All Blacks 2025
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@ShaquilleOatmeal that's how it works in school sports, but professional rugby is a complete different level
If we bring in newbies every game then they would be abused for not working on combinations which is ultimately where the best team is developed from
With Plummer, he must be the only player under 30 who has been capped and left in the same year in a very long time, maybe just being an all black was more important than being longterm or he already made his mind up@Chuck72 said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal that's how it works in school sports, but professional rugby is a complete different level
If we bring in newbies every game then they would be abused for not working on combinations which is ultimately where the best team is developed from
With Plummer, he must be the only player under 30 who has been capped and left in the same year in a very long time, maybe just being an all black was more important than being longterm or he already made his mind upHe had two guys in NZ ahead of him and a coach who spent every chance he could lobbying to have the rules changed for his pet number 10. There's a good chance he just saw that and realised in reality the door is pretty shut.
We could use the PI player excuse that gets trotted out frequently - that he has to go and earn money to provide for his family ....
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@Chuck72 said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal that's how it works in school sports, but professional rugby is a complete different level
If we bring in newbies every game then they would be abused for not working on combinations which is ultimately where the best team is developed from
With Plummer, he must be the only player under 30 who has been capped and left in the same year in a very long time, maybe just being an all black was more important than being longterm or he already made his mind upHe had two guys in NZ ahead of him and a coach who spent every chance he could lobbying to have the rules changed for his pet number 10. There's a good chance he just saw that and realised in reality the door is pretty shut.
We could use the PI player excuse that gets trotted out frequently - that he has to go and earn money to provide for his family ....
@Nepia It's just realism.
He was in the queue last year with Beaudy and DMac ahead of him. Mo'unga potentially returning, Perofeta, Jacombe and others pressing.
You get a big cash offer from France - sometimes it makes sense to take it.
I'm not of the view that he was going to be our saviour.
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@Nepia It's just realism.
He was in the queue last year with Beaudy and DMac ahead of him. Mo'unga potentially returning, Perofeta, Jacombe and others pressing.
You get a big cash offer from France - sometimes it makes sense to take it.
I'm not of the view that he was going to be our saviour.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia It's just realism.
He was in the queue last year with Beaudy and DMac ahead of him. Mo'unga potentially returning, Perofeta, Jacombe and others pressing.
You get a big cash offer from France - sometimes it makes sense to take it.
I'm not of the view that he was going to be our saviour.
I'm not either, but then I don't think Razor's pet is going to be either.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia It's just realism.
He was in the queue last year with Beaudy and DMac ahead of him. Mo'unga potentially returning, Perofeta, Jacombe and others pressing.
You get a big cash offer from France - sometimes it makes sense to take it.
I'm not of the view that he was going to be our saviour.
I'm not either, but then I don't think Razor's pet is going to be either.
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@Nepia If Sammy Cane didn't get his card, there's a fair likelihood we would have won with Mo.
Shit happens, but he was good enough to win.
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@Nepia If Sammy Cane didn't get his card, there's a fair likelihood we would have won with Mo.
Shit happens, but he was good enough to win.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia If Sammy Cane didn't get his card, there's a fair likelihood we would have won with Mo.
Shit happens, but he was good enough to win.
And the first time? Who are you using to protect (yours) and Razor's pet for that one?
Anyway, Cane had already made 8 times the tackles Frizell made so he thought he'd get into the showers early.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
They're planning on going to RWC2027 with Mo'unga, Beaudy and DMac as their three first fives. Do we need another option?
So that's it is it?
Shop is all closed up?A then 36 year old is already locked in, in apparently the best rugby team in the world.
One would hope we could show a little more ambition in unearthing young talent.
@Frank said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
They're planning on going to RWC2027 with Mo'unga, Beaudy and DMac as their three first fives. Do we need another option?
So that's it is it?
Shop is all closed up?A then 36 year old is already locked in, in apparently the best rugby team in the world.
