All Blacks 2025
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@No-Quarter They need to change their approach. The All Blacks still act as if inexperienced players should only get game time against minnows or when injuries force their hand. We always hear about the need to rest players and avoid overloading them. So why not rotate in one or two promising players each game, giving them a chance against quality opposition alongside the established core? If they handle it, reward them with another shot straight away. If not, let them bide their time until the next opening.
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter They need to change their approach. The All Blacks still act as if inexperienced players should only get game time against minnows or when injuries force their hand. We always hear about the need to rest players and avoid overloading them. So why not rotate in one or two promising players each game, giving them a chance against quality opposition alongside the established core? If they handle it, reward them with another shot straight away. If not, let them bide their time until the next opening.
Isn't that largely what's been happening?
Test 1: Holland, Lio-Willie, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi
Test 2: Vaa'i at 6. Narawa, Tavatavanawai. Another go for Holland, CLW, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi.
Test 3: Kirifi starting. Love, McAllister, Hotham. Another go for Holland, CLW, Tavatavanawai.
Test 4: Vaaí at 6. Holland, Kirifi and Proctor all starting. Norris on the bench.
Test 5: Parker starting. Vaai, Holland, Proctor, Lord.
Test 6. Parker, Proctor, Narawa, Holland, Kirifi, Preston. -
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter They need to change their approach. The All Blacks still act as if inexperienced players should only get game time against minnows or when injuries force their hand. We always hear about the need to rest players and avoid overloading them. So why not rotate in one or two promising players each game, giving them a chance against quality opposition alongside the established core? If they handle it, reward them with another shot straight away. If not, let them bide their time until the next opening.
Isn't that largely what's been happening?
Test 1: Holland, Lio-Willie, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi
Test 2: Vaa'i at 6. Narawa, Tavatavanawai. Another go for Holland, CLW, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi.
Test 3: Kirifi starting. Love, McAllister, Hotham. Another go for Holland, CLW, Tavatavanawai.
Test 4: Vaaí at 6. Holland, Kirifi and Proctor all starting. Norris on the bench.
Test 5: Parker starting. Vaai, Holland, Proctor, Lord.
Test 6. Parker, Proctor, Narawa, Holland, Kirifi, Preston.@Chris-B Not exactly. I'm talking about how to introduce promising players in general without having to wait to play Japan or an injury crisis. Holland and Proctor were straight in and haven't left, which is all good but they ran Holland into the ground. The third test was a B team so not those players amongst the core group. Lio-Willie and a number of those others had that game time, which has been an issue this year. Others had limited minutes off the bench.
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Outside of Barrett (Who has no credible uncapped option beneath him) and the wingers, who genuinely did people actually think should be dropped to 'develop players'
You aren't changing the pack, the halfbacks, midfielders or the fullbacks...
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@Chris-B Not exactly. I'm talking about how to introduce promising players in general without having to wait to play Japan or an injury crisis. Holland and Proctor were straight in and haven't left, which is all good but they ran Holland into the ground. The third test was a B team so not those players amongst the core group. Lio-Willie and a number of those others had that game time, which has been an issue this year. Others had limited minutes off the bench.
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@ShaquilleOatmeal Never going to be perfect and, to be fair, the ABs have always had dirty-dirties.
But, playing half a dozen guys with less than 10 test caps against the Boks in a massive test isn't really lacking in adventure.
@Chris-B Again, I'm giving an idea of how to give promising players meaningful game time without 'easy' games or waiting till players are out injured, rather than talking about specific games where players got 8 minutes of the bench.
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Outside of Barrett (Who has no credible uncapped option beneath him) and the wingers, who genuinely did people actually think should be dropped to 'develop players'
You aren't changing the pack, the halfbacks, midfielders or the fullbacks...
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
Outside of Barrett (Who has no credible uncapped option beneath him) and the wingers, who genuinely did people actually think should be dropped to 'develop players'
You aren't changing the pack, the halfbacks, midfielders or the fullbacks...
