All Blacks 2025
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@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter They need to change their approach. The All Blacks still act as if inexperienced players should only get game time against minnows or when injuries force their hand. We always hear about the need to rest players and avoid overloading them. So why not rotate in one or two promising players each game, giving them a chance against quality opposition alongside the established core? If they handle it, reward them with another shot straight away. If not, let them bide their time until the next opening.
Isn't that largely what's been happening?
Test 1: Holland, Lio-Willie, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi
Test 2: Vaa'i at 6. Narawa, Tavatavanawai. Another go for Holland, CLW, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi.
Test 3: Kirifi starting. Love, McAllister, Hotham. Another go for Holland, CLW, Tavatavanawai.
Test 4: Vaaí at 6. Holland, Kirifi and Proctor all starting. Norris on the bench.
Test 5: Parker starting. Vaai, Holland, Proctor, Lord.
Test 6. Parker, Proctor, Narawa, Holland, Kirifi, Preston.@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter They need to change their approach. The All Blacks still act as if inexperienced players should only get game time against minnows or when injuries force their hand. We always hear about the need to rest players and avoid overloading them. So why not rotate in one or two promising players each game, giving them a chance against quality opposition alongside the established core? If they handle it, reward them with another shot straight away. If not, let them bide their time until the next opening.
Isn't that largely what's been happening?
Test 1: Holland, Lio-Willie (injury), Proctor, Norris (bench, injury), Kirifi (bench, injury)
Test 2: Vaa'i at 6. Narawa (injury), Tavatavanawai (bench). Another go for Holland, CLW (injury), Proctor, Norris (bench, injury), Kirifi (bench, injury).
Test 3: Dead rubber, wholesale changes, waste of time.
Test 4: Vaaí at 6. Holland, Kirifi (injury) and Proctor all starting. Norris (injury) on the bench.
Test 5: Parker starting. Vaai, Holland, Proctor, Lord (injury).
Test 6. Parker, Proctor, Narawa, Holland (bench), Kirifi (bench), Preston (injury).So Holland, Proctor, and now Parker have been selected to start (as opposed to being an injury swap).
Forwards are not too bad though, as there have been injuries in the front row, lock and loosies. The backs though, the only injuries we've had have been wingers, so the changes there have been shithouse. A guy like Tupaea deserves a start with the A team. Clarke should have been in ahead of Ioane/Reece from day 1.
To be honest I'd forgive the rest if he ditched Beauden, started McKenzie and put Love on the bench to start getting some time. Because that's where we are fucked. -
I reckon they've done pretty well in terms of giving most guys game time. Maybe someone else can count up how many different players have started in the six games - and how many different players have played overall.
Rassie fielded one guy in his starting XV and three on the bench - with less than 10 caps. Bongi wasn't there, so I assume at least one was only there due to injury.
Mostly, from the team on Saturday, it seems like people are complaining about Beaudy and Rieko.
On BB vs DMac, I'm inclined to think it's a continuity selection. Maybe if we lose this Saturday, DMac will get a run of games. Otherwise, he should get Bled II if we win Bled I.
There's probably a degree of man-management with Rieko. He's being dumped from centre for Proctor - so give him a wing spot to assuage his grief. You don't want him getting the pip and fucking off, when he's still pretty clearly the second best centre in the country - to my mind, anyway. Might yet prove to still be the best!
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@ShaquilleOatmeal that's how it works in school sports, but professional rugby is a complete different level
If we bring in newbies every game then they would be abused for not working on combinations which is ultimately where the best team is developed from
With Plummer, he must be the only player under 30 who has been capped and left in the same year in a very long time, maybe just being an all black was more important than being longterm or he already made his mind up@Chuck72 said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal that's how it works in school sports, but professional rugby is a complete different level
If we bring in newbies every game then they would be abused for not working on combinations which is ultimately where the best team is developed from
With Plummer, he must be the only player under 30 who has been capped and left in the same year in a very long time, maybe just being an all black was more important than being longterm or he already made his mind upHow are those important backline combinations going this year? Does an inside back combination turn to custard every time they replace the halfback, which happens every game?
.Robertson has talked about wanting to build depth and he should be trying to put a quality squad together for the World Cup but instead he’s capped guys but barely played them, so there’s no real depth.
And, they keep relying on certain veterans who are already slipping and will be even worse by the World Cup. If you never give promising players proper game time, you’ll never know if they can step up. They haven’t done that well enough in the backs and only have in the forwards when forced to by injury.
