All Blacks 2025
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When patty comes back does he go back to the bench , holland goes back to lock , tupou back to 6 ,
One of sititi or Parker to the bench with patty , and kirifi out of the 23 .
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@Jet said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@His-Bobness said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Frank Yes, there’s still plenty to admire about BB. And he is a quintessential professional. No argument. My point, however, is the team is not developing. They’ve risked new names in the forwards in the past year and it’s paid off - Sititi, Holland, Parker - but they’re still shuffling from the same old deck in the backs. It seems inordinately conservative. To be fair, the half-back pandemic has tied their hands.
I think they actually kneecap their own bolters too with this method of conservatism.
You get selected for the squad ala Love or Leroy Carter and then instead of riding the crest of the wave of the media and familial circle jerk that follows, you're left to stew in camp for 4 or 5 or 6 weeks without getting a gig.
You must be a ball of nerves by the time you get your chance, and everything is riding on it (in your mind).
Whereas post initial selection, give them minutes off the bench in the first test or so and they can relax into camp after getting their cap and they properly feel like they belong.
Its also a reason I lament the disappearance of the early season "touch up" against a Fiji or a Tonga.
Give lads first caps, get monkeys off backs, pre/post match press conferences/interviews etc...then get on with the job at hand for the rest of the season with a fully bought in and not disillusioned squad.
Now we are having conversations like "you cant start Love against the Boks"......."you cant start Preston"......."you cant throw him in there" etc etc. Its nonsense.
I can't stand hearing this from people. This player can't play this game because he didn't play in other games he wasn't selected for either. It'll take forever easing players in waiting for them to tick up enough minutes against Japan and Italy before they can be promoted to five minutes off the bench against Wales etc.
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@His-Bobness said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Frank Yes, there’s still plenty to admire about BB. And he is a quintessential professional. No argument. My point, however, is the team is not developing. They’ve risked new names in the forwards in the past year and it’s paid off - Sititi, Holland, Parker - but they’re still shuffling from the same old deck in the backs. It seems inordinately conservative. To be fair, the half-back pandemic has tied their hands.
I think they actually kneecap their own bolters too with this method of conservatism.
You get selected for the squad ala Love or Leroy Carter and then instead of riding the crest of the wave of the media and familial circle jerk that follows, you're left to stew in camp for 4 or 5 or 6 weeks without getting a gig.
You must be a ball of nerves by the time you get your chance, and everything is riding on it (in your mind).
Whereas post initial selection, give them minutes off the bench in the first test or so and they can relax into camp after getting their cap and they properly feel like they belong.
Its also a reason I lament the disappearance of the early season "touch up" against a Fiji or a Tonga.
Give lads first caps, get monkeys off backs, pre/post match press conferences/interviews etc...then get on with the job at hand for the rest of the season with a fully bought in and not disillusioned squad.
Now we are having conversations like "you cant start Love against the Boks"......."you cant start Preston"......."you cant throw him in there" etc etc. Its nonsense.
I can't stand hearing this from people. This player can't play this game because he didn't play in other games he wasn't selected for either. It'll take forever easing players in waiting for them to tick up enough minutes against Japan and Italy before they can be promoted to five minutes off the bench against Wales etc.
Agree.
Preston didn't fuck up on debut in biggest game for two years.
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When patty comes back does he go back to the bench , holland goes back to lock , tupou back to 6 ,
One of sititi or Parker to the bench with patty , and kirifi out of the 23 .
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks 2025:
When patty comes back does he go back to the bench , holland goes back to lock , tupou back to 6 ,
One of sititi or Parker to the bench with patty , and kirifi out of the 23 .
I'd say they'll want to continue developing Parker and Vaai is our best lock so both start. It'll be a choice of Holland or Patty T on the bench with one missing out altogether.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
Shit happens, but he was good enough to win.
if he or Jordie could kick, we'd have won. So nealry good enough.
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
Shit happens, but he was good enough to win.
if he or Jordie could kick, we'd have won. So nealry good enough.
