All Blacks 2025
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@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@mohikamo said in All Blacks 2025:
@pakman said in All Blacks 2025:
Jeremy Paul is quite 'volatile', but his observations, from about 28:00 on, in respect of the 2025 AB squad are very insightful:
One thing that you have to remember is that SA (and now Aus) have more flexibility in making selections, than Robertson.
It’s kinda like Rassie (and now Schmidt as well) can pick players for his club team, that are not actually contracted to his club.
The squad dynamic is different. Players can be moved in and out so easily.
No SA player will ever feel he’s out of the Bok picture. Even if he’s not currently in the squad, living wherever, playing for the Red Diamonds.
A more contemporary type modus operandi.Robertson is more restricted in what he can do.
It’s almost like the AB team for 27WC is already picked and, most important, contracted.
In terms of player selections, he’s committed already. He can only tinker.
I have no doubt, if he could have, he would have picked at least one player who was a member of another club this season.
For NZ, if you aint in the club, you may as well go off-shore, earn some coin, and that’s the end of it.
You are either in, or you're out.Correct. Robertson would have selected Richie Mo'unga.
The thing that’s puts people off about selecting overseas players is that we’ve seen them come back to New Zealand and play incredibly poorly far too often.
The question there is: why do players based in Japan front up for South Africa but, Ardie Savea, for example, comes back from his sabbatical a complete waste of space for a full season?
The Bok’s Japan based players, bar Kolbe, all took some time to get back to the level expected of them after their time in Japan. Even PSDT. And Marx took even longer.
They had to up their game to stay in Rassie’s plans. Maybe the AB players returning from sabbatical don’t feel their place is under enough threat?
@stodders said in All Blacks 2025:
Maybe the AB players
returning from sabbaticaldon’t feel their place is under enough threat?Sadly for the past decade or so, it seemed harder to get dropped, as many have joked, our best selector the past 3 or 4 years has been injury.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
I think you're way over egging the pudding, when we were completely dominant for the better part of a decade it was under the exact system we have now, and for the majority of that time period the Saffas could select from overseas.
Aside from that one (overhyped) player, there's no one overseas that would be picked. The pro select from overseas brigade always bring up some geriatrics/not up for test rugby anymore (e.g. A Smith and BBBR) or guys who have been playing for Ireland for the better part of a decade and try and use them as examples.
I've noticed a distinct whiff of defending Razor by claiming he's not able to chose his own players, when really he just hasn't been up to it coaching-wise so far. Fingers crossed he's learning on the job how to coach international rugby. Plus, he's going to have to hope his little overhyped 10 pays off, as much as I will shout I told you so I'll be gutted if he doesn't pay off and we continue to be relatively shit.
You said it.
We were completely dominant.
But times change, and the old thinking and way of doing things is not cutting it anymore.
Happens everywhere in society, all the time.
It’s all relative, but I’d say we are maybe not quite as good as we were, but we’re still darned good.
Having just said that, but were we really that good.
We missed out on a several WCs when we were favourites.
Ran into SF/F buzz saws several times, and our game couldn’t withstand the pressure.
What’s changed is the other guys have got better, they’ve figured us out, and moved on.There are very few players overseas that would be picked now, exactly because of the current restriction.
I’d say if the restriction was dropped, the make up of the AB squad would look very like the SA squad very quickly.Not defending Robertson, but I can see he’s been worked into a corner selection wise.
Probably of his own making.
Him (assuming him) and NZR signed a lot of veteran ABs, thru to 27 [assuming again].
They are all players who have not been dominant at all for the last 7 years (No 1 ranked for only 98 days days in that 7 year period, and no WCs).
Players who are constantly being whinged about (rightly) on this site.
Robertson is pretty much locked himself into the current squad, thru to 27.
This is not the case with Rassie; he can chop and change, and pick who ever the fuck he wants.
And the Aussies are moving in this direction too.@mohikamo said in All Blacks 2025:
We were completely dominant.