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@Chuck72 said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal that's how it works in school sports, but professional rugby is a complete different level
If we bring in newbies every game then they would be abused for not working on combinations which is ultimately where the best team is developed from
With Plummer, he must be the only player under 30 who has been capped and left in the same year in a very long time, maybe just being an all black was more important than being longterm or he already made his mind upHow are those important backline combinations going this year? Does an inside back combination turn to custard every time they replace the halfback, which happens every game?
.Robertson has talked about wanting to build depth and he should be trying to put a quality squad together for the World Cup but instead he’s capped guys but barely played them, so there’s no real depth.
And, they keep relying on certain veterans who are already slipping and will be even worse by the World Cup. If you never give promising players proper game time, you’ll never know if they can step up. They haven’t done that well enough in the backs and only have in the forwards when forced to by injury.
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
.Robertson has talked about wanting to build depth and he should be trying to put a quality squad together for the World Cup but instead he’s capped guys but barely played them, so there’s no real depth.
Again, I don't agree. There's a few positions we're a bit light, but mostly we've got plenty of depth - especially given we lost 10 players from our 2023 squad and if I recall correctly about 700 caps (I'm prepared to be wrong on this because I can't be fucked checking). Whitelock, Retallick, Coles and Smith all had heaps.
Razor is aiming to have four quality options in every position. What does he have right now in terms of capped options?
Loosehead: Williams, De Groot, Norris, Bower
Tighthead: Lomax, Newell, Tosi, Tu'ungafasi - with varous options who can play both sides.
Hooker: Taylor, Takeiáho, Aumua, McAlister, (Bell)
Loosehead lock: SBarrett, Darry, Lord,
Tighthead lock: Vai'i, Holland, Tuipolotou (Pakman can correct me if I'm wrong on these - some crossover)
Blindside: Parker, Sititi, Vai'i, Blackadder (Frizell)
Openside: Savea, Kirifi, Papali'i, Jacobson
Number 8: Sititi, Savea, Jacobson, Lio-Willie (Sotutu)
Halfback: Roigard, Ratima, Hotham, Christie, (Preston)
First five: Mo'unga, BBarrett, DMac, Perofeta
Second five: JBarrett, Tupaea, Tavatavanawai, Havili
Centre: Proctor, Ioane, ALB, Ennor
Left wing: Clarke, Ioane, Faingaánuku
Right wing: Narawa, Reece, Jordan
Fullback: Jordan, Dmac, BBarrett, LoveI'm doubtless forgetting a few.
But, we just beat the RWC champions and are No. 1 in the world - it doesn't look too bad, two years out from the next tourny!
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph It's a bit poor to just turn up for the cash.
I would have picked Plummer last year instead of Perofeta, but he still would have been third choice. In my mind he's David Hill.
Reihana is promising, but doesn't look test ready.
I don't buy that these guys were/are the missing links.
DMac or Beaudy is the question - until the second coming!
If Plummer had been staying I would have picked him over Beauden at 10 for the Blues, and he was more successful.
I don't think he is/was the answer at AB level, he had one good year then fucked off - and it's not like his individual brilliance won that title.Plummer is actually a good option in a game like yesterday. He runs more direct, is a more physical tackler and is better at securing ball it the breakdown. These are requirements in the modern game for a 10.
His option taking is also better than both BB and Mckenzie.
What I found infuriating was we never saw whether his skillset could translate to Test rugby. We've become enamoured with 10s who "break games apart" rather than execute with consistency and are well-rounded enough that they keep defences honest whilst providing good, timely service to their outsides.
He played a season (or enough of one) to look good with a gameplan that sought to dominate in the forwards. Surely that's a capacity we want to see from our game managers - keep the ball in front of our forwards and give it to the backs when opportunity provides?
Instead I feel Razor's messaging in the media is for a 10 that waits until he can be in a position to exploit an opportunity himself. At least that's my impression.
Personally I want a 10 that decides quickly if there's opportunity for his outsides to do something and give them the opportunity or keep the ball in front of his forwards. Your 10 doesn't have to be the superstar.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
He played a season (or enough of one) to look good with a gameplan that sought to dominate in the forwards. Surely that's a capacity we want to see from our game managers - keep the ball in front of our forwards and give it to the backs when opportunity provides?
That season, the guy outside him also looked shit hot.
