All Blacks 2025
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These are circular arguments. Some people rate Ioane, others don't. The only thing that is a fact, was he was not consistent in black, and surely even his biggest supporters can admit this.
For whatever reason it didn't work in black, but to say he wasn't given a good chance isn't true, and to say it would have worked from 2024 onwards is purely hypothetical.
As I point out, outside of a short period from Liam Squire we have not had any degree of consistency out of a blindside flanker since Jerome Kaino. That comes back to the gameplan/our expectations, not who has worn the shirt.
Sotutu is a different case altogether.
@frugby said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
For whatever reason it didn't work in black, but to say he wasn't given a good chance isn't true, and to say it would have worked from 2024 onwards is purely hypothetical.
The point is it would have been nice to find out given we aren't exactly flush with options. The talent was certainly there and like Frizell there were times at test level where it shone - but they chase Frizell and not Akira. Meanwhile we have been left with neither for 2 years.
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@frugby said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
For whatever reason it didn't work in black, but to say he wasn't given a good chance isn't true, and to say it would have worked from 2024 onwards is purely hypothetical.
The point is it would have been nice to find out given we aren't exactly flush with options. The talent was certainly there and like Frizell there were times at test level where it shone - but they chase Frizell and not Akira. Meanwhile we have been left with neither for 2 years.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
For whatever reason it didn't work in black, but to say he wasn't given a good chance isn't true, and to say it would have worked from 2024 onwards is purely hypothetical.
The point is it would have been nice to find out given we aren't exactly flush with options. The talent was certainly there and like Frizell there were times at test level where it shone - but they chase Frizell and not Akira. Meanwhile we have been left with neither for 2 years.
The 2024 Blues forwards played a style that IMHO fitted nicely with test match rugby. Just a waste we didn't harness that with tactics or selections
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Can we have a separate thread for the Akira and Sotutu revisionists? Too hard scrolling through for info on the AB XV
@ARHS said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
Can we have a separate thread for the Akira and Sotutu revisionists? Too hard scrolling through for info on the AB XV
Do the Frizell revisionists get their own as well?
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@ARHS said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
Can we have a separate thread for the Akira and Sotutu revisionists? Too hard scrolling through for info on the AB XV
Do the Frizell revisionists get their own as well?
@Nepia said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
@ARHS said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
Can we have a separate thread for the Akira and Sotutu revisionists? Too hard scrolling through for info on the AB XV
Do the Frizell revisionists get their own as well?
Razor's doing that with Mo'unga too. Bestest ever ten to play the game! The solution to all our woes! Will fix lineouts and porous defence, as well as hitting rucks, smashing people in tackles and, um, something something
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Have the coaches been chasing Frizell?
I know Ryan said he'd have preferred he hadn't left but presumably he was explicitly asked about Frizell. Have there been many examples over the last two years where the coaches have brought Frizell up?
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
For whatever reason it didn't work in black, but to say he wasn't given a good chance isn't true, and to say it would have worked from 2024 onwards is purely hypothetical.
The point is it would have been nice to find out given we aren't exactly flush with options. The talent was certainly there and like Frizell there were times at test level where it shone - but they chase Frizell and not Akira. Meanwhile we have been left with neither for 2 years.
The 2024 Blues forwards played a style that IMHO fitted nicely with test match rugby. Just a waste we didn't harness that with tactics or selections
@canefan said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
For whatever reason it didn't work in black, but to say he wasn't given a good chance isn't true, and to say it would have worked from 2024 onwards is purely hypothetical.
The point is it would have been nice to find out given we aren't exactly flush with options. The talent was certainly there and like Frizell there were times at test level where it shone - but they chase Frizell and not Akira. Meanwhile we have been left with neither for 2 years.
The 2024 Blues forwards played a style that IMHO fitted nicely with test match rugby. Just a waste we didn't harness that with tactics or selections
the last bit of that might be the truest thing here...late hansen, fozzie and now razor have all decided how they wanted to play regardless of the players they had, none have looked at combos that were dominating super and said "damn....i can build something around that"
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@ARHS said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
Can we have a separate thread for the Akira and Sotutu revisionists? Too hard scrolling through for info on the AB XV
Do the Frizell revisionists get their own as well?
@Nepia The only time Frizell gets brought up funnily enough is by people making revisionist arguments about Akira Ioane.
I think you'll struggle to find a post where someone has opened with, "We miss Shannon Frizell" "We should bring back Shannon Frizell"
It's almost as if we don't, and we shouldn't, and we should move on from both players.
