All Blacks 2025
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@reprobate France are a Teir 1 nation and nearly beat us despite leaving so many at home, as they have the best depth of any Tier 1 side right now. That's not the same as a warm up against Samoa, clearly.
@No-Quarter They need to change their approach. The All Blacks still act as if inexperienced players should only get game time against minnows or when injuries force their hand. We always hear about the need to rest players and avoid overloading them. So why not rotate in one or two promising players each game, giving them a chance against quality opposition alongside the established core? If they handle it, reward them with another shot straight away. If not, let them bide their time until the next opening.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
We lost last week and the rowdy consensus here seemed to be that all the Ass. Coaches except Ryan should be rolled
TBF that's not a horrible take given the tight 5 have been the only area that has functioned well.
We did score a sexy set piece try on the weekend, but the key pass was thrown by a loose forward, i think the backline/attack coach is still in the gun.
And if we take your developed players, they are basically all forwards. The back line revolution has been to move the long time centre back to the wing, and that's it. Which would be fine if they were performing, but they are not.
My conspiracy theory is that Razor is loving BB's sub-par play as it will make swapping him for Mounga a lot easier. If he brought in someone who played well, then poor old Richie won't get a gig.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
And if we take your developed players, they are basically all forwards. The back line revolution has been to move the long time centre back to the wing, and that's it. Which would be fine if they were performing, but they are not.
My conspiracy theory is that Razor is loving BB's sub-par play as it will make swapping him for Mounga a lot easier. If he brought in someone who played well, then poor old Richie won't get a gig.
At halfback, the first three are Roigard, Ratima and Hotham - all of whom happen to be injured. Roigard got capped under Fozzie, but he's still a newbie. Christie was gone until the injury crisis brought him back along with Preston.
First five - last year DMac got a bunch of test starts - prior to that he'd had five starts - I think - at first five. The die is already cast there.
Havili's been moved on, looks like ALB might be in the process of being. Proctor appears to be the first choice centre now - that's new - they'll have to keep Rieko in the frame because the centre well looks pretty dry beyond him. Tupaea making a resurgence. Timoci has entered the frame. Jordan has shifted from the wing to fullback (though plenty here are trying to retrograde that step!). TeleĆ” is gone. Narawa got the nod ahead of Reece.
There's certainly movement.
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Smith and TJ retired, they weren't moved on.
Yes, Havili was moved on, but he was just a squaddie anyway. ALB was still in the team a fortnight ago.
Jordan to 15 was always going to happen, especially when they decided BB was the 10 again.
Reece was kept on despite being shithouse last year.I am mainly fucked off because bringing BB back in to the 10 shirt has been pretty much a disaster bailed out by a really fucking good pack, and our backline looking completely devoid of threat outside of a couple of Will Jordan individual moments.
If we had competent coaching we would be engineering opportunities for Will in space as often as we could. Look at Australia and Sua'ali'i or France and LBB -
@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@ShaquilleOatmeal But, we have capped quite a few - there's nearly a whole team of new caps - except at wing, where Narawa had only played a couple of tests under Fozzie.
Tosi, Norris
Bell, McAllister
Darry, Holland
Sititi, Lakai, Lio-Willie, Kirifi, Parker
Ratima, Hotham
Plummer
Tavatavanawai
Proctor
LoveThere's perhaps a half dozen players in our squad whose age is a potential issue for the next RWC - Taylor, SBarret, Tuipolotou, BBarrett, Ioane, Reece:
- and we've got four capped hookers behind Taylor;
- Vaai, Holland, Darry and Lord as young locks
- Mo'unga and DMac at first five
- would be good to build some wing depth, but we have Clarke, Big Leicester and Narawa - with Carter in the frame and I'm pretty sure Tangitau will be soon, now he's fit again.
I think we're jumping at shadows talking about lack of development.
Not the way I see it mate - a lot of the players on your list have had fuck-all opportunity, or only made the squad at all due to injury.
Proctor has had a decent go. Holland too. Tosi as a bench guy. That's it really.@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@ShaquilleOatmeal But, we have capped quite a few - there's nearly a whole team of new caps - except at wing, where Narawa had only played a couple of tests under Fozzie.