That's the thing. It is really only the backs past 9 (well, maybe more of a look past Christie, and maybe some query what happened to Paps) that people really want to see. And the argument is for the 23. Or even the 46. As we don't have great depth.
Barrett? Do you mean BB?
I am not arguing for them but there is DMac, Love, Perofeta. Oh and Plummer (but I'm not pushing that wheelbarrow).But really I think it is the wingers and the questions over midfield that people are questioning. And where it is best to play Jordan, DMac, and maybe Jordie.
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@No-Quarter They need to change their approach. The All Blacks still act as if inexperienced players should only get game time against minnows or when injuries force their hand. We always hear about the need to rest players and avoid overloading them. So why not rotate in one or two promising players each game, giving them a chance against quality opposition alongside the established core? If they handle it, reward them with another shot straight away. If not, let them bide their time until the next opening.
@ShaquilleOatmeal that's how it works in school sports, but professional rugby is a complete different level
If we bring in newbies every game then they would be abused for not working on combinations which is ultimately where the best team is developed from
With Plummer, he must be the only player under 30 who has been capped and left in the same year in a very long time, maybe just being an all black was more important than being longterm or he already made his mind up -
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter They need to change their approach. The All Blacks still act as if inexperienced players should only get game time against minnows or when injuries force their hand. We always hear about the need to rest players and avoid overloading them. So why not rotate in one or two promising players each game, giving them a chance against quality opposition alongside the established core? If they handle it, reward them with another shot straight away. If not, let them bide their time until the next opening.
Isn't that largely what's been happening?
Test 1: Holland, Lio-Willie, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi
Test 2: Vaa'i at 6. Narawa, Tavatavanawai. Another go for Holland, CLW, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi.
Test 3: Kirifi starting. Love, McAllister, Hotham. Another go for Holland, CLW, Tavatavanawai.
Test 4: Vaaí at 6. Holland, Kirifi and Proctor all starting. Norris on the bench.
Test 5: Parker starting. Vaai, Holland, Proctor, Lord.
Test 6. Parker, Proctor, Narawa, Holland, Kirifi, Preston.@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter They need to change their approach. The All Blacks still act as if inexperienced players should only get game time against minnows or when injuries force their hand. We always hear about the need to rest players and avoid overloading them. So why not rotate in one or two promising players each game, giving them a chance against quality opposition alongside the established core? If they handle it, reward them with another shot straight away. If not, let them bide their time until the next opening.
Isn't that largely what's been happening?
Test 1: Holland, Lio-Willie (injury), Proctor, Norris (bench, injury), Kirifi (bench, injury)
Test 2: Vaa'i at 6. Narawa (injury), Tavatavanawai (bench). Another go for Holland, CLW (injury), Proctor, Norris (bench, injury), Kirifi (bench, injury).
Test 3: Dead rubber, wholesale changes, waste of time.
Test 4: Vaaí at 6. Holland, Kirifi (injury) and Proctor all starting. Norris (injury) on the bench.
Test 5: Parker starting. Vaai, Holland, Proctor, Lord (injury).
Test 6. Parker, Proctor, Narawa, Holland (bench), Kirifi (bench), Preston (injury).So Holland, Proctor, and now Parker have been selected to start (as opposed to being an injury swap).
Forwards are not too bad though, as there have been injuries in the front row, lock and loosies. The backs though, the only injuries we've had have been wingers, so the changes there have been shithouse. A guy like Tupaea deserves a start with the A team. Clarke should have been in ahead of Ioane/Reece from day 1.
To be honest I'd forgive the rest if he ditched Beauden, started McKenzie and put Love on the bench to start getting some time. Because that's where we are fucked. -
I reckon they've done pretty well in terms of giving most guys game time. Maybe someone else can count up how many different players have started in the six games - and how many different players have played overall.
Rassie fielded one guy in his starting XV and three on the bench - with less than 10 caps. Bongi wasn't there, so I assume at least one was only there due to injury.
Mostly, from the team on Saturday, it seems like people are complaining about Beaudy and Rieko.