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@brodean said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
What I find quite curious is Dalton Papali'i was basically dropped immediately after Leon MacDonald left.
That's not true. Papalii broke his thumb so missed the first test against the Springboks, coinciding with Sam Cane's return. Cane was then shepherded through to 100 tests in the Bledisloe Cup.
Papalii then pulled his hamstring and missed the end of year tour when he otherwise would have been selected.
This year, they are clearly looking from a different skillset from their openside flanker, and I think it is a real stretch to say that the attack coach dictates who we play at openside.
@frugby said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
What I find quite curious is Dalton Papali'i was basically dropped immediately after Leon MacDonald left.
That's not true.
Let me rephrase it then. His non selection coincides with Leon MacDonald leaving.
Whether he would have been selected had Papali'i not broken his thumb is speculative.
The attack coach would influence to the type of openside to play.
If the attack is to specialise is possession based such as the attack the Blues used in 2024 then its preferable to use an openside who is best at retaining possession. Papali'i is better than Savea at retaining possession.
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@Nepia The only time Frizell gets brought up funnily enough is by people making revisionist arguments about Akira Ioane.
I think you'll struggle to find a post where someone has opened with, "We miss Shannon Frizell" "We should bring back Shannon Frizell"
It's almost as if we don't, and we shouldn't, and we should move on from both players.
@frugby said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
@Nepia The only time Frizell gets brought up funnily enough is by people making revisionist arguments about Akira Ioane.
I think you'll struggle to find a post where someone has opened with, "We miss Shannon Frizell" "We should bring back Shannon Frizell"
It's almost as if we don't, and we shouldn't, and we should move on from both players.
Except the chance of Frizell being moved on from is much less than Akira being moved on from. There's been a steady stream of articles since 2023 about his eventual return to NZ. Now, it could be claimed as media hype, but in at least some of the articles they directly quote the coaches fawning over him.
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A quote from Scott Hansen on rugby pass
“We’ve had a good review of the most recent competition around where we can get some learnings, and fundamentally for us, that is about controlling possession.Here is an idea Scott change BB at 10 and you might control possession better.
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Have the coaches been chasing Frizell?
I know Ryan said he'd have preferred he hadn't left but presumably he was explicitly asked about Frizell. Have there been many examples over the last two years where the coaches have brought Frizell up?
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
Have the coaches been chasing Frizell?
I know Ryan said he'd have preferred he hadn't left but presumably he was explicitly asked about Frizell. Have there been many examples over the last two years where the coaches have brought Frizell up?
I'll just leave this here
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A quote from Scott Hansen on rugby pass
“We’ve had a good review of the most recent competition around where we can get some learnings, and fundamentally for us, that is about controlling possession.Here is an idea Scott change BB at 10 and you might control possession better.
@Chris said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
A quote from Scott Hansen on rugby pass
“We’ve had a good review of the most recent competition around where we can get some learnings, and fundamentally for us, that is about controlling possession.Here is an idea Scott change BB at 10 and you might control possession better.
yes. glaringly yes.
however if you are also stuck in the wrong parts of the field. Or you are not going forward. Then just recycling shit possession is asking for even more trouble. slow ball to slow ball will just inevitably result in a penalty.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
@KiwiMurph But, doesn't all that pre-suppose that Akira was going to be a compelling selection?
A week or so before he announced he was off, the Blues went down to Christchurch and lost to the worst Crusaders in living memory. What if they'd shit the bed in the 2024 semi-final as per 2023?
I'm honestly not trying to troll you or anything.
I just don't see the logic.
And I suspect it's because you guys are looking at what his career could have been and I'm looking at what his career was.
I don't think Akira's and Hoskins' contributions in black aren't any worse than some of the guys who have been given extended runs (EB and Frizell come to mind). Coaches play favourites and always have. At the same time, both guys have been passed over by more than one AB coaching group. So perhaps both sides have elements of truth. Obviously we aren't seeing something that the coaches are. Or they are just plain wrong
I'm sorry but in what world has EB had an extended run in black?
The only thing that stopped his run was the fact he's made of glass. Wallace wouldn't have got a look in if Ethan had stayed fit
@canefan said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
@KiwiMurph But, doesn't all that pre-suppose that Akira was going to be a compelling selection?
A week or so before he announced he was off, the Blues went down to Christchurch and lost to the worst Crusaders in living memory. What if they'd shit the bed in the 2024 semi-final as per 2023?