But times change, and the old thinking and way of doing things is not cutting it anymore.Which may or may not have anything to do with whether we select players from overseas, and which doesn't mean that what works for one country, which is flavour of the month now, will work for us.
@mohikamo said in All Blacks 2025:
There are very few players overseas that would be picked now, exactly because of the current restriction.
I’d say if the restriction was dropped, the make up of the AB squad would look very like the SA squad very quickly.The game in NZ would be done then, the people who complain about the NPC not having all the best players (often from the populous franchise areas) are then going to do the same with Super. We are not South Africa, we are not in the same situation as them, therefore emulating them is not guaranteed to be successful.
@mohikamo said in All Blacks 2025:
Not defending Robertson, but I can see he’s been worked into a corner selection wise.
No. He selects who he wants aside from one player (two if we're going to include the flake Frizell) and that player is coming back. If Razor was forced to select players he didn't want it would have leaked by now - AB rugby leaks like a sieve as evidenced by the number of posters on here these days who know the team before it's announced.
During the Fozzie era our problem was Fozzie, and everything would be righted once Razor arrived, Razor has arrived and now the problem is we're not emulating the Saffas. :man_shrugging_medium-dark_skin_tone:
@mohikamo said in All Blacks 2025:
The second column are those who are no longer eligible for NZ.
Those numbers halve when you remove those players and the MLR players who are often playing NPC in NZ and only going to MLR when they don't receive Super contracts.
There's a point where players just aren't good enough so when they go overseas they reduce NZ depth, but they aren't weakening the AB pool. I'm sure the players in Japan D3 aren't going to be elevated to the ABs any time soon.
There's also a point where a player just isn't going to be selected despite them being good enough, so they don't really weaken the pool either, think Akira, and probably Sotutu in the future.
There's also retirees from international rugby who take up final overseas contracts for financial reasons.
All of those groups give some perspective to the raw numbers you have posted.
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The other challenge you would have with a much larger eligibility pool would be tracking a lot more players in different places.
Leroy Carter was the top Kiwi try scorer in super but that wasn't enough to get him into the AB squad to begin with and then he didnt start his first match until the 7th game of the season.
If he was doing what he was doing in Hamilton for someone like Harlequins would he have been more likely to have made the team? Or less? It's not a rhetorical question - I genuinely don't know.
Whether players are in NZ or overseas you still have to be a good judge of talent and if you ignore form I don't think it changes much.
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And MLR is heartland level, so not a good ground to select players from.
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If Robertson could select players from overseas, he’d just be selecting more past-it players. He values experience over everything else. Holland, Carter, Parker etc never would have been given a chance.
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Yeah this stuff about Razor not being able to select players, apart from the best 10 the game has ever seen Richie Mo'unga and a role player who made his tackles, cleaned rucks and carried off the 9 close to the ruck, Shannon Frizzell (basically the Tongan version of Reuben Thorne), who are the all these overseas players that Razor can't select? A broken down Sam Cane? 34 year old TJ Perenara? We know he and his Crusaders mates hate Blues players so none of them are gonna get picked from overseas, they barely get picked playing at home!
So please, for the people who are saying that Razor is getting restricted from picking overseas players, who are they apart from Mo'unga and Frizell?
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Yeah this stuff about Razor not being able to select players, apart from the best 10 the game has ever seen Richie Mo'unga and a role player who made his tackles, cleaned rucks and carried off the 9 close to the ruck, Shannon Frizzell (basically the Tongan version of Reuben Thorne), who are the all these overseas players that Razor can't select? A broken down Sam Cane? 34 year old TJ Perenara? We know he and his Crusaders mates hate Blues players so none of them are gonna get picked from overseas, they barely get picked playing at home!
So please, for the people who are saying that Razor is getting restricted from picking overseas players, who are they apart from Mo'unga and Frizell?