Years ago they got Steve Davis and various other snooker players to play a hundred (or actually I think a thousand) shots from the same place - a relatively easy pot. Once they'd removed statistical abberrations it was clear that Davis was the most accurate potter.
You could do the same thing with Jordie and Mo. they'll make those kicks a reasonable proportion of the time.
Fozzie's great mistake was picking ALB on the bench instead of Dave Havili.
Sub Dave on for Jordie and he makes that kick every day of the week and twice on Sundays..
Boom!!!
Because Ta$man players score lots of points in RWC2023 play-offs where most others fail!
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Fozzie and Razor have both had the same challenge previous coaches didn't - they got/get no warm up games anymore. We used to blood players against the Island nations etc, but since Fozzie took over we've just been going straight into Tier 1 nations to start the season. Neither have had any real chance to blood players without throwing them in the deep end and hoping they don't sink. Given the ABs are expected to win every match, I have quite a bit of sympathy for both coaches being put in that position. Why don't we do warm up games anymore?
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
Why don't we do warm up games anymore?
Test windows I'm picking. Those island teams are now mostly full of pros playing in Europe. So we'd be stuck playing something less like we did against Tonga last time out. (Fuck that was 4 years ago ... )
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@Chris-B Sure. If you’re only criteria for a player with the requirements to play in a World Cup knock out game is that they’ve played at least one test match for any number of minutes at some stage in their career. Doesn’t matter if they’re actually any good or they’ve had significant minutes against quality opposition leading up to the tournament.
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B Sure. If you’re only criteria for a player with the requirements to play in a World Cup knock out game is that they’ve played at least one test match for any number of minutes at some stage in their career. Doesn’t matter if they’re actually any good or they’ve had significant minutes against quality opposition leading up to the tournament.
We’ve picked plenty of guys for World Cup campaigns that had only featured either in the year of the World Cup or the year prior.
I’m willing to guarantee that there will be players in 2027 RWC squad that aren’t in the squad right now.
Also, World Cup, shmups, what we do right now will not really have any sort of bearing on how we play in 2027.
When I look at past campaigns, both successful ones that we won or even outperformed most expectations, there was for example a change in play at the 3Ns of 2010 that didn’t reflect 08 or 09, but were the beginnings of how we would go about it in 2011. There were pitfalls along the way between that marker and entering the Cup.
I even think back to 07 and in 05 and 06 we were playing a certain style that was pretty expansive and then come the RWC we tightened up for that QF, so again what does 05 and 06 actually have to do with 07?
2019, well some say we didn’t learn the lessons of 2017 Lions, but our game had changed from an offload pace game in 2017 to something different in 2019.
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Yeah I have to agree with @Chris-B, I am no Razor fan but he's done a pretty good job developing new talent overall given the complete lack of 'easy' games the ABs get these days. People talk about 10 a lot, but other than maybe starting DMac again I don't see any other options. Plummer was adequate behind a dominant Blues pack (dominance you rarely get the next level up), Reihana is nowhere near test level, Love gets talked about but hasn't even been trusted with the keys to the Canes backline for a season yet. Unless Love starts playing 10 at Super level, BB, DMac and Mo'unga are likely it for us this WC - and TBH we could do a lot worse.
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I not sure if BB is as bad as some seem to think. Thought he went ok on weekend, I know it's trendy online to get into any Barrett, but he's the best we got. Anyone suggesting Love at 10 (and I a fan of his) is perhaps just a little loopy. He has played about 3 games at super there, and no way is he even close to be a 10 at test level. I would personally have Jacomb, Reihana etc ahead of him, because they have played there. Same as Christie, I saw nothing while he was on field on Sat to suggest that Preston is a better option, and I not really a Christie fan, but until Ratima or someone is fit, he's the best option.
Mind you that just my thinking, and I thought DMac at 15 and Jordan at 14 looked best we had this year. mainly because DMac took more high kicks than Jordan has at 15 all year.
