All Blacks 2025
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@Goffman said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Chris-B the public doesn't give the ABs free swings though.
I know - it's a big part of the problem! There is very little to encourage taking risks.
We lost last week and the rowdy consensus here seemed to be that all the Ass. Coaches except Ryan should be rolled.
We won and I still think Holland and Hansen should be justifying their continued employment.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
Yeah I have to agree with @Chris-B, I am no Razor fan but he's done a pretty good job developing new talent overall given the complete lack of 'easy' games the ABs get these days. People talk about 10 a lot, but other than maybe starting DMac again I don't see any other options. Plummer was adequate behind a dominant Blues pack (dominance you rarely get the next level up), Reihana is nowhere near test level, Love gets talked about but hasn't even been trusted with the keys to the Canes backline for a season yet. Unless Love starts playing 10 at Super level, BB, DMac and Mo'unga are likely it for us this WC - and TBH we could do a lot worse.
This is it in a nutshell. I am as keen as anybody to move on from BB, but the options are very bare, to the point where if we chuck someone in against the calibre of opposition we have been playing it could be counter-productive for the team and the individual.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
I am mainly fucked off because bringing BB back in to the 10 shirt has been pretty much a disaster bailed out by a really fucking good pack, and our backline looking completely devoid of threat outside of a couple of Will Jordan individual moments.
If we had competent coaching we would be engineering opportunities for Will in space as often as we could. Look at Australia and Sua'ali'i or France and LBBIt's the tragedy of Will's AB career that he's spent almost the entire time playing under hopeless coaches, with dud first fives, midfielders manufactured from wing and fullback who can barely catch and pass and the same dud first five at fullback. In a half decent AB team he'd have scored a hundred test tries by now.
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Pithy.
But imagine if we created play for him. He's a genuine freak of a player. -
I not sure if BB is as bad as some seem to think. Thought he went ok on weekend, I know it's trendy online to get into any Barrett, but he's the best we got. Anyone suggesting Love at 10 (and I a fan of his) is perhaps just a little loopy. He has played about 3 games at super there, and no way is he even close to be a 10 at test level. I would personally have Jacomb, Reihana etc ahead of him, because they have played there. Same as Christie, I saw nothing while he was on field on Sat to suggest that Preston is a better option, and I not really a Christie fan, but until Ratima or someone is fit, he's the best option.
Mind you that just my thinking, and I thought DMac at 15 and Jordan at 14 looked best we had this year. mainly because DMac took more high kicks than Jordan has at 15 all year.
But they just my opinions, and plenty obviously have others. -
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan to be fair to Beaudy - that 50:22 off his left foot was majestic!
I'm just jaded and bitter of the low percentage plays that give away possession without a corresponding territorial game.
Dollars to donuts if we dominated "contested kicks" WR would remove that aspect from the game. And that's precisely what we should be aiming for; forcing the powers that be to remove boring rugby.
As much as there's a rule you can't play on the ground, you shouldn't be able to play in the air. It's boring as fuck and I want to be entertained!
In 2009, the Boks dominated us by putting the ball in the air. From 2010 to 2016ish, we were the best in the world under the high ball. During that period, no one played the shite box kicking game we have now.
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@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter They need to change their approach. The All Blacks still act as if inexperienced players should only get game time against minnows or when injuries force their hand. We always hear about the need to rest players and avoid overloading them. So why not rotate in one or two promising players each game, giving them a chance against quality opposition alongside the established core? If they handle it, reward them with another shot straight away. If not, let them bide their time until the next opening.
Isn't that largely what's been happening?
Test 1: Holland, Lio-Willie, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi
Test 2: Vaa'i at 6. Narawa, Tavatavanawai. Another go for Holland, CLW, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi.
Test 3: Kirifi starting. Love, McAllister, Hotham. Another go for Holland, CLW, Tavatavanawai.
Test 4: Vaaà at 6. Holland, Kirifi and Proctor all starting. Norris on the bench.
Test 5: Parker starting. Vaai, Holland, Proctor, Lord.