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
Yeah this stuff about Razor not being able to select players, apart from the best 10 the game has ever seen Richie Mo'unga and a role player who made his tackles, cleaned rucks and carried off the 9 close to the ruck, Shannon Frizzell (basically the Tongan version of Reuben Thorne), who are the all these overseas players that Razor can't select? A broken down Sam Cane? 34 year old TJ Perenara? We know he and his Crusaders mates hate Blues players so none of them are gonna get picked from overseas, they barely get picked playing at home!
So please, for the people who are saying that Razor is getting restricted from picking overseas players, who are they apart from Mo'unga and Frizell?
I don't know, but it is getting worrying when the best attacking AB midfielder scoring tries is 43 and playing for Toulon.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia it hilarious. No one talks about Mo’unga more on this forum than you.
I follow the concept of utu and like to provide balance to Razor, Cantabs and plastic cantabs.
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia it hilarious. No one talks about Mo’unga more on this forum than you.
I follow the concept of utu and like to provide balance to Razor, Cantabs and plastic cantabs.
Just surprised you haven't complimented @ACT-Crusader for turning your name into a verb!
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The papers are saying it is a major problem for the ABs that Vaa'i is replaced by Holland, but I don't know, after the last game, if he is still injured, I kind of prefer this.
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Is it wise for the ABs to be going to Chicago right now?
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Is it wise for the ABs to be going to Chicago right now?
@ExiledHalfback The money calls the tune in professional sport.
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The All Blacks will likely have to stick with a pretty settled team for, at the very least, their next two matches against Ireland and England. There could be a few changes for Scotland and then a few more for Wales, but given how conservative Razor and co have been, that could depend on how those first two matches pan out (given the team Robertson put out against Italy last year).
What does the first-choice team look like now when everyone's fit?
Something along the lines of:
Jordan, Carter, Tupaea, Barrett, Clarke, Barrett, Roigard, Parker, Savea, Vaa'i, Holland, Barrett, Newell, Taylor, De Groot. Reserves: Taukei'aho, Williams, Tosi, Tuipulotu, Sititi, Ratima, Ioane/Fainga'anuku, McKenzie.
Would prefer to see McKenzie at 10 with Love covering from the bench but doubt Razor's thinking has changed regarding the first-choice 10, which means we'll be back to the Barrett show. The loose forwards/locking mix is also up for debate, with the other likely option seeing Vaa'i in the second row with Lakai/Sititi starting in the loosies. Similarly, Williams is probably the best loosehead prop available but he'd offer better value off the bench compared to De Groot and Norris likely doesn't have enough experience to play against Ireland and England.
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Is it wise for the ABs to be going to Chicago right now?
@ExiledHalfback said in All Blacks 2025:
Is it wise for the ABs to be going to Chicago right now?
Might arrive a bit early for kick off I guess.
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The All Blacks will likely have to stick with a pretty settled team for, at the very least, their next two matches against Ireland and England. There could be a few changes for Scotland and then a few more for Wales, but given how conservative Razor and co have been, that could depend on how those first two matches pan out (given the team Robertson put out against Italy last year).
What does the first-choice team look like now when everyone's fit?
Something along the lines of:
Jordan, Carter, Tupaea, Barrett, Clarke, Barrett, Roigard, Parker, Savea, Vaa'i, Holland, Barrett, Newell, Taylor, De Groot. Reserves: Taukei'aho, Williams, Tosi, Tuipulotu, Sititi, Ratima, Ioane/Fainga'anuku, McKenzie.
Would prefer to see McKenzie at 10 with Love covering from the bench but doubt Razor's thinking has changed regarding the first-choice 10, which means we'll be back to the Barrett show. The loose forwards/locking mix is also up for debate, with the other likely option seeing Vaa'i in the second row with Lakai/Sititi starting in the loosies. Similarly, Williams is probably the best loosehead prop available but he'd offer better value off the bench compared to De Groot and Norris likely doesn't have enough experience to play against Ireland and England.