I'm honestly not trying to troll you or anything.
I just don't see the logic.
And I suspect it's because you guys are looking at what his career could have been and I'm looking at what his career was.
I don't think Akira's and Hoskins' contributions in black aren't any worse than some of the guys who have been given extended runs (EB and Frizell come to mind). Coaches play favourites and always have. At the same time, both guys have been passed over by more than one AB coaching group. So perhaps both sides have elements of truth. Obviously we aren't seeing something that the coaches are. Or they are just plain wrong
I'm sorry but in what world has EB had an extended run in black?
The only thing that stopped his run was the fact he's made of glass. Wallace wouldn't have got a look in if Ethan had stayed fit
So, he didn't have an extended run then?
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@Nepia said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
@ARHS said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
Can we have a separate thread for the Akira and Sotutu revisionists? Too hard scrolling through for info on the AB XV
Do the Frizell revisionists get their own as well?
Razor's doing that with Mo'unga too. Bestest ever ten to play the game! The solution to all our woes! Will fix lineouts and porous defence, as well as hitting rucks, smashing people in tackles and, um, something something
@nzzp said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
@ARHS said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
Can we have a separate thread for the Akira and Sotutu revisionists? Too hard scrolling through for info on the AB XV
Do the Frizell revisionists get their own as well?
Razor's doing that with Mo'unga too. Bestest ever ten to play the game! The solution to all our woes! Will fix lineouts and porous defence, as well as hitting rucks, smashing people in tackles and, um, something something
This place is going to light up like Chernobyl if RM comes back a shadow of RM 23. For the sake of our chances at RWC27 I hope he comes back at least that good
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A quote from Scott Hansen on rugby pass
“We’ve had a good review of the most recent competition around where we can get some learnings, and fundamentally for us, that is about controlling possession.Here is an idea Scott change BB at 10 and you might control possession better.
@Chris said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
A quote from Scott Hansen on rugby pass
“We’ve had a good review of the most recent competition around where we can get some learnings, and fundamentally for us, that is about controlling possession.Here is an idea Scott change BB at 10 and you might control possession better.
A coach entrusted with development of a Test strategy who uses the word "learnings" is literally too fucking stupid to be employed in the office.
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The revisionism on here is crazy... the arguments around Sotutu last year - totally fair and reasonable. But these claims around Akira Ioane are nonsensical. In his time in New Zealand, we had three different coaches, and none of them took a true liking to him.
Blaming Jase Ryan is just a lazy excuse. Akira got a good run, and played some decent footy in black between 20-22. Him losing his spot to Frizzell was a timing thing. Frizzell played the game of his life in the test which saved Foster's job, and largely backed that up (scored two tries in the RWC SF which is conveniently forgotten), and dominated the Boks at Mt Smart, so deservedly kept the shirt. Him being anonymous in the World Cup doesn't change that.
Ioane drifted from view because Finau had a superb 2023 Super campaign, and looked like our next star (like Fifita, Frizzell and Ioane before him). We only took one blindside to the World Cup and that was Frizzell. Scott Barrett was the backup 6.
If Akira was undeniable, he'd have been retained - but he wasn't. He was just another inconsistent blindside in a long line since Kaino - and there is nothing to suggest that his Super Rugby form would have all of a sudden translated to test rugby.
He played 21 tests in three years, Frizzell 33 in five years. It is a very similar ratio (half the tests in a year) because they were both inconsistent and neither could nail the shirt - just as is happening now with Samipeni Finau, and dare I say it, Simon Parker might go the same way.
It begs the question, are we asking too much of our blindside flanker?
@frugby said in All Blacks & All Blacks XV EOYT Squads 2025:
The revisionism on here is crazy... the arguments around Sotutu last year - totally fair and reasonable. But these claims around Akira Ioane are nonsensical. In his time in New Zealand, we had three different coaches, and none of them took a true liking to him.
Blaming Jase Ryan is just a lazy excuse. Akira got a good run, and played some decent footy in black between 20-22. Him losing his spot to Frizzell was a timing thing. Frizzell played the game of his life in the test which saved Foster's job, and largely backed that up (scored two tries in the RWC SF which is conveniently forgotten), and dominated the Boks at Mt Smart, so deservedly kept the shirt. Him being anonymous in the World Cup doesn't change that.
Ioane drifted from view because Finau had a superb 2023 Super campaign, and looked like our next star (like Fifita, Frizzell and Ioane before him). We only took one blindside to the World Cup and that was Frizzell. Scott Barrett was the backup 6.
