All Blacks 2025
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
So post 2015 we have had a succession of coaches that don't appear to be able to get the best out of a bunch of pretty good players. Is that a failure to relate, is it fault on the part of the players, or more likely a bunch of factors that made these guys leave?
Its a coaching/management failure. Every one of these guys could have been world class just by giving them test matches, experience and managing them better.
Victor Vito
Steve Luatua
Liam Squire
Vaea Fifita
Akira IoaneI do't think being given lack of chances applied to them all. Luatua, Fifita, and Akira yep, they could have had more. But:
Vito got lots of chances, he was just up against Kaino for the main spot, and Messam for the back up (who had a purple patch of form when Kaino was out for a bit). But in spite of that he had a good AB career. and won two RWC's.
Squire was injured then had his mental health issues which meant he couldn't really nail down the spot.
For Vito he was 28 when he left and had 30 odd tests under his belt. He was ready kick on after his apprenticeship and they should have nailed him down
Regarding Squire, speculation, but could he have been managed better so that his mental health issues didn't spiral out of control?
The way Hansen managed Akira Ioane publicly caused Ioane to have his own brief mental health challenges and his weight spiraled. So I suspect that along with the way he treated Luatua that Squire was not getting the support he needed - a management failure. There needs to be systems and support in place for players to cope with injuries etc.
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
For Vito he was 28 when he left and had 30 odd tests under his belt. He was ready kick on after his apprenticeship and they should have nailed him down
Yeah I was so annoyed at the time, he was in his prime and we let him go. He was playing superior rugby to Read at the time and we kept the wrong guy with Read on his way down.
Didn't he win the European Player of the Year award in 2019?
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
So post 2015 we have had a succession of coaches that don't appear to be able to get the best out of a bunch of pretty good players. Is that a failure to relate, is it fault on the part of the players, or more likely a bunch of factors that made these guys leave?
Its a coaching/management failure. Every one of these guys could have been world class just by giving them test matches, experience and managing them better.
Victor Vito
Steve Luatua
Liam Squire
Vaea Fifita
Akira IoaneI do't think being given lack of chances applied to them all. Luatua, Fifita, and Akira yep, they could have had more. But:
Vito got lots of chances, he was just up against Kaino for the main spot, and Messam for the back up (who had a purple patch of form when Kaino was out for a bit). But in spite of that he had a good AB career. and won two RWC's.
Squire was injured then had his mental health issues which meant he couldn't really nail down the spot.
For Vito he was 28 when he left and had 30 odd tests under his belt. He was ready kick on after his apprenticeship and they should have nailed him down
Regarding Squire, speculation, but could he have been managed better so that his mental health issues didn't spiral out of control?
The way Hansen managed Akira Ioane publicly caused Ioane to have his own brief mental health challenges and his weight spiraled. So I suspect that along with the way he treated Luatua that Squire was not getting the support he needed - a management failure. There needs to be systems and support in place for players to cope with injuries etc.
Fifita was better with the ball in hand than any of them but for some reason was shunted into lock for the Canes. Probably so Brad Shields could rack up more games before going to play for England.
Publicly saying he didn’t like playing lock did him absolutely no favours either.
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
So post 2015 we have had a succession of coaches that don't appear to be able to get the best out of a bunch of pretty good players. Is that a failure to relate, is it fault on the part of the players, or more likely a bunch of factors that made these guys leave?
Its a coaching/management failure. Every one of these guys could have been world class just by giving them test matches, experience and managing them better.
Victor Vito
Steve Luatua
Liam Squire
Vaea Fifita
Akira IoaneI do't think being given lack of chances applied to them all. Luatua, Fifita, and Akira yep, they could have had more. But:
Vito got lots of chances, he was just up against Kaino for the main spot, and Messam for the back up (who had a purple patch of form when Kaino was out for a bit). But in spite of that he had a good AB career. and won two RWC's.
Squire was injured then had his mental health issues which meant he couldn't really nail down the spot.
For Vito he was 28 when he left and had 30 odd tests under his belt. He was ready kick on after his apprenticeship and they should have nailed him down
Regarding Squire, speculation, but could he have been managed better so that his mental health issues didn't spiral out of control?
The way Hansen managed Akira Ioane publicly caused Ioane to have his own brief mental health challenges and his weight spiraled. So I suspect that along with the way he treated Luatua that Squire was not getting the support he needed - a management failure. There needs to be systems and support in place for players to cope with injuries etc.
Fifita was better with the ball in hand than any of them but for some reason was shunted into lock for the Canes. Probably so Brad Shields could rack up more games before going to play for England.
Publicly saying he didn’t like playing lock did him absolutely no favours either.
Yeah that was Plumtree's fault wasn't it. I'm not sure why saying publicly that you don't want to play lock is so bad.
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Vito went to France for the money. He had won a SR title and been part of two RWC-winning teams so probably thought it was time to cash in.
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2025:
Vito went to France for the money. He had won a SR title and been part of two RWC-winning teams so probably thought it was time to cash in.
And it was big money from what is known. And all glory to him.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
For Vito he was 28 when he left and had 30 odd tests under his belt. He was ready kick on after his apprenticeship and they should have nailed him down
Yeah I was so annoyed at the time, he was in his prime and we let him go. He was playing superior rugby to Read at the time and we kept the wrong guy with Read on his way down.
Didn't he win the European Player of the Year award in 2019?
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
For Vito he was 28 when he left and had 30 odd tests under his belt. He was ready kick on after his apprenticeship and they should have nailed him down
Yeah I was so annoyed at the time, he was in his prime and we let him go. He was playing superior rugby to Read at the time and we kept the wrong guy with Read on his way down.