Test 6. Parker, Proctor, Narawa, Holland, Kirifi, Preston. -
@Chris-B Not exactly. I'm talking about how to introduce promising players in general without having to wait to play Japan or an injury crisis. Holland and Proctor were straight in and haven't left, which is all good but they ran Holland into the ground. The third test was a B team so not those players amongst the core group. Lio-Willie and a number of those others had that game time, which has been an issue this year. Others had limited minutes off the bench.
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@ShaquilleOatmeal Never going to be perfect and, to be fair, the ABs have always had dirty-dirties.
But, playing half a dozen guys with less than 10 test caps against the Boks in a massive test isn't really lacking in adventure.
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@Chris-B Again, I'm giving an idea of how to give promising players meaningful game time without 'easy' games or waiting till players are out injured, rather than talking about specific games where players got 8 minutes of the bench.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
Outside of Barrett (Who has no credible uncapped option beneath him) and the wingers, who genuinely did people actually think should be dropped to 'develop players'
You aren't changing the pack, the halfbacks, midfielders or the fullbacks...
That's the thing. It is really only the backs past 9 (well, maybe more of a look past Christie, and maybe some query what happened to Paps) that people really want to see. And the argument is for the 23. Or even the 46. As we don't have great depth.
Barrett? Do you mean BB?
I am not arguing for them but there is DMac, Love, Perofeta. Oh and Plummer (but I'm not pushing that wheelbarrow).But really I think it is the wingers and the questions over midfield that people are questioning. And where it is best to play Jordan, DMac, and maybe Jordie.
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@ShaquilleOatmeal that's how it works in school sports, but professional rugby is a complete different level
If we bring in newbies every game then they would be abused for not working on combinations which is ultimately where the best team is developed from
With Plummer, he must be the only player under 30 who has been capped and left in the same year in a very long time, maybe just being an all black was more important than being longterm or he already made his mind up -
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter They need to change their approach. The All Blacks still act as if inexperienced players should only get game time against minnows or when injuries force their hand. We always hear about the need to rest players and avoid overloading them. So why not rotate in one or two promising players each game, giving them a chance against quality opposition alongside the established core? If they handle it, reward them with another shot straight away. If not, let them bide their time until the next opening.
Isn't that largely what's been happening?
Test 1: Holland, Lio-Willie (injury), Proctor, Norris (bench, injury), Kirifi (bench, injury)
Test 2: Vaa'i at 6. Narawa (injury), Tavatavanawai (bench). Another go for Holland, CLW (injury), Proctor, Norris (bench, injury), Kirifi (bench, injury).
Test 3: Dead rubber, wholesale changes, waste of time.
Test 4: Vaaà at 6. Holland, Kirifi (injury) and Proctor all starting. Norris (injury) on the bench.
Test 5: Parker starting. Vaai, Holland, Proctor, Lord (injury).
Test 6. Parker, Proctor, Narawa, Holland (bench), Kirifi (bench), Preston (injury).So Holland, Proctor, and now Parker have been selected to start (as opposed to being an injury swap).
Forwards are not too bad though, as there have been injuries in the front row, lock and loosies. The backs though, the only injuries we've had have been wingers, so the changes there have been shithouse. A guy like Tupaea deserves a start with the A team. Clarke should have been in ahead of Ioane/Reece from day 1.
To be honest I'd forgive the rest if he ditched Beauden, started McKenzie and put Love on the bench to start getting some time. Because that's where we are fucked. -
I reckon they've done pretty well in terms of giving most guys game time. Maybe someone else can count up how many different players have started in the six games - and how many different players have played overall.
Rassie fielded one guy in his starting XV and three on the bench - with less than 10 caps. Bongi wasn't there, so I assume at least one was only there due to injury.
Mostly, from the team on Saturday, it seems like people are complaining about Beaudy and Rieko.
On BB vs DMac, I'm inclined to think it's a continuity selection. Maybe if we lose this Saturday, DMac will get a run of games. Otherwise, he should get Bled II if we win Bled I.