But they just my opinions, and plenty obviously have others.@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:
Anyone suggesting Love at 10 (and I a fan of his) is perhaps just a little loopy.
Call me loopy but I'd be happy to see Love given a run at 10. Not throwing him the keys long term but a start wouldn't be a bad thing.
If we win the next two tests would be more than happy for him to have a crack in Perth.
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@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter They need to change their approach. The All Blacks still act as if inexperienced players should only get game time against minnows or when injuries force their hand. We always hear about the need to rest players and avoid overloading them. So why not rotate in one or two promising players each game, giving them a chance against quality opposition alongside the established core? If they handle it, reward them with another shot straight away. If not, let them bide their time until the next opening.
Isn't that largely what's been happening?
Test 1: Holland, Lio-Willie, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi
Test 2: Vaa'i at 6. Narawa, Tavatavanawai. Another go for Holland, CLW, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi.
Test 3: Kirifi starting. Love, McAllister, Hotham. Another go for Holland, CLW, Tavatavanawai.
Test 4: Vaaí at 6. Holland, Kirifi and Proctor all starting. Norris on the bench.
Test 5: Parker starting. Vaai, Holland, Proctor, Lord.
Test 6. Parker, Proctor, Narawa, Holland, Kirifi, Preston.@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter They need to change their approach. The All Blacks still act as if inexperienced players should only get game time against minnows or when injuries force their hand. We always hear about the need to rest players and avoid overloading them. So why not rotate in one or two promising players each game, giving them a chance against quality opposition alongside the established core? If they handle it, reward them with another shot straight away. If not, let them bide their time until the next opening.
Isn't that largely what's been happening?
Test 1: Holland, Lio-Willie, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi
Test 2: Vaa'i at 6. Narawa, Tavatavanawai. Another go for Holland, CLW, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi.
Test 3: Kirifi starting. Love, McAllister, Hotham. Another go for Holland, CLW, Tavatavanawai.
Test 4: Vaaí at 6. Holland, Kirifi and Proctor all starting. Norris on the bench.
Test 5: Parker starting. Vaai, Holland, Proctor, Lord.
Test 6. Parker, Proctor, Narawa, Holland, Kirifi, Preston.You and your "facts".
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter They need to change their approach. The All Blacks still act as if inexperienced players should only get game time against minnows or when injuries force their hand. We always hear about the need to rest players and avoid overloading them. So why not rotate in one or two promising players each game, giving them a chance against quality opposition alongside the established core? If they handle it, reward them with another shot straight away. If not, let them bide their time until the next opening.
Isn't that largely what's been happening?
Test 1: Holland, Lio-Willie, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi
Test 2: Vaa'i at 6. Narawa, Tavatavanawai. Another go for Holland, CLW, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi.
Test 3: Kirifi starting. Love, McAllister, Hotham. Another go for Holland, CLW, Tavatavanawai.
Test 4: Vaaí at 6. Holland, Kirifi and Proctor all starting. Norris on the bench.
Test 5: Parker starting. Vaai, Holland, Proctor, Lord.
Test 6. Parker, Proctor, Narawa, Holland, Kirifi, Preston.You and your "facts".
@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter They need to change their approach. The All Blacks still act as if inexperienced players should only get game time against minnows or when injuries force their hand. We always hear about the need to rest players and avoid overloading them. So why not rotate in one or two promising players each game, giving them a chance against quality opposition alongside the established core? If they handle it, reward them with another shot straight away. If not, let them bide their time until the next opening.
Isn't that largely what's been happening?
Test 1: Holland, Lio-Willie, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi
Test 2: Vaa'i at 6. Narawa, Tavatavanawai. Another go for Holland, CLW, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi.
Test 3: Kirifi starting. Love, McAllister, Hotham. Another go for Holland, CLW, Tavatavanawai.
Test 4: Vaaí at 6. Holland, Kirifi and Proctor all starting. Norris on the bench.