Tosi, Norris
Bell, McAllister
Darry, Holland
Sititi, Lakai, Lio-Willie, Kirifi, Parker
Ratima, Hotham
Plummer
Tavatavanawai
Proctor
LoveThere's perhaps a half dozen players in our squad whose age is a potential issue for the next RWC - Taylor, SBarret, Tuipolotou, BBarrett, Ioane, Reece:
- and we've got four capped hookers behind Taylor;
- Vaai, Holland, Darry and Lord as young locks
- Mo'unga and DMac at first five
- would be good to build some wing depth, but we have Clarke, Big Leicester and Narawa - with Carter in the frame and I'm pretty sure Tangitau will be soon, now he's fit again.
I think we're jumping at shadows talking about lack of development.
Not the way I see it mate - a lot of the players on your list have had fuck-all opportunity, or only made the squad at all due to injury.
Proctor has had a decent go. Holland too. Tosi as a bench guy. That's it really.Sititi and Parker both started the last test, Ratima clearly in the frame.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
They're planning on going to RWC2027 with Mo'unga, Beaudy and DMac as their three first fives. Do we need another option?
So that's it is it?
Shop is all closed up?A then 36 year old is already locked in, in apparently the best rugby team in the world.
One would hope we could show a little more ambition in unearthing young talent.
@Frank said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
They're planning on going to RWC2027 with Mo'unga, Beaudy and DMac as their three first fives. Do we need another option?
So that's it is it?
Shop is all closed up?A then 36 year old is already locked in, in apparently the best rugby team in the world.
One would hope we could show a little more ambition in unearthing young talent.
The shop's never completely closed - especially if someone comes along to bash the door down. But, who is really commanding a place ahead of these three? It's clearly the plan.
It wouldn't surprise me (there it is, Frank) if the coaches'preferred next cab off the rank is the injured Perofeta. Love wasn't really first choice for his franchise (I think he's covering for DMac's role) - Reihana? Jacombe?
But, plans are becoming clear. Barring injury, I reckon I can confidently name 75 percent of our RWC 2027 squad already.
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Yeah I have to agree with @Chris-B, I am no Razor fan but he's done a pretty good job developing new talent overall given the complete lack of 'easy' games the ABs get these days. People talk about 10 a lot, but other than maybe starting DMac again I don't see any other options. Plummer was adequate behind a dominant Blues pack (dominance you rarely get the next level up), Reihana is nowhere near test level, Love gets talked about but hasn't even been trusted with the keys to the Canes backline for a season yet. Unless Love starts playing 10 at Super level, BB, DMac and Mo'unga are likely it for us this WC - and TBH we could do a lot worse.
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My biggest gripe with Razor is his bias against Blues loose forwards, we would have done a lot better if they had been in the squad the past 2 seasons instead of some of the undersized blokes we've had.
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@No-Quarter They need to change their approach. The All Blacks still act as if inexperienced players should only get game time against minnows or when injuries force their hand. We always hear about the need to rest players and avoid overloading them. So why not rotate in one or two promising players each game, giving them a chance against quality opposition alongside the established core? If they handle it, reward them with another shot straight away. If not, let them bide their time until the next opening.
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter They need to change their approach. The All Blacks still act as if inexperienced players should only get game time against minnows or when injuries force their hand. We always hear about the need to rest players and avoid overloading them. So why not rotate in one or two promising players each game, giving them a chance against quality opposition alongside the established core? If they handle it, reward them with another shot straight away. If not, let them bide their time until the next opening.
Yeah they do need to be braver now, they have no choice, and that's something Razor mentioned leading into this season. I just think it's tough, for example the Canes play Love at fullback, as AB coach do you hand him the keys at 10 against a Tier 1 nation on potential alone? We have managed to develop quite a lot of young talent recently, it's just most of that has been in the pack. We don't actually have a lot of talent in the backline right now, certainly not compared to years gone by.
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@Goffman said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Chris-B the public doesn't give the ABs free swings though.
I know - it's a big part of the problem! There is very little to encourage taking risks.
We lost last week and the rowdy consensus here seemed to be that all the Ass. Coaches except Ryan should be rolled.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@Goffman said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Chris-B the public doesn't give the ABs free swings though.
I know - it's a big part of the problem! There is very little to encourage taking risks.
We lost last week and the rowdy consensus here seemed to be that all the Ass. Coaches except Ryan should be rolled.
We won and I still think Holland and Hansen should be justifying their continued employment.