On BB vs DMac, I'm inclined to think it's a continuity selection. Maybe if we lose this Saturday, DMac will get a run of games. Otherwise, he should get Bled II if we win Bled I.
There's probably a degree of man-management with Rieko. He's being dumped from centre for Proctor - so give him a wing spot to assuage his grief. You don't want him getting the pip and fucking off, when he's still pretty clearly the second best centre in the country - to my mind, anyway. Might yet prove to still be the best!
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@ShaquilleOatmeal that's how it works in school sports, but professional rugby is a complete different level
If we bring in newbies every game then they would be abused for not working on combinations which is ultimately where the best team is developed from
With Plummer, he must be the only player under 30 who has been capped and left in the same year in a very long time, maybe just being an all black was more important than being longterm or he already made his mind up@Chuck72 said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal that's how it works in school sports, but professional rugby is a complete different level
If we bring in newbies every game then they would be abused for not working on combinations which is ultimately where the best team is developed from
With Plummer, he must be the only player under 30 who has been capped and left in the same year in a very long time, maybe just being an all black was more important than being longterm or he already made his mind upHow are those important backline combinations going this year? Does an inside back combination turn to custard every time they replace the halfback, which happens every game?
.Robertson has talked about wanting to build depth and he should be trying to put a quality squad together for the World Cup but instead he’s capped guys but barely played them, so there’s no real depth.
And, they keep relying on certain veterans who are already slipping and will be even worse by the World Cup. If you never give promising players proper game time, you’ll never know if they can step up. They haven’t done that well enough in the backs and only have in the forwards when forced to by injury.
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@Chuck72 said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal that's how it works in school sports, but professional rugby is a complete different level
If we bring in newbies every game then they would be abused for not working on combinations which is ultimately where the best team is developed from
With Plummer, he must be the only player under 30 who has been capped and left in the same year in a very long time, maybe just being an all black was more important than being longterm or he already made his mind upHow are those important backline combinations going this year? Does an inside back combination turn to custard every time they replace the halfback, which happens every game?
.Robertson has talked about wanting to build depth and he should be trying to put a quality squad together for the World Cup but instead he’s capped guys but barely played them, so there’s no real depth.
And, they keep relying on certain veterans who are already slipping and will be even worse by the World Cup. If you never give promising players proper game time, you’ll never know if they can step up. They haven’t done that well enough in the backs and only have in the forwards when forced to by injury.
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
.Robertson has talked about wanting to build depth and he should be trying to put a quality squad together for the World Cup but instead he’s capped guys but barely played them, so there’s no real depth.
Again, I don't agree. There's a few positions we're a bit light, but mostly we've got plenty of depth - especially given we lost 10 players from our 2023 squad and if I recall correctly about 700 caps (I'm prepared to be wrong on this because I can't be fucked checking). Whitelock, Retallick, Coles and Smith all had heaps.
Razor is aiming to have four quality options in every position. What does he have right now in terms of capped options?
Loosehead: Williams, De Groot, Norris, Bower
Tighthead: Lomax, Newell, Tosi, Tu'ungafasi - with varous options who can play both sides.
Hooker: Taylor, Takeiáho, Aumua, McAlister, (Bell)
Loosehead lock: SBarrett, Darry, Lord,
Tighthead lock: Vai'i, Holland, Tuipolotou (Pakman can correct me if I'm wrong on these - some crossover)
Blindside: Parker, Sititi, Vai'i, Blackadder (Frizell)
Openside: Savea, Kirifi, Papali'i, Jacobson
Number 8: Sititi, Savea, Jacobson, Lio-Willie (Sotutu)
Halfback: Roigard, Ratima, Hotham, Christie, (Preston)
First five: Mo'unga, BBarrett, DMac, Perofeta
Second five: JBarrett, Tupaea, Tavatavanawai, Havili
Centre: Proctor, Ioane, ALB, Ennor
Left wing: Clarke, Ioane, Faingaánuku
Right wing: Narawa, Reece, Jordan
Fullback: Jordan, Dmac, BBarrett, LoveI'm doubtless forgetting a few.
