@Chris said in All Blacks v France I:
Finau for a big unit really added no impact in this game,He was passive in the tackle he got knocked back a few times.And went no where forward.
Even though Vai'i maybe found out as a bit slow at 6 in the harder games, he was 100% better than Finau.Hard disagree. He dropped an early one cold and I was ready to write him off.
But after that he ran fucking hard and made yards in tight. He has a future i think.
Nah didn’t see any of that to me he was pretty weak.
People often see what they look for.
that is true both ways but I have no real option on Finau I hoped he would be the player we need at 6, but I was disappointed again on what I saw as a weak performance again.
@Chris said in All Blacks v France I:
@booboo said in All Blacks v France I:
@Chris said in All Blacks v France I:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France I:
@Chris said in All Blacks v France I:
Finau for a big unit really added no impact in this game,He was passive in the tackle he got knocked back a few times.And went no where forward.
Even though Vai'i maybe found out as a bit slow at 6 in the harder games, he was 100% better than Finau.Hard disagree. He dropped an early one cold and I was ready to write him off.
But after that he ran fucking hard and made yards in tight. He has a future i think.
Nah didn’t see any of that to me h8e was pretty weak.
People often see what they look for.
that is true both ways but I have no real option on Finau I hoped he would be the player we need at 6, but I was disappointed again on what I saw as a weak performance again.
Apart from the dropped ball he was good. Made some good carries over the gain line, won a turnover, won a couple of lineouts, made some good cleans. Overall a balanced effort.
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@Chris said in All Blacks v France I:
@booboo said in All Blacks v France I:
@Chris said in All Blacks v France I:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France I:
@Chris said in All Blacks v France I:
Finau for a big unit really added no impact in this game,He was passive in the tackle he got knocked back a few times.And went no where forward.
Even though Vai'i maybe found out as a bit slow at 6 in the harder games, he was 100% better than Finau.Hard disagree. He dropped an early one cold and I was ready to write him off.
But after that he ran fucking hard and made yards in tight. He has a future i think.
Nah didn’t see any of that to me h8e was pretty weak.
People often see what they look for.
that is true both ways but I have no real option on Finau I hoped he would be the player we need at 6, but I was disappointed again on what I saw as a weak performance again.
Apart from the dropped ball he was good. Made some good carries over the gain line, won a turnover, won a couple of lineouts, made some good cleans. Overall a balanced effort.
@brodean said in All Blacks v France I:
@Chris said in All Blacks v France I:
@booboo said in All Blacks v France I:
@Chris said in All Blacks v France I:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France I:
@Chris said in All Blacks v France I:
Finau for a big unit really added no impact in this game,He was passive in the tackle he got knocked back a few times.And went no where forward.
Even though Vai'i maybe found out as a bit slow at 6 in the harder games, he was 100% better than Finau.Hard disagree. He dropped an early one cold and I was ready to write him off.
But after that he ran fucking hard and made yards in tight. He has a future i think.
Nah didn’t see any of that to me h8e was pretty weak.
People often see what they look for.
that is true both ways but I have no real option on Finau I hoped he would be the player we need at 6, but I was disappointed again on what I saw as a weak performance again.
Apart from the dropped ball he was good. Made some good carries over the gain line, won a turnover, won a couple of lineouts, made some good cleans. Overall a balanced effort.
Not how I saw it.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks v France I:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v France I:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v France I:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France I:
For the same reason as savea i reckon I'm close to done with DMac.
I can understand the allure, when it goes right it goes very right, but is it balanced out by the untold errors and created pressure?
I'm quite torn on DMac and Beauden, I caused a bit of a stir when I said picking Beauden for this test wasn't all that controversial as I think they are much of a muchness really. Personally I'd have DMac starting at 10 just on account of his kicking game, as we can struggle to get out of our half when on the back foot otherwise.
But outside of that both players go from the sublime to the ridiculous far too often for test match footy.
Hard disagree. McKenzie kicked the ball away badly once (and fortuitously grabbed the rebound). He also threw an intercept - which really doesn't count, as it was under penalty advantage so why not.
Aside from that , his decision-making was pretty conservative - he took contact in preference to trying too much on several occasions.My takeaway was he danced around and then flat footed just popped it to a stationary forward to get smashed.
An the same thing can be described as: he looked for gaps, and made/took a few half-gaps - and when there wasn't one he recycled and maintained possession.
And are you going to rubbish other players for similar/worse poor options? How about Roigard for ignoring Jordie inside him who would have scored? And for his bizarre kick to nobody on attack?
@reprobate said in All Blacks v France I:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v France I:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v France I:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v France I:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France I:
For the same reason as savea i reckon I'm close to done with DMac.