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@ShaquilleOatmeal that's how it works in school sports, but professional rugby is a complete different level
If we bring in newbies every game then they would be abused for not working on combinations which is ultimately where the best team is developed from
With Plummer, he must be the only player under 30 who has been capped and left in the same year in a very long time, maybe just being an all black was more important than being longterm or he already made his mind up@Chuck72 said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal that's how it works in school sports, but professional rugby is a complete different level
If we bring in newbies every game then they would be abused for not working on combinations which is ultimately where the best team is developed from
With Plummer, he must be the only player under 30 who has been capped and left in the same year in a very long time, maybe just being an all black was more important than being longterm or he already made his mind upHe had two guys in NZ ahead of him and a coach who spent every chance he could lobbying to have the rules changed for his pet number 10. There's a good chance he just saw that and realised in reality the door is pretty shut.
We could use the PI player excuse that gets trotted out frequently - that he has to go and earn money to provide for his family ....
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@Chuck72 said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal that's how it works in school sports, but professional rugby is a complete different level
If we bring in newbies every game then they would be abused for not working on combinations which is ultimately where the best team is developed from
With Plummer, he must be the only player under 30 who has been capped and left in the same year in a very long time, maybe just being an all black was more important than being longterm or he already made his mind upHe had two guys in NZ ahead of him and a coach who spent every chance he could lobbying to have the rules changed for his pet number 10. There's a good chance he just saw that and realised in reality the door is pretty shut.
We could use the PI player excuse that gets trotted out frequently - that he has to go and earn money to provide for his family ....
@Nepia It's just realism.
He was in the queue last year with Beaudy and DMac ahead of him. Mo'unga potentially returning, Perofeta, Jacombe and others pressing.
You get a big cash offer from France - sometimes it makes sense to take it.
I'm not of the view that he was going to be our saviour.
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@Nepia It's just realism.
He was in the queue last year with Beaudy and DMac ahead of him. Mo'unga potentially returning, Perofeta, Jacombe and others pressing.
You get a big cash offer from France - sometimes it makes sense to take it.
I'm not of the view that he was going to be our saviour.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia It's just realism.
He was in the queue last year with Beaudy and DMac ahead of him. Mo'unga potentially returning, Perofeta, Jacombe and others pressing.
You get a big cash offer from France - sometimes it makes sense to take it.
I'm not of the view that he was going to be our saviour.
I'm not either, but then I don't think Razor's pet is going to be either.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia It's just realism.
He was in the queue last year with Beaudy and DMac ahead of him. Mo'unga potentially returning, Perofeta, Jacombe and others pressing.
You get a big cash offer from France - sometimes it makes sense to take it.
I'm not of the view that he was going to be our saviour.
I'm not either, but then I don't think Razor's pet is going to be either.
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@Nepia If Sammy Cane didn't get his card, there's a fair likelihood we would have won with Mo.
Shit happens, but he was good enough to win.
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@Nepia If Sammy Cane didn't get his card, there's a fair likelihood we would have won with Mo.
Shit happens, but he was good enough to win.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia If Sammy Cane didn't get his card, there's a fair likelihood we would have won with Mo.
Shit happens, but he was good enough to win.
And the first time? Who are you using to protect (yours) and Razor's pet for that one?
Anyway, Cane had already made 8 times the tackles Frizell made so he thought he'd get into the showers early.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
They're planning on going to RWC2027 with Mo'unga, Beaudy and DMac as their three first fives. Do we need another option?
So that's it is it?
Shop is all closed up?A then 36 year old is already locked in, in apparently the best rugby team in the world.
One would hope we could show a little more ambition in unearthing young talent.
@Frank said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
They're planning on going to RWC2027 with Mo'unga, Beaudy and DMac as their three first fives. Do we need another option?
So that's it is it?
Shop is all closed up?A then 36 year old is already locked in, in apparently the best rugby team in the world.
One would hope we could show a little more ambition in unearthing young talent.
And if RM comes back diminished Razor and we are fucked
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@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
.Robertson has talked about wanting to build depth and he should be trying to put a quality squad together for the World Cup but instead he’s capped guys but barely played them, so there’s no real depth.
Again, I don't agree. There's a few positions we're a bit light, but mostly we've got plenty of depth - especially given we lost 10 players from our 2023 squad and if I recall correctly about 700 caps (I'm prepared to be wrong on this because I can't be fucked checking). Whitelock, Retallick, Coles and Smith all had heaps.
Razor is aiming to have four quality options in every position. What does he have right now in terms of capped options?
Loosehead: Williams, De Groot, Norris, Bower
Tighthead: Lomax, Newell, Tosi, Tu'ungafasi - with varous options who can play both sides.