One would hope we could show a little more ambition in unearthing young talent.
And if RM comes back diminished Razor and we are fucked
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@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
.Robertson has talked about wanting to build depth and he should be trying to put a quality squad together for the World Cup but instead he’s capped guys but barely played them, so there’s no real depth.
Again, I don't agree. There's a few positions we're a bit light, but mostly we've got plenty of depth - especially given we lost 10 players from our 2023 squad and if I recall correctly about 700 caps (I'm prepared to be wrong on this because I can't be fucked checking). Whitelock, Retallick, Coles and Smith all had heaps.
Razor is aiming to have four quality options in every position. What does he have right now in terms of capped options?
Loosehead: Williams, De Groot, Norris, Bower
Tighthead: Lomax, Newell, Tosi, Tu'ungafasi - with varous options who can play both sides.
Hooker: Taylor, Takeiáho, Aumua, McAlister, (Bell)
Loosehead lock: SBarrett, Darry, Lord,
Tighthead lock: Vai'i, Holland, Tuipolotou (Pakman can correct me if I'm wrong on these - some crossover)
Blindside: Parker, Sititi, Vai'i, Blackadder (Frizell)
Openside: Savea, Kirifi, Papali'i, Jacobson
Number 8: Sititi, Savea, Jacobson, Lio-Willie (Sotutu)
Halfback: Roigard, Ratima, Hotham, Christie, (Preston)
First five: Mo'unga, BBarrett, DMac, Perofeta
Second five: JBarrett, Tupaea, Tavatavanawai, Havili
Centre: Proctor, Ioane, ALB, Ennor
Left wing: Clarke, Ioane, Faingaánuku
Right wing: Narawa, Reece, Jordan
Fullback: Jordan, Dmac, BBarrett, LoveI'm doubtless forgetting a few.
But, we just beat the RWC champions and are No. 1 in the world - it doesn't look too bad, two years out from the next tourny!
@Chris-B Sure. If you’re only criteria for a player with the requirements to play in a World Cup knock out game is that they’ve played at least one test match for any number of minutes at some stage in their career. Doesn’t matter if they’re actually any good or they’ve had significant minutes against quality opposition leading up to the tournament.
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@Chuck72 said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal that's how it works in school sports, but professional rugby is a complete different level
If we bring in newbies every game then they would be abused for not working on combinations which is ultimately where the best team is developed from
With Plummer, he must be the only player under 30 who has been capped and left in the same year in a very long time, maybe just being an all black was more important than being longterm or he already made his mind upHe had two guys in NZ ahead of him and a coach who spent every chance he could lobbying to have the rules changed for his pet number 10. There's a good chance he just saw that and realised in reality the door is pretty shut.
We could use the PI player excuse that gets trotted out frequently - that he has to go and earn money to provide for his family ....
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
We could use the PI player excuse that gets trotted out frequently - that he has to go and earn money to provide for his family ....
And there is nothing wrong with that if had that chouce but still after 1 season of new world cup cycle he leaves.
Maybe he is smart enough to realize that his overseas stocks where as good as they were going to get
But I struggle to get on the bandwagon that he is international quality because he leaves without giving it a few seasons
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When patty comes back does he go back to the bench , holland goes back to lock , tupou back to 6 ,
One of sititi or Parker to the bench with patty , and kirifi out of the 23 .
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@Jet said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@His-Bobness said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Frank Yes, there’s still plenty to admire about BB. And he is a quintessential professional. No argument. My point, however, is the team is not developing. They’ve risked new names in the forwards in the past year and it’s paid off - Sititi, Holland, Parker - but they’re still shuffling from the same old deck in the backs. It seems inordinately conservative. To be fair, the half-back pandemic has tied their hands.
I think they actually kneecap their own bolters too with this method of conservatism.
You get selected for the squad ala Love or Leroy Carter and then instead of riding the crest of the wave of the media and familial circle jerk that follows, you're left to stew in camp for 4 or 5 or 6 weeks without getting a gig.