I can understand the allure, when it goes right it goes very right, but is it balanced out by the untold errors and created pressure?
I'm quite torn on DMac and Beauden, I caused a bit of a stir when I said picking Beauden for this test wasn't all that controversial as I think they are much of a muchness really. Personally I'd have DMac starting at 10 just on account of his kicking game, as we can struggle to get out of our half when on the back foot otherwise.
But outside of that both players go from the sublime to the ridiculous far too often for test match footy.
Hard disagree. McKenzie kicked the ball away badly once (and fortuitously grabbed the rebound). He also threw an intercept - which really doesn't count, as it was under penalty advantage so why not.
Aside from that , his decision-making was pretty conservative - he took contact in preference to trying too much on several occasions.My takeaway was he danced around and then flat footed just popped it to a stationary forward to get smashed.
An the same thing can be described as: he looked for gaps, and made/took a few half-gaps - and when there wasn't one he recycled and maintained possession.
And are you going to rubbish other players for similar/worse poor options? How about Roigard for ignoring Jordie inside him who would have scored? And for his bizarre kick to nobody on attack?
Oh now I see how this game is played: If I respond to a comment at odds with my opinion I then need to apply that analysis/ criticism to every other player too.
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I felt that tackle by Tupaea on Taofifenua was a sliding door moment and potentially saved Razor's butt given how easily they were scoring points when they got into our 22.
Great work from Tupaea.
@brodean said in All Blacks v France I:
I felt that tackle by Tupaea on Taofifenua was a sliding door moment and potentially saved Razor's butt given how easily they were scoring points when they got into our 22.
Great work from Tupaea.
So he did his job to make a tackle. We applauding guys who make their tackles now?
This take is courtesy of the Fern logic
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@brodean said in All Blacks v France I:
I felt that tackle by Tupaea on Taofifenua was a sliding door moment and potentially saved Razor's butt given how easily they were scoring points when they got into our 22.
Great work from Tupaea.
So he did his job to make a tackle. We applauding guys who make their tackles now?
This take is courtesy of the Fern logic
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v France I:
@brodean said in All Blacks v France I:
I felt that tackle by Tupaea on Taofifenua was a sliding door moment and potentially saved Razor's butt given how easily they were scoring points when they got into our 22.
Great work from Tupaea.
So he did his job to make a tackle. We applauding guys who make their tackles now?
This take is courtesy of the Fern logic
The guy is over 2m, 140kg and had worked up some pace. Tupaea tackled him front on so he turned over the ball. He did better than a bunch of our forwards did at stopping those big french forwards in their tracks.
That guy has smashed through our line in previous tests.
It was a great tackle 5 or 10 metres from the try line
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v France I:
@brodean said in All Blacks v France I:
I felt that tackle by Tupaea on Taofifenua was a sliding door moment and potentially saved Razor's butt given how easily they were scoring points when they got into our 22.
Great work from Tupaea.
So he did his job to make a tackle. We applauding guys who make their tackles now?
This take is courtesy of the Fern logic
The guy is over 2m, 140kg and had worked up some pace. Tupaea tackled him front on so he turned over the ball. He did better than a bunch of our forwards did at stopping those big french forwards in their tracks.
That guy has smashed through our line in previous tests.
It was a great tackle 5 or 10 metres from the try line
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Can someone explain to me why, when we get penalty advantage, we try some low percentage bullshit the very first phase, more often than not immediately turning it over. We do this despite the very firm knowledge the ref will give you 15 free phases if you want them.
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Can someone explain to me why, when we get penalty advantage, we try some low percentage bullshit the very first phase, more often than not immediately turning it over. We do this despite the very firm knowledge the ref will give you 15 free phases if you want them.
@mariner4life smarts...or lack thereof.
Especially when on the 22 or closer, you know it's pretty much going until you score, lose possession or opposition offend again
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Can someone explain to me why, when we get penalty advantage, we try some low percentage bullshit the very first phase, more often than not immediately turning it over. We do this despite the very firm knowledge the ref will give you 15 free phases if you want them.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France I:
Can someone explain to me why, when we get penalty advantage, we try some low percentage bullshit the very first phase, more often than not immediately turning it over. We do this despite the very firm knowledge the ref will give you 15 free phases if you want them.
https://media.tenor.com/0gqwZ0fXVB4AAAAM/forrest-gump-stupid.gif
We just aren't a particularly smart side right now. Reminds me of the AB sides that used to get pumped by the Gregan Larkham Wallabies. We shoot ourselves in the foot a lot. Hopefully we will wise up in the near future. Not gonna hold my breath