Hooker: Taylor, Takeiáho, Aumua, McAlister, (Bell)
Loosehead lock: SBarrett, Darry, Lord,
Tighthead lock: Vai'i, Holland, Tuipolotou (Pakman can correct me if I'm wrong on these - some crossover)
Blindside: Parker, Sititi, Vai'i, Blackadder (Frizell)
Openside: Savea, Kirifi, Papali'i, Jacobson
Number 8: Sititi, Savea, Jacobson, Lio-Willie (Sotutu)
Halfback: Roigard, Ratima, Hotham, Christie, (Preston)
First five: Mo'unga, BBarrett, DMac, Perofeta
Second five: JBarrett, Tupaea, Tavatavanawai, Havili
Centre: Proctor, Ioane, ALB, Ennor
Left wing: Clarke, Ioane, Faingaánuku
Right wing: Narawa, Reece, Jordan
Fullback: Jordan, Dmac, BBarrett, LoveI'm doubtless forgetting a few.
But, we just beat the RWC champions and are No. 1 in the world - it doesn't look too bad, two years out from the next tourny!
@Chris-B Sure. If you’re only criteria for a player with the requirements to play in a World Cup knock out game is that they’ve played at least one test match for any number of minutes at some stage in their career. Doesn’t matter if they’re actually any good or they’ve had significant minutes against quality opposition leading up to the tournament.
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@Chuck72 said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal that's how it works in school sports, but professional rugby is a complete different level
If we bring in newbies every game then they would be abused for not working on combinations which is ultimately where the best team is developed from
With Plummer, he must be the only player under 30 who has been capped and left in the same year in a very long time, maybe just being an all black was more important than being longterm or he already made his mind upHe had two guys in NZ ahead of him and a coach who spent every chance he could lobbying to have the rules changed for his pet number 10. There's a good chance he just saw that and realised in reality the door is pretty shut.
We could use the PI player excuse that gets trotted out frequently - that he has to go and earn money to provide for his family ....
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
We could use the PI player excuse that gets trotted out frequently - that he has to go and earn money to provide for his family ....
And there is nothing wrong with that if had that chouce but still after 1 season of new world cup cycle he leaves.
Maybe he is smart enough to realize that his overseas stocks where as good as they were going to get
But I struggle to get on the bandwagon that he is international quality because he leaves without giving it a few seasons
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When patty comes back does he go back to the bench , holland goes back to lock , tupou back to 6 ,
One of sititi or Parker to the bench with patty , and kirifi out of the 23 .
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@Jet said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@His-Bobness said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Frank Yes, there’s still plenty to admire about BB. And he is a quintessential professional. No argument. My point, however, is the team is not developing. They’ve risked new names in the forwards in the past year and it’s paid off - Sititi, Holland, Parker - but they’re still shuffling from the same old deck in the backs. It seems inordinately conservative. To be fair, the half-back pandemic has tied their hands.
I think they actually kneecap their own bolters too with this method of conservatism.
You get selected for the squad ala Love or Leroy Carter and then instead of riding the crest of the wave of the media and familial circle jerk that follows, you're left to stew in camp for 4 or 5 or 6 weeks without getting a gig.
You must be a ball of nerves by the time you get your chance, and everything is riding on it (in your mind).
Whereas post initial selection, give them minutes off the bench in the first test or so and they can relax into camp after getting their cap and they properly feel like they belong.
Its also a reason I lament the disappearance of the early season "touch up" against a Fiji or a Tonga.
Give lads first caps, get monkeys off backs, pre/post match press conferences/interviews etc...then get on with the job at hand for the rest of the season with a fully bought in and not disillusioned squad.
Now we are having conversations like "you cant start Love against the Boks"......."you cant start Preston"......."you cant throw him in there" etc etc. Its nonsense.
I can't stand hearing this from people. This player can't play this game because he didn't play in other games he wasn't selected for either. It'll take forever easing players in waiting for them to tick up enough minutes against Japan and Italy before they can be promoted to five minutes off the bench against Wales etc.
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@His-Bobness said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Frank Yes, there’s still plenty to admire about BB. And he is a quintessential professional. No argument. My point, however, is the team is not developing. They’ve risked new names in the forwards in the past year and it’s paid off - Sititi, Holland, Parker - but they’re still shuffling from the same old deck in the backs. It seems inordinately conservative. To be fair, the half-back pandemic has tied their hands.
I think they actually kneecap their own bolters too with this method of conservatism.