Test 5: Parker starting. Vaai, Holland, Proctor, Lord.
Test 6. Parker, Proctor, Narawa, Holland, Kirifi, Preston.You and your "facts".
Shhh don’t let anything get in the way of the fact Razor has built more depth in the squad than Hansen and Foster ever did. Isn’t it nice to have six world class props, excellent depth at lock.
Having a six play six, a seven play seven, and an eight play eight for the first time since 2015?
Ooo and a midfield that hasn’t got ALB or Reiko in it.
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
Plummer was adequate behind a dominant Blues pack
Heresy
Plummer was extremely effective playing a style whereby outside backs only got ball once oppo blue with strangulation.
Not sure any other 10 in NZ rugby could have filled that role better.
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter They need to change their approach. The All Blacks still act as if inexperienced players should only get game time against minnows or when injuries force their hand. We always hear about the need to rest players and avoid overloading them. So why not rotate in one or two promising players each game, giving them a chance against quality opposition alongside the established core? If they handle it, reward them with another shot straight away. If not, let them bide their time until the next opening.
Isn't that largely what's been happening?
Test 1: Holland, Lio-Willie, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi
Test 2: Vaa'i at 6. Narawa, Tavatavanawai. Another go for Holland, CLW, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi.
Test 3: Kirifi starting. Love, McAllister, Hotham. Another go for Holland, CLW, Tavatavanawai.
Test 4: Vaaí at 6. Holland, Kirifi and Proctor all starting. Norris on the bench.
Test 5: Parker starting. Vaai, Holland, Proctor, Lord.
Test 6. Parker, Proctor, Narawa, Holland, Kirifi, Preston.You and your "facts".
Shhh don’t let anything get in the way of the fact Razor has built more depth in the squad than Hansen and Foster ever did. Isn’t it nice to have six world class props, excellent depth at lock.
Having a six play six, a seven play seven, and an eight play eight for the first time since 2015?
Ooo and a midfield that hasn’t got ALB or Reiko in it.
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
Shhh don’t let anything get in the way of the fact Razor has built more depth in the squad than Hansen and Foster ever did. Isn’t it nice to have six world class props, excellent depth at lock.
Be interesting to know how many of those players Razor built depth with were originally selected into the ABs by him?
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@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
Shhh don’t let anything get in the way of the fact Razor has built more depth in the squad than Hansen and Foster ever did. Isn’t it nice to have six world class props, excellent depth at lock.
Be interesting to know how many of those players Razor built depth with were originally selected into the ABs by him?
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
Shhh don’t let anything get in the way of the fact Razor has built more depth in the squad than Hansen and Foster ever did. Isn’t it nice to have six world class props, excellent depth at lock.
Be interesting to know how many of those players Razor built depth with were originally selected into the ABs by him?
Ratima, proctor, Hotham, George Bell, Sititi, Tosi, Darry, Plummer, Lakai, Love, Holland, CLW, Kirifi, Norris, Tavatavanawai, Parker, Preston
17 players in 1.5 seasons.
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@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
Shhh don’t let anything get in the way of the fact Razor has built more depth in the squad than Hansen and Foster ever did. Isn’t it nice to have six world class props, excellent depth at lock.
Be interesting to know how many of those players Razor built depth with were originally selected into the ABs by him?
Ratima, proctor, Hotham, George Bell, Sititi, Tosi, Darry, Plummer, Lakai, Love, Holland, CLW, Kirifi, Norris, Tavatavanawai, Parker, Preston
17 players in 1.5 seasons.
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@pakman said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb About a one in three hit rate.
Out of the 32 debutants Foster made between 2020 - 2023. Six were in the final 23 for the RWC final. Three starting (Jordan, Tele’a; De Groot). Three on the bench (Williams, Christie, Taukei’aho).
Foster also debuted Peter Umaga Jensen, Cullen Grace, Aidan Ross, Narawa, Stevenson, McLeod for one test.