You must be a ball of nerves by the time you get your chance, and everything is riding on it (in your mind).
Whereas post initial selection, give them minutes off the bench in the first test or so and they can relax into camp after getting their cap and they properly feel like they belong.
Its also a reason I lament the disappearance of the early season "touch up" against a Fiji or a Tonga.
Give lads first caps, get monkeys off backs, pre/post match press conferences/interviews etc...then get on with the job at hand for the rest of the season with a fully bought in and not disillusioned squad.
Now we are having conversations like "you cant start Love against the Boks"......."you cant start Preston"......."you cant throw him in there" etc etc. Its nonsense.
I can't stand hearing this from people. This player can't play this game because he didn't play in other games he wasn't selected for either. It'll take forever easing players in waiting for them to tick up enough minutes against Japan and Italy before they can be promoted to five minutes off the bench against Wales etc.
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@His-Bobness said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Frank Yes, there’s still plenty to admire about BB. And he is a quintessential professional. No argument. My point, however, is the team is not developing. They’ve risked new names in the forwards in the past year and it’s paid off - Sititi, Holland, Parker - but they’re still shuffling from the same old deck in the backs. It seems inordinately conservative. To be fair, the half-back pandemic has tied their hands.
I think they actually kneecap their own bolters too with this method of conservatism.
You get selected for the squad ala Love or Leroy Carter and then instead of riding the crest of the wave of the media and familial circle jerk that follows, you're left to stew in camp for 4 or 5 or 6 weeks without getting a gig.
You must be a ball of nerves by the time you get your chance, and everything is riding on it (in your mind).
Whereas post initial selection, give them minutes off the bench in the first test or so and they can relax into camp after getting their cap and they properly feel like they belong.
Its also a reason I lament the disappearance of the early season "touch up" against a Fiji or a Tonga.
Give lads first caps, get monkeys off backs, pre/post match press conferences/interviews etc...then get on with the job at hand for the rest of the season with a fully bought in and not disillusioned squad.
Now we are having conversations like "you cant start Love against the Boks"......."you cant start Preston"......."you cant throw him in there" etc etc. Its nonsense.
I can't stand hearing this from people. This player can't play this game because he didn't play in other games he wasn't selected for either. It'll take forever easing players in waiting for them to tick up enough minutes against Japan and Italy before they can be promoted to five minutes off the bench against Wales etc.
Agree.
Preston didn't fuck up on debut in biggest game for two years.
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When patty comes back does he go back to the bench , holland goes back to lock , tupou back to 6 ,
One of sititi or Parker to the bench with patty , and kirifi out of the 23 .
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks 2025:
When patty comes back does he go back to the bench , holland goes back to lock , tupou back to 6 ,
One of sititi or Parker to the bench with patty , and kirifi out of the 23 .
I'd say they'll want to continue developing Parker and Vaai is our best lock so both start. It'll be a choice of Holland or Patty T on the bench with one missing out altogether.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
Shit happens, but he was good enough to win.
if he or Jordie could kick, we'd have won. So nealry good enough.
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
Shit happens, but he was good enough to win.
if he or Jordie could kick, we'd have won. So nealry good enough.
Years ago they got Steve Davis and various other snooker players to play a hundred (or actually I think a thousand) shots from the same place - a relatively easy pot. Once they'd removed statistical abberrations it was clear that Davis was the most accurate potter.
You could do the same thing with Jordie and Mo. they'll make those kicks a reasonable proportion of the time.
Fozzie's great mistake was picking ALB on the bench instead of Dave Havili.
Sub Dave on for Jordie and he makes that kick every day of the week and twice on Sundays..
Boom!!!
Because Ta$man players score lots of points in RWC2023 play-offs where most others fail!