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks 2025:
The All Blacks will likely have to stick with a pretty settled team for, at the very least, their next two matches against Ireland and England. There could be a few changes for Scotland and then a few more for Wales, but given how conservative Razor and co have been, that could depend on how those first two matches pan out (given the team Robertson put out against Italy last year).
What does the first-choice team look like now when everyone's fit?
Something along the lines of:
Jordan, Carter, Tupaea, Barrett, Clarke, Barrett, Roigard, Parker, Savea, Vaa'i, Holland, Barrett, Newell, Taylor, De Groot. Reserves: Taukei'aho, Williams, Tosi, Tuipulotu, Sititi, Ratima, Ioane/Fainga'anuku, McKenzie.
Would prefer to see McKenzie at 10 with Love covering from the bench but doubt Razor's thinking has changed regarding the first-choice 10, which means we'll be back to the Barrett show. The loose forwards/locking mix is also up for debate, with the other likely option seeing Vaa'i in the second row with Lakai/Sititi starting in the loosies. Similarly, Williams is probably the best loosehead prop available but he'd offer better value off the bench compared to De Groot and Norris likely doesn't have enough experience to play against Ireland and England.
Did Lakai do well enough to deserve consideration for more involvement? Just based on one watch it seemed like he carried pretty hard and had some post contact metres.
Yesterday's match was Williams best since returning from injury imo - seems like he is more comfortable as a starter than off the bench because it felt like he was out of sorts in that role.
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@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks 2025:
The All Blacks will likely have to stick with a pretty settled team for, at the very least, their next two matches against Ireland and England. There could be a few changes for Scotland and then a few more for Wales, but given how conservative Razor and co have been, that could depend on how those first two matches pan out (given the team Robertson put out against Italy last year).
What does the first-choice team look like now when everyone's fit?
Something along the lines of:
Jordan, Carter, Tupaea, Barrett, Clarke, Barrett, Roigard, Parker, Savea, Vaa'i, Holland, Barrett, Newell, Taylor, De Groot. Reserves: Taukei'aho, Williams, Tosi, Tuipulotu, Sititi, Ratima, Ioane/Fainga'anuku, McKenzie.
Would prefer to see McKenzie at 10 with Love covering from the bench but doubt Razor's thinking has changed regarding the first-choice 10, which means we'll be back to the Barrett show. The loose forwards/locking mix is also up for debate, with the other likely option seeing Vaa'i in the second row with Lakai/Sititi starting in the loosies. Similarly, Williams is probably the best loosehead prop available but he'd offer better value off the bench compared to De Groot and Norris likely doesn't have enough experience to play against Ireland and England.
Did Lakai do well enough to deserve consideration for more involvement? Just based on one watch it seemed like he carried pretty hard and had some post contact metres.
Yesterday's match was Williams best since returning from injury imo - seems like he is more comfortable as a starter than off the bench because it felt like he was out of sorts in that role.
Lakai did alright. He got ragdolled like he was nothing a few times at the breakdown before Skelton went off but that would have happened to any of our other small 8 options in the squad.
I thought he was ok but overall I think his upside is overly optimistic by some. Couldn't honestly say he was better than Lio Willie earlier in the year.
Im unconvinced that any of the 8 options used this year have a higher upside than Sotutu.
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@sparky usually finals weekend for NPC, which is 3 weeks?
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@sparky usually finals weekend for NPC, which is 3 weeks?
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@sparky usually finals weekend for NPC, which is 3 weeks?
The ABs XV is scheduled to be named on 14 October. Normally the ABs are named a day or two prior? Next Sunday or Monday?
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@sparky usually finals weekend for NPC, which is 3 weeks?
The ABs XV is scheduled to be named on 14 October. Normally the ABs are named a day or two prior? Next Sunday or Monday?
@SouthernMann you are more likely correct...I was guessing.
Wonder how many ABs will be released to disrupt the quarters next week?