Alex Hodgman, Josh Lord, Pita Gus Sowakula, Fakatava, RTS, Perofeta, Finaua for under 5 tests.
Only seven of the 32 have played over 20 tests (Clarke, Va’ai, Jordan, Bower, Christie, De Groot, Taukei’aho). Take away the caps under Robertson and that falls significantly.
I’d say that’s an absolute dogshite hit rate
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@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
Shhh don’t let anything get in the way of the fact Razor has built more depth in the squad than Hansen and Foster ever did. Isn’t it nice to have six world class props, excellent depth at lock.
Be interesting to know how many of those players Razor built depth with were originally selected into the ABs by him?
Ratima, proctor, Hotham, George Bell, Sititi, Tosi, Darry, Plummer, Lakai, Love, Holland, CLW, Kirifi, Norris, Tavatavanawai, Parker, Preston
17 players in 1.5 seasons.
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
Shhh don’t let anything get in the way of the fact Razor has built more depth in the squad than Hansen and Foster ever did. Isn’t it nice to have six world class props, excellent depth at lock.
Be interesting to know how many of those players Razor built depth with were originally selected into the ABs by him?
Ratima, proctor, Hotham, George Bell, Sititi, Tosi, Darry, Plummer, Lakai, Love, Holland, CLW, Kirifi, Norris, Tavatavanawai.
15 players in 1.5 seasons.
That's a lot of props and locks.
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@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
Shhh don’t let anything get in the way of the fact Razor has built more depth in the squad than Hansen and Foster ever did. Isn’t it nice to have six world class props, excellent depth at lock.
Be interesting to know how many of those players Razor built depth with were originally selected into the ABs by him?
Ratima, proctor, Hotham, George Bell, Sititi, Tosi, Darry, Plummer, Lakai, Love, Holland, CLW, Kirifi, Norris, Tavatavanawai.
15 players in 1.5 seasons.
That's a lot of props and locks.
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
Shhh don’t let anything get in the way of the fact Razor has built more depth in the squad than Hansen and Foster ever did. Isn’t it nice to have six world class props, excellent depth at lock.
Be interesting to know how many of those players Razor built depth with were originally selected into the ABs by him?
Ratima, proctor, Hotham, George Bell, Sititi, Tosi, Darry, Plummer, Lakai, Love, Holland, CLW, Kirifi, Norris, Tavatavanawai.
15 players in 1.5 seasons.
That's a lot of props and locks.
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
Shhh don’t let anything get in the way of the fact Razor has built more depth in the squad than Hansen and Foster ever did. Isn’t it nice to have six world class props, excellent depth at lock.
Be interesting to know how many of those players Razor built depth with were originally selected into the ABs by him?
Ratima, proctor, Hotham, George Bell, Sititi, Tosi, Darry, Plummer, Lakai, Love, Holland, CLW, Kirifi, Norris, Tavatavanawai.
15 players in 1.5 seasons.
That's a lot of props and locks.
Well Whitelock and Brodie retiring and the fact Foster only debuted two locks in 4 years (Va’ai and Lord) meant that had to happen.
Props; Lomax and Williams have been injured, Nepo Laulala left NZ, and the ABs desperately need a reserve front 3, which they now have
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@pakman said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb About a one in three hit rate.
Ratima, proctor, Hotham, George Bell, Sititi, Tosi, Darry, Plummer, Lakai, Love, Holland, CLW, Kirifi, Norris, Tavatavanawai, Parker, Preston
Plummer is gone, who else in this list isn’t a hit? Arguably CLW but he more than held his own and is a good back up at 8.
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@pakman said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb About a one in three hit rate.
Ratima, proctor, Hotham, George Bell, Sititi, Tosi, Darry, Plummer, Lakai, Love, Holland, CLW, Kirifi, Norris, Tavatavanawai, Parker, Preston
Plummer is gone, who else in this list isn’t a hit? Arguably CLW but he more than held his own and is a good back up at 8.