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Yeah I have to agree with @Chris-B, I am no Razor fan but he's done a pretty good job developing new talent overall given the complete lack of 'easy' games the ABs get these days. People talk about 10 a lot, but other than maybe starting DMac again I don't see any other options. Plummer was adequate behind a dominant Blues pack (dominance you rarely get the next level up), Reihana is nowhere near test level, Love gets talked about but hasn't even been trusted with the keys to the Canes backline for a season yet. Unless Love starts playing 10 at Super level, BB, DMac and Mo'unga are likely it for us this WC - and TBH we could do a lot worse.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
Yeah I have to agree with @Chris-B, I am no Razor fan but he's done a pretty good job developing new talent overall given the complete lack of 'easy' games the ABs get these days. People talk about 10 a lot, but other than maybe starting DMac again I don't see any other options. Plummer was adequate behind a dominant Blues pack (dominance you rarely get the next level up), Reihana is nowhere near test level, Love gets talked about but hasn't even been trusted with the keys to the Canes backline for a season yet. Unless Love starts playing 10 at Super level, BB, DMac and Mo'unga are likely it for us this WC - and TBH we could do a lot worse.
This is it in a nutshell. I am as keen as anybody to move on from BB, but the options are very bare, to the point where if we chuck someone in against the calibre of opposition we have been playing it could be counter-productive for the team and the individual.
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Smith and TJ retired, they weren't moved on.
Yes, Havili was moved on, but he was just a squaddie anyway. ALB was still in the team a fortnight ago.
Jordan to 15 was always going to happen, especially when they decided BB was the 10 again.
Reece was kept on despite being shithouse last year.I am mainly fucked off because bringing BB back in to the 10 shirt has been pretty much a disaster bailed out by a really fucking good pack, and our backline looking completely devoid of threat outside of a couple of Will Jordan individual moments.
If we had competent coaching we would be engineering opportunities for Will in space as often as we could. Look at Australia and Sua'ali'i or France and LBB@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
I am mainly fucked off because bringing BB back in to the 10 shirt has been pretty much a disaster bailed out by a really fucking good pack, and our backline looking completely devoid of threat outside of a couple of Will Jordan individual moments.
If we had competent coaching we would be engineering opportunities for Will in space as often as we could. Look at Australia and Sua'ali'i or France and LBBIt's the tragedy of Will's AB career that he's spent almost the entire time playing under hopeless coaches, with dud first fives, midfielders manufactured from wing and fullback who can barely catch and pass and the same dud first five at fullback. In a half decent AB team he'd have scored a hundred test tries by now.
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Pithy.
But imagine if we created play for him. He's a genuine freak of a player. -
I not sure if BB is as bad as some seem to think. Thought he went ok on weekend, I know it's trendy online to get into any Barrett, but he's the best we got. Anyone suggesting Love at 10 (and I a fan of his) is perhaps just a little loopy. He has played about 3 games at super there, and no way is he even close to be a 10 at test level. I would personally have Jacomb, Reihana etc ahead of him, because they have played there. Same as Christie, I saw nothing while he was on field on Sat to suggest that Preston is a better option, and I not really a Christie fan, but until Ratima or someone is fit, he's the best option.
Mind you that just my thinking, and I thought DMac at 15 and Jordan at 14 looked best we had this year. mainly because DMac took more high kicks than Jordan has at 15 all year.
But they just my opinions, and plenty obviously have others. -
@canefan to be fair to Beaudy - that 50:22 off his left foot was majestic!
I'm just jaded and bitter of the low percentage plays that give away possession without a corresponding territorial game.
Dollars to donuts if we dominated "contested kicks" WR would remove that aspect from the game. And that's precisely what we should be aiming for; forcing the powers that be to remove boring rugby.
As much as there's a rule you can't play on the ground, you shouldn't be able to play in the air. It's boring as fuck and I want to be entertained!
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan to be fair to Beaudy - that 50:22 off his left foot was majestic!
I'm just jaded and bitter of the low percentage plays that give away possession without a corresponding territorial game.
Dollars to donuts if we dominated "contested kicks" WR would remove that aspect from the game. And that's precisely what we should be aiming for; forcing the powers that be to remove boring rugby.
As much as there's a rule you can't play on the ground, you shouldn't be able to play in the air. It's boring as fuck and I want to be entertained!
In 2009, the Boks dominated us by putting the ball in the air. From 2010 to 2016ish, we were the best in the world under the high ball. During that period, no one played the shite box kicking game we have now.