There's probably a degree of man-management with Rieko. He's being dumped from centre for Proctor - so give him a wing spot to assuage his grief. You don't want him getting the pip and fucking off, when he's still pretty clearly the second best centre in the country - to my mind, anyway. Might yet prove to still be the best!
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@Chuck72 said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal that's how it works in school sports, but professional rugby is a complete different level
If we bring in newbies every game then they would be abused for not working on combinations which is ultimately where the best team is developed from
With Plummer, he must be the only player under 30 who has been capped and left in the same year in a very long time, maybe just being an all black was more important than being longterm or he already made his mind upHow are those important backline combinations going this year? Does an inside back combination turn to custard every time they replace the halfback, which happens every game?
.Robertson has talked about wanting to build depth and he should be trying to put a quality squad together for the World Cup but instead he’s capped guys but barely played them, so there’s no real depth.
And, they keep relying on certain veterans who are already slipping and will be even worse by the World Cup. If you never give promising players proper game time, you’ll never know if they can step up. They haven’t done that well enough in the backs and only have in the forwards when forced to by injury.
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@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
.Robertson has talked about wanting to build depth and he should be trying to put a quality squad together for the World Cup but instead he’s capped guys but barely played them, so there’s no real depth.
Again, I don't agree. There's a few positions we're a bit light, but mostly we've got plenty of depth - especially given we lost 10 players from our 2023 squad and if I recall correctly about 700 caps (I'm prepared to be wrong on this because I can't be fucked checking). Whitelock, Retallick, Coles and Smith all had heaps.
Razor is aiming to have four quality options in every position. What does he have right now in terms of capped options?
Loosehead: Williams, De Groot, Norris, Bower
Tighthead: Lomax, Newell, Tosi, Tu'ungafasi - with varous options who can play both sides.
Hooker: Taylor, Takeiáho, Aumua, McAlister, (Bell)
Loosehead lock: SBarrett, Darry, Lord,
Tighthead lock: Vai'i, Holland, Tuipolotou (Pakman can correct me if I'm wrong on these - some crossover)
Blindside: Parker, Sititi, Vai'i, Blackadder (Frizell)
Openside: Savea, Kirifi, Papali'i, Jacobson
Number 8: Sititi, Savea, Jacobson, Lio-Willie (Sotutu)
Halfback: Roigard, Ratima, Hotham, Christie, (Preston)
First five: Mo'unga, BBarrett, DMac, Perofeta
Second five: JBarrett, Tupaea, Tavatavanawai, Havili
Centre: Proctor, Ioane, ALB, Ennor
Left wing: Clarke, Ioane, Faingaánuku
Right wing: Narawa, Reece, Jordan
Fullback: Jordan, Dmac, BBarrett, LoveI'm doubtless forgetting a few.
But, we just beat the RWC champions and are No. 1 in the world - it doesn't look too bad, two years out from the next tourny!
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
He played a season (or enough of one) to look good with a gameplan that sought to dominate in the forwards. Surely that's a capacity we want to see from our game managers - keep the ball in front of our forwards and give it to the backs when opportunity provides?
That season, the guy outside him also looked shit hot.
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@Chuck72 said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal that's how it works in school sports, but professional rugby is a complete different level
If we bring in newbies every game then they would be abused for not working on combinations which is ultimately where the best team is developed from
With Plummer, he must be the only player under 30 who has been capped and left in the same year in a very long time, maybe just being an all black was more important than being longterm or he already made his mind upHe had two guys in NZ ahead of him and a coach who spent every chance he could lobbying to have the rules changed for his pet number 10. There's a good chance he just saw that and realised in reality the door is pretty shut.
We could use the PI player excuse that gets trotted out frequently - that he has to go and earn money to provide for his family ....
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@Nepia It's just realism.
He was in the queue last year with Beaudy and DMac ahead of him. Mo'unga potentially returning, Perofeta, Jacombe and others pressing.
You get a big cash offer from France - sometimes it makes sense to take it.
I'm not of the view that he was going to be our saviour.