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Fozzie and Razor have both had the same challenge previous coaches didn't - they got/get no warm up games anymore. We used to blood players against the Island nations etc, but since Fozzie took over we've just been going straight into Tier 1 nations to start the season. Neither have had any real chance to blood players without throwing them in the deep end and hoping they don't sink. Given the ABs are expected to win every match, I have quite a bit of sympathy for both coaches being put in that position. Why don't we do warm up games anymore?
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
Why don't we do warm up games anymore?
Test windows I'm picking. Those island teams are now mostly full of pros playing in Europe. So we'd be stuck playing something less like we did against Tonga last time out. (Fuck that was 4 years ago ... )
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@Chris-B Sure. If you’re only criteria for a player with the requirements to play in a World Cup knock out game is that they’ve played at least one test match for any number of minutes at some stage in their career. Doesn’t matter if they’re actually any good or they’ve had significant minutes against quality opposition leading up to the tournament.
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B Sure. If you’re only criteria for a player with the requirements to play in a World Cup knock out game is that they’ve played at least one test match for any number of minutes at some stage in their career. Doesn’t matter if they’re actually any good or they’ve had significant minutes against quality opposition leading up to the tournament.
We’ve picked plenty of guys for World Cup campaigns that had only featured either in the year of the World Cup or the year prior.
I’m willing to guarantee that there will be players in 2027 RWC squad that aren’t in the squad right now.
Also, World Cup, shmups, what we do right now will not really have any sort of bearing on how we play in 2027.
When I look at past campaigns, both successful ones that we won or even outperformed most expectations, there was for example a change in play at the 3Ns of 2010 that didn’t reflect 08 or 09, but were the beginnings of how we would go about it in 2011. There were pitfalls along the way between that marker and entering the Cup.
I even think back to 07 and in 05 and 06 we were playing a certain style that was pretty expansive and then come the RWC we tightened up for that QF, so again what does 05 and 06 actually have to do with 07?
2019, well some say we didn’t learn the lessons of 2017 Lions, but our game had changed from an offload pace game in 2017 to something different in 2019.
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Yeah I have to agree with @Chris-B, I am no Razor fan but he's done a pretty good job developing new talent overall given the complete lack of 'easy' games the ABs get these days. People talk about 10 a lot, but other than maybe starting DMac again I don't see any other options. Plummer was adequate behind a dominant Blues pack (dominance you rarely get the next level up), Reihana is nowhere near test level, Love gets talked about but hasn't even been trusted with the keys to the Canes backline for a season yet. Unless Love starts playing 10 at Super level, BB, DMac and Mo'unga are likely it for us this WC - and TBH we could do a lot worse.
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I not sure if BB is as bad as some seem to think. Thought he went ok on weekend, I know it's trendy online to get into any Barrett, but he's the best we got. Anyone suggesting Love at 10 (and I a fan of his) is perhaps just a little loopy. He has played about 3 games at super there, and no way is he even close to be a 10 at test level. I would personally have Jacomb, Reihana etc ahead of him, because they have played there. Same as Christie, I saw nothing while he was on field on Sat to suggest that Preston is a better option, and I not really a Christie fan, but until Ratima or someone is fit, he's the best option.
Mind you that just my thinking, and I thought DMac at 15 and Jordan at 14 looked best we had this year. mainly because DMac took more high kicks than Jordan has at 15 all year.
But they just my opinions, and plenty obviously have others.@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:
Anyone suggesting Love at 10 (and I a fan of his) is perhaps just a little loopy.
Call me loopy but I'd be happy to see Love given a run at 10. Not throwing him the keys long term but a start wouldn't be a bad thing.
If we win the next two tests would be more than happy for him to have a crack in Perth.
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@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter They need to change their approach. The All Blacks still act as if inexperienced players should only get game time against minnows or when injuries force their hand. We always hear about the need to rest players and avoid overloading them. So why not rotate in one or two promising players each game, giving them a chance against quality opposition alongside the established core? If they handle it, reward them with another shot straight away. If not, let them bide their time until the next opening.
Isn't that largely what's been happening?