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@No-Quarter They need to change their approach. The All Blacks still act as if inexperienced players should only get game time against minnows or when injuries force their hand. We always hear about the need to rest players and avoid overloading them. So why not rotate in one or two promising players each game, giving them a chance against quality opposition alongside the established core? If they handle it, reward them with another shot straight away. If not, let them bide their time until the next opening.
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter They need to change their approach. The All Blacks still act as if inexperienced players should only get game time against minnows or when injuries force their hand. We always hear about the need to rest players and avoid overloading them. So why not rotate in one or two promising players each game, giving them a chance against quality opposition alongside the established core? If they handle it, reward them with another shot straight away. If not, let them bide their time until the next opening.
Isn't that largely what's been happening?
Test 1: Holland, Lio-Willie, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi
Test 2: Vaa'i at 6. Narawa, Tavatavanawai. Another go for Holland, CLW, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi.
Test 3: Kirifi starting. Love, McAllister, Hotham. Another go for Holland, CLW, Tavatavanawai.
Test 4: VaaĆ at 6. Holland, Kirifi and Proctor all starting. Norris on the bench.
Test 5: Parker starting. Vaai, Holland, Proctor, Lord.
Test 6. Parker, Proctor, Narawa, Holland, Kirifi, Preston. -
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter They need to change their approach. The All Blacks still act as if inexperienced players should only get game time against minnows or when injuries force their hand. We always hear about the need to rest players and avoid overloading them. So why not rotate in one or two promising players each game, giving them a chance against quality opposition alongside the established core? If they handle it, reward them with another shot straight away. If not, let them bide their time until the next opening.
Isn't that largely what's been happening?
Test 1: Holland, Lio-Willie, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi
Test 2: Vaa'i at 6. Narawa, Tavatavanawai. Another go for Holland, CLW, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi.
Test 3: Kirifi starting. Love, McAllister, Hotham. Another go for Holland, CLW, Tavatavanawai.
Test 4: VaaĆ at 6. Holland, Kirifi and Proctor all starting. Norris on the bench.
Test 5: Parker starting. Vaai, Holland, Proctor, Lord.
Test 6. Parker, Proctor, Narawa, Holland, Kirifi, Preston.@Chris-B Not exactly. I'm talking about how to introduce promising players in general without having to wait to play Japan or an injury crisis. Holland and Proctor were straight in and haven't left, which is all good but they ran Holland into the ground. The third test was a B team so not those players amongst the core group. Lio-Willie and a number of those others had that game time, which has been an issue this year. Others had limited minutes off the bench.
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Outside of Barrett (Who has no credible uncapped option beneath him) and the wingers, who genuinely did people actually think should be dropped to 'develop players'
You aren't changing the pack, the halfbacks, midfielders or the fullbacks...
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@Chris-B Not exactly. I'm talking about how to introduce promising players in general without having to wait to play Japan or an injury crisis. Holland and Proctor were straight in and haven't left, which is all good but they ran Holland into the ground. The third test was a B team so not those players amongst the core group. Lio-Willie and a number of those others had that game time, which has been an issue this year. Others had limited minutes off the bench.
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@ShaquilleOatmeal Never going to be perfect and, to be fair, the ABs have always had dirty-dirties.
But, playing half a dozen guys with less than 10 test caps against the Boks in a massive test isn't really lacking in adventure.
@Chris-B Again, I'm giving an idea of how to give promising players meaningful game time without 'easy' games or waiting till players are out injured, rather than talking about specific games where players got 8 minutes of the bench.
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Outside of Barrett (Who has no credible uncapped option beneath him) and the wingers, who genuinely did people actually think should be dropped to 'develop players'
You aren't changing the pack, the halfbacks, midfielders or the fullbacks...
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
Outside of Barrett (Who has no credible uncapped option beneath him) and the wingers, who genuinely did people actually think should be dropped to 'develop players'
You aren't changing the pack, the halfbacks, midfielders or the fullbacks...
That's the thing. It is really only the backs past 9 (well, maybe more of a look past Christie, and maybe some query what happened to Paps) that people really want to see. And the argument is for the 23. Or even the 46. As we don't have great depth.
Barrett? Do you mean BB?
I am not arguing for them but there is DMac, Love, Perofeta. Oh and Plummer (but I'm not pushing that wheelbarrow).But really I think it is the wingers and the questions over midfield that people are questioning. And where it is best to play Jordan, DMac, and maybe Jordie.