If Akira was undeniable, he'd have been retained - but he wasn't. He was just another inconsistent blindside in a long line since Kaino - and there is nothing to suggest that his Super Rugby form would have all of a sudden translated to test rugby.
He played 21 tests in three years, Frizzell 33 in five years. It is a very similar ratio (half the tests in a year) because they were both inconsistent and neither could nail the shirt - just as is happening now with Samipeni Finau, and dare I say it, Simon Parker might go the same way.
It begs the question, are we asking too much of our blindside flanker?
You are conflating Frizell's timeline with Ioanes.
When Frizell came back midway through 2022 he had played roughly the same amount of tests as Akira did his entire career.
Around the 20 to 40 mark is when players start to play their best rugby. Through to around 60 or 70 tests. At that point some players drop off in quality and minority continue to play test level rugby.
Around the 20 to 30 mark is when players blossom. As a coach you invest in them and then you begin to see the fruits from 30+ tests
This is the case with Mo'unga, Frizell, Tuipulotu, Jordie Barrett, Maa Nonu, Conrad Smith etc.
Some players come on the scene and thrive right away but this is rare now.
I believe Foster actually liked Ioane because he was pretty cut about not getting to talk to Ioane and Sotutu. You blame Foster but I believe it was Ryan's influence by that stage.
As for Finau he dropped off in 2024 while Ioane arguably had the best season of his career. Ioane's game was well rounded.
Papali'i has played close to 40 tests now and they should be maximising that investment but instead they're squandering it.
He has won 91.6% of the RC tests hes played in over the Foster/Razor era. Only Savea has played more RC games as a loose forward from the guys in the ABs and ABs XV squad. Razors win rate is 58% in RC games.
Most of the loose forwards are around a 60% win rate. Papali'i has won 67% of RWC knock out games hes played in. He has invaluable experience.
The guys that are being selected are failing at RC level at a historical precedent. Never before have ABs won less games in the RC than the last two years.
The only loose forward in the current ABs squad to win a Super title is Savea. Finau and Jacobson have won RC. Jacobson u20 title. The rest of the guys do not have any winning pedigree. They did not win u20. They did not win Super Rugby. They did not win RC.
Ultimately the All Blacks is a team of players who know how to win and with the current players we dont have that.
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A quote from Scott Hansen on rugby pass
“We’ve had a good review of the most recent competition around where we can get some learnings, and fundamentally for us, that is about controlling possession.Here is an idea Scott change BB at 10 and you might control possession better.
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
A quote from Scott Hansen on rugby pass
“We’ve had a good review of the most recent competition around where we can get some learnings, and fundamentally for us, that is about controlling possession.Here is an idea Scott change BB at 10 and you might control possession better.
That quote makes it sound like it was a lot of hard work to find areas where they can improve. Combing through footage, searching out the smallest of moments in which things weren't perfect. And they haven't found much at all. Imagine what that record loss to South Africa would have been like if the team wasn't performing to such high standards.
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A quote from Scott Hansen on rugby pass
“We’ve had a good review of the most recent competition around where we can get some learnings, and fundamentally for us, that is about controlling possession.Here is an idea Scott change BB at 10 and you might control possession better.
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
A quote from Scott Hansen on rugby pass
“We’ve had a good review of the most recent competition around where we can get some learnings, and fundamentally for us, that is about controlling possession.Here is an idea Scott change BB at 10 and you might control possession better.
Sack this clown as soon as possible please.
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A quote from Scott Hansen on rugby pass
“We’ve had a good review of the most recent competition around where we can get some learnings, and fundamentally for us, that is about controlling possession.Here is an idea Scott change BB at 10 and you might control possession better.
@Chris sounds like they are looking for those 1% changes to help a team at the top of thier game, when we arent and there are some glaring massive issues that would have a much swifter and positive impact on the game.
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@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
A quote from Scott Hansen on rugby pass
“We’ve had a good review of the most recent competition around where we can get some learnings, and fundamentally for us, that is about controlling possession.Here is an idea Scott change BB at 10 and you might control possession better.
Sack this clown as soon as possible please.
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
A quote from Scott Hansen on rugby pass
“We’ve had a good review of the most recent competition around where we can get some learnings, and fundamentally for us, that is about controlling possession.Here is an idea Scott change BB at 10 and you might control possession better.
Sack this clown as soon as possible please.
Which one?