Test 1: Holland, Lio-Willie, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi
Test 2: Vaa'i at 6. Narawa, Tavatavanawai. Another go for Holland, CLW, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi.
Test 3: Kirifi starting. Love, McAllister, Hotham. Another go for Holland, CLW, Tavatavanawai.
Test 4: VaaĂ at 6. Holland, Kirifi and Proctor all starting. Norris on the bench.
Test 5: Parker starting. Vaai, Holland, Proctor, Lord.
Test 6. Parker, Proctor, Narawa, Holland, Kirifi, Preston.@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter They need to change their approach. The All Blacks still act as if inexperienced players should only get game time against minnows or when injuries force their hand. We always hear about the need to rest players and avoid overloading them. So why not rotate in one or two promising players each game, giving them a chance against quality opposition alongside the established core? If they handle it, reward them with another shot straight away. If not, let them bide their time until the next opening.
Isn't that largely what's been happening?
Test 1: Holland, Lio-Willie, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi
Test 2: Vaa'i at 6. Narawa, Tavatavanawai. Another go for Holland, CLW, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi.
Test 3: Kirifi starting. Love, McAllister, Hotham. Another go for Holland, CLW, Tavatavanawai.
Test 4: VaaĂ at 6. Holland, Kirifi and Proctor all starting. Norris on the bench.
Test 5: Parker starting. Vaai, Holland, Proctor, Lord.
Test 6. Parker, Proctor, Narawa, Holland, Kirifi, Preston.You and your "facts".
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter They need to change their approach. The All Blacks still act as if inexperienced players should only get game time against minnows or when injuries force their hand. We always hear about the need to rest players and avoid overloading them. So why not rotate in one or two promising players each game, giving them a chance against quality opposition alongside the established core? If they handle it, reward them with another shot straight away. If not, let them bide their time until the next opening.
Isn't that largely what's been happening?
Test 1: Holland, Lio-Willie, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi
Test 2: Vaa'i at 6. Narawa, Tavatavanawai. Another go for Holland, CLW, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi.
Test 3: Kirifi starting. Love, McAllister, Hotham. Another go for Holland, CLW, Tavatavanawai.
Test 4: VaaĂ at 6. Holland, Kirifi and Proctor all starting. Norris on the bench.
Test 5: Parker starting. Vaai, Holland, Proctor, Lord.
Test 6. Parker, Proctor, Narawa, Holland, Kirifi, Preston.You and your "facts".
@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter They need to change their approach. The All Blacks still act as if inexperienced players should only get game time against minnows or when injuries force their hand. We always hear about the need to rest players and avoid overloading them. So why not rotate in one or two promising players each game, giving them a chance against quality opposition alongside the established core? If they handle it, reward them with another shot straight away. If not, let them bide their time until the next opening.
Isn't that largely what's been happening?
Test 1: Holland, Lio-Willie, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi
Test 2: Vaa'i at 6. Narawa, Tavatavanawai. Another go for Holland, CLW, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi.
Test 3: Kirifi starting. Love, McAllister, Hotham. Another go for Holland, CLW, Tavatavanawai.
Test 4: VaaĂ at 6. Holland, Kirifi and Proctor all starting. Norris on the bench.
Test 5: Parker starting. Vaai, Holland, Proctor, Lord.
Test 6. Parker, Proctor, Narawa, Holland, Kirifi, Preston.You and your "facts".
Shhh don’t let anything get in the way of the fact Razor has built more depth in the squad than Hansen and Foster ever did. Isn’t it nice to have six world class props, excellent depth at lock.
Having a six play six, a seven play seven, and an eight play eight for the first time since 2015?
Ooo and a midfield that hasn’t got ALB or Reiko in it.
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
Plummer was adequate behind a dominant Blues pack
Heresy
Plummer was extremely effective playing a style whereby outside backs only got ball once oppo blue with strangulation.
Not sure any other 10 in NZ rugby could have filled that role better.