But, we just beat the RWC champions and are No. 1 in the world - it doesn't look too bad, two years out from the next tourny!
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph It's a bit poor to just turn up for the cash.
I would have picked Plummer last year instead of Perofeta, but he still would have been third choice. In my mind he's David Hill.
Reihana is promising, but doesn't look test ready.
I don't buy that these guys were/are the missing links.
DMac or Beaudy is the question - until the second coming!
If Plummer had been staying I would have picked him over Beauden at 10 for the Blues, and he was more successful.
I don't think he is/was the answer at AB level, he had one good year then fucked off - and it's not like his individual brilliance won that title.Plummer is actually a good option in a game like yesterday. He runs more direct, is a more physical tackler and is better at securing ball it the breakdown. These are requirements in the modern game for a 10.
His option taking is also better than both BB and Mckenzie.
What I found infuriating was we never saw whether his skillset could translate to Test rugby. We've become enamoured with 10s who "break games apart" rather than execute with consistency and are well-rounded enough that they keep defences honest whilst providing good, timely service to their outsides.
He played a season (or enough of one) to look good with a gameplan that sought to dominate in the forwards. Surely that's a capacity we want to see from our game managers - keep the ball in front of our forwards and give it to the backs when opportunity provides?
Instead I feel Razor's messaging in the media is for a 10 that waits until he can be in a position to exploit an opportunity himself. At least that's my impression.
Personally I want a 10 that decides quickly if there's opportunity for his outsides to do something and give them the opportunity or keep the ball in front of his forwards. Your 10 doesn't have to be the superstar.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
He played a season (or enough of one) to look good with a gameplan that sought to dominate in the forwards. Surely that's a capacity we want to see from our game managers - keep the ball in front of our forwards and give it to the backs when opportunity provides?
That season, the guy outside him also looked shit hot.
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@ShaquilleOatmeal that's how it works in school sports, but professional rugby is a complete different level
If we bring in newbies every game then they would be abused for not working on combinations which is ultimately where the best team is developed from
With Plummer, he must be the only player under 30 who has been capped and left in the same year in a very long time, maybe just being an all black was more important than being longterm or he already made his mind up@Chuck72 said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal that's how it works in school sports, but professional rugby is a complete different level
If we bring in newbies every game then they would be abused for not working on combinations which is ultimately where the best team is developed from
With Plummer, he must be the only player under 30 who has been capped and left in the same year in a very long time, maybe just being an all black was more important than being longterm or he already made his mind upHe had two guys in NZ ahead of him and a coach who spent every chance he could lobbying to have the rules changed for his pet number 10. There's a good chance he just saw that and realised in reality the door is pretty shut.
We could use the PI player excuse that gets trotted out frequently - that he has to go and earn money to provide for his family ....
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@Chuck72 said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal that's how it works in school sports, but professional rugby is a complete different level
If we bring in newbies every game then they would be abused for not working on combinations which is ultimately where the best team is developed from
With Plummer, he must be the only player under 30 who has been capped and left in the same year in a very long time, maybe just being an all black was more important than being longterm or he already made his mind upHe had two guys in NZ ahead of him and a coach who spent every chance he could lobbying to have the rules changed for his pet number 10. There's a good chance he just saw that and realised in reality the door is pretty shut.
We could use the PI player excuse that gets trotted out frequently - that he has to go and earn money to provide for his family ....
@Nepia It's just realism.
He was in the queue last year with Beaudy and DMac ahead of him. Mo'unga potentially returning, Perofeta, Jacombe and others pressing.
You get a big cash offer from France - sometimes it makes sense to take it.
I'm not of the view that he was going to be our saviour.
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@Nepia It's just realism.
He was in the queue last year with Beaudy and DMac ahead of him. Mo'unga potentially returning, Perofeta, Jacombe and others pressing.
You get a big cash offer from France - sometimes it makes sense to take it.