You get selected for the squad ala Love or Leroy Carter and then instead of riding the crest of the wave of the media and familial circle jerk that follows, you're left to stew in camp for 4 or 5 or 6 weeks without getting a gig.
You must be a ball of nerves by the time you get your chance, and everything is riding on it (in your mind).
Whereas post initial selection, give them minutes off the bench in the first test or so and they can relax into camp after getting their cap and they properly feel like they belong.
Its also a reason I lament the disappearance of the early season "touch up" against a Fiji or a Tonga.
Give lads first caps, get monkeys off backs, pre/post match press conferences/interviews etc...then get on with the job at hand for the rest of the season with a fully bought in and not disillusioned squad.
Now we are having conversations like "you cant start Love against the Boks"......."you cant start Preston"......."you cant throw him in there" etc etc. Its nonsense.
I can't stand hearing this from people. This player can't play this game because he didn't play in other games he wasn't selected for either. It'll take forever easing players in waiting for them to tick up enough minutes against Japan and Italy before they can be promoted to five minutes off the bench against Wales etc.
Agree.
Preston didn't fuck up on debut in biggest game for two years.
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When patty comes back does he go back to the bench , holland goes back to lock , tupou back to 6 ,
One of sititi or Parker to the bench with patty , and kirifi out of the 23 .
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks 2025:
When patty comes back does he go back to the bench , holland goes back to lock , tupou back to 6 ,
One of sititi or Parker to the bench with patty , and kirifi out of the 23 .
I'd say they'll want to continue developing Parker and Vaai is our best lock so both start. It'll be a choice of Holland or Patty T on the bench with one missing out altogether.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
Shit happens, but he was good enough to win.
if he or Jordie could kick, we'd have won. So nealry good enough.
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
Shit happens, but he was good enough to win.
if he or Jordie could kick, we'd have won. So nealry good enough.
Years ago they got Steve Davis and various other snooker players to play a hundred (or actually I think a thousand) shots from the same place - a relatively easy pot. Once they'd removed statistical abberrations it was clear that Davis was the most accurate potter.
You could do the same thing with Jordie and Mo. they'll make those kicks a reasonable proportion of the time.
Fozzie's great mistake was picking ALB on the bench instead of Dave Havili.
Sub Dave on for Jordie and he makes that kick every day of the week and twice on Sundays..
Boom!!!
Because Ta$man players score lots of points in RWC2023 play-offs where most others fail!
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Fozzie and Razor have both had the same challenge previous coaches didn't - they got/get no warm up games anymore. We used to blood players against the Island nations etc, but since Fozzie took over we've just been going straight into Tier 1 nations to start the season. Neither have had any real chance to blood players without throwing them in the deep end and hoping they don't sink. Given the ABs are expected to win every match, I have quite a bit of sympathy for both coaches being put in that position. Why don't we do warm up games anymore?
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
Why don't we do warm up games anymore?
Test windows I'm picking. Those island teams are now mostly full of pros playing in Europe. So we'd be stuck playing something less like we did against Tonga last time out. (Fuck that was 4 years ago ... )
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@Chris-B Sure. If you’re only criteria for a player with the requirements to play in a World Cup knock out game is that they’ve played at least one test match for any number of minutes at some stage in their career. Doesn’t matter if they’re actually any good or they’ve had significant minutes against quality opposition leading up to the tournament.
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B Sure. If you’re only criteria for a player with the requirements to play in a World Cup knock out game is that they’ve played at least one test match for any number of minutes at some stage in their career. Doesn’t matter if they’re actually any good or they’ve had significant minutes against quality opposition leading up to the tournament.
We’ve picked plenty of guys for World Cup campaigns that had only featured either in the year of the World Cup or the year prior.
I’m willing to guarantee that there will be players in 2027 RWC squad that aren’t in the squad right now.
Also, World Cup, shmups, what we do right now will not really have any sort of bearing on how we play in 2027.
When I look at past campaigns, both successful ones that we won or even outperformed most expectations, there was for example a change in play at the 3Ns of 2010 that didn’t reflect 08 or 09, but were the beginnings of how we would go about it in 2011. There were pitfalls along the way between that marker and entering the Cup.
I even think back to 07 and in 05 and 06 we were playing a certain style that was pretty expansive and then come the RWC we tightened up for that QF, so again what does 05 and 06 actually have to do with 07?
2019, well some say we didn’t learn the lessons of 2017 Lions, but our game had changed from an offload pace game in 2017 to something different in 2019.