I'm not of the view that he was going to be our saviour.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia It's just realism.
He was in the queue last year with Beaudy and DMac ahead of him. Mo'unga potentially returning, Perofeta, Jacombe and others pressing.
You get a big cash offer from France - sometimes it makes sense to take it.
I'm not of the view that he was going to be our saviour.
I'm not either, but then I don't think Razor's pet is going to be either.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia It's just realism.
He was in the queue last year with Beaudy and DMac ahead of him. Mo'unga potentially returning, Perofeta, Jacombe and others pressing.
You get a big cash offer from France - sometimes it makes sense to take it.
I'm not of the view that he was going to be our saviour.
I'm not either, but then I don't think Razor's pet is going to be either.
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@Nepia If Sammy Cane didn't get his card, there's a fair likelihood we would have won with Mo.
Shit happens, but he was good enough to win.
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@Nepia If Sammy Cane didn't get his card, there's a fair likelihood we would have won with Mo.
Shit happens, but he was good enough to win.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia If Sammy Cane didn't get his card, there's a fair likelihood we would have won with Mo.
Shit happens, but he was good enough to win.
And the first time? Who are you using to protect (yours) and Razor's pet for that one?
Anyway, Cane had already made 8 times the tackles Frizell made so he thought he'd get into the showers early.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
They're planning on going to RWC2027 with Mo'unga, Beaudy and DMac as their three first fives. Do we need another option?
So that's it is it?
Shop is all closed up?A then 36 year old is already locked in, in apparently the best rugby team in the world.
One would hope we could show a little more ambition in unearthing young talent.
@Frank said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
They're planning on going to RWC2027 with Mo'unga, Beaudy and DMac as their three first fives. Do we need another option?
So that's it is it?
Shop is all closed up?A then 36 year old is already locked in, in apparently the best rugby team in the world.
One would hope we could show a little more ambition in unearthing young talent.
And if RM comes back diminished Razor and we are fucked
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@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
.Robertson has talked about wanting to build depth and he should be trying to put a quality squad together for the World Cup but instead he’s capped guys but barely played them, so there’s no real depth.
Again, I don't agree. There's a few positions we're a bit light, but mostly we've got plenty of depth - especially given we lost 10 players from our 2023 squad and if I recall correctly about 700 caps (I'm prepared to be wrong on this because I can't be fucked checking). Whitelock, Retallick, Coles and Smith all had heaps.
Razor is aiming to have four quality options in every position. What does he have right now in terms of capped options?
Loosehead: Williams, De Groot, Norris, Bower
Tighthead: Lomax, Newell, Tosi, Tu'ungafasi - with varous options who can play both sides.
Hooker: Taylor, Takeiáho, Aumua, McAlister, (Bell)
Loosehead lock: SBarrett, Darry, Lord,
Tighthead lock: Vai'i, Holland, Tuipolotou (Pakman can correct me if I'm wrong on these - some crossover)
Blindside: Parker, Sititi, Vai'i, Blackadder (Frizell)
Openside: Savea, Kirifi, Papali'i, Jacobson
Number 8: Sititi, Savea, Jacobson, Lio-Willie (Sotutu)
Halfback: Roigard, Ratima, Hotham, Christie, (Preston)
First five: Mo'unga, BBarrett, DMac, Perofeta
Second five: JBarrett, Tupaea, Tavatavanawai, Havili
Centre: Proctor, Ioane, ALB, Ennor
Left wing: Clarke, Ioane, Faingaánuku
Right wing: Narawa, Reece, Jordan
Fullback: Jordan, Dmac, BBarrett, LoveI'm doubtless forgetting a few.
But, we just beat the RWC champions and are No. 1 in the world - it doesn't look too bad, two years out from the next tourny!
@Chris-B Sure. If you’re only criteria for a player with the requirements to play in a World Cup knock out game is that they’ve played at least one test match for any number of minutes at some stage in their career. Doesn’t matter if they’re actually any good or they’ve had significant minutes against quality opposition leading up to the tournament.