Didn't he win the European Player of the Year award in 2019?
Read was close to our best forward in 2015. The slide came after 2017.
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
For Vito he was 28 when he left and had 30 odd tests under his belt. He was ready kick on after his apprenticeship and they should have nailed him down
Yeah I was so annoyed at the time, he was in his prime and we let him go. He was playing superior rugby to Read at the time and we kept the wrong guy with Read on his way down.
Didn't he win the European Player of the Year award in 2019?
Read was close to our best forward in 2015. The slide came after 2017.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
For Vito he was 28 when he left and had 30 odd tests under his belt. He was ready kick on after his apprenticeship and they should have nailed him down
Yeah I was so annoyed at the time, he was in his prime and we let him go. He was playing superior rugby to Read at the time and we kept the wrong guy with Read on his way down.
Didn't he win the European Player of the Year award in 2019?
Read was close to our best forward in 2015. The slide came after 2017.
Hmmm, for some reason I felt he was in decline in 2015. Not saying I don't believe you, my recollection of him was just different.
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no way in 2015 would you have looked at Read not being there, he was a huge point of difference in our pack.
carrying him to 2019 was the mistake.
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no way in 2015 would you have looked at Read not being there, he was a huge point of difference in our pack.
carrying him to 2019 was the mistake.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
no way in 2015 would you have looked at Read not being there, he was a huge point of difference in our pack.
carrying him to 2019 was the mistake.
Easy to say in hindsight. Hansen was never going to drop his captain and I'm not sure that a new coach in 2017 would have done so either
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don't get me wrong, it's a mistake i would have made as well. But he was definitely cooked.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
For Vito he was 28 when he left and had 30 odd tests under his belt. He was ready kick on after his apprenticeship and they should have nailed him down
Yeah I was so annoyed at the time, he was in his prime and we let him go. He was playing superior rugby to Read at the time and we kept the wrong guy with Read on his way down.
Didn't he win the European Player of the Year award in 2019?
Read was close to our best forward in 2015. The slide came after 2017.
Hmmm, for some reason I felt he was in decline in 2015. Not saying I don't believe you, my recollection of him was just different.
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
For Vito he was 28 when he left and had 30 odd tests under his belt. He was ready kick on after his apprenticeship and they should have nailed him down
Yeah I was so annoyed at the time, he was in his prime and we let him go. He was playing superior rugby to Read at the time and we kept the wrong guy with Read on his way down.
Didn't he win the European Player of the Year award in 2019?
Read was close to our best forward in 2015. The slide came after 2017.
Hmmm, for some reason I felt he was in decline in 2015. Not saying I don't believe you, my recollection of him was just different.
There is truth to what you are saying. His play became inconsistent around this time and it was in part down to the issues he was having as a result of concussions he suffered in 2014.
For some reason a restart always sticks in my head of the Tonga pool match in 2015 which he fails to catch and which the 2012/13 version would have gathered with ease. He was back to his best by the end of the tournament but was definitely not at his best in 2014 and parts of 2015.
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no way in 2015 would you have looked at Read not being there, he was a huge point of difference in our pack.
carrying him to 2019 was the mistake.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
no way in 2015 would you have looked at Read not being there, he was a huge point of difference in our pack.
carrying him to 2019 was the mistake.
At least the current selectors have learnt their lessons and there are no players past their use by date in the squad.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
no way in 2015 would you have looked at Read not being there, he was a huge point of difference in our pack.
carrying him to 2019 was the mistake.
At least the current selectors have learnt their lessons and there are no players past their use by date in the squad.
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
no way in 2015 would you have looked at Read not being there, he was a huge point of difference in our pack.
carrying him to 2019 was the mistake.
At least the current selectors have learnt their lessons and there are no players past their use by date in the squad.
Thats funnier than your memes
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
So post 2015 we have had a succession of coaches that don't appear to be able to get the best out of a bunch of pretty good players. Is that a failure to relate, is it fault on the part of the players, or more likely a bunch of factors that made these guys leave?
Its a coaching/management failure. Every one of these guys could have been world class just by giving them test matches, experience and managing them better.
Victor Vito
Steve Luatua
Liam Squire
Vaea Fifita
Akira IoaneI do't think being given lack of chances applied to them all. Luatua, Fifita, and Akira yep, they could have had more. But:
Vito got lots of chances, he was just up against Kaino for the main spot, and Messam for the back up (who had a purple patch of form when Kaino was out for a bit). But in spite of that he had a good AB career. and won two RWC's.
Squire was injured then had his mental health issues which meant he couldn't really nail down the spot.
For Vito he was 28 when he left and had 30 odd tests under his belt. He was ready kick on after his apprenticeship and they should have nailed him down
Regarding Squire, speculation, but could he have been managed better so that his mental health issues didn't spiral out of control?
The way Hansen managed Akira Ioane publicly caused Ioane to have his own brief mental health challenges and his weight spiraled. So I suspect that along with the way he treated Luatua that Squire was not getting the support he needed - a management failure. There needs to be systems and support in place for players to cope with injuries etc.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
no way in 2015 would you have looked at Read not being there, he was a huge point of difference in our pack.
carrying him to 2019 was the mistake.
At least the current selectors have learnt their lessons and there are no players past their use by date in the squad.
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
no way in 2015 would you have looked at Read not being there, he was a huge point of difference in our pack.
carrying him to 2019 was the mistake.
At least the current selectors have learnt their lessons and there are no players past their use by date in the squad.
...or coaches eh
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
no way in 2015 would you have looked at Read not being there, he was a huge point of difference in our pack.
carrying him to 2019 was the mistake.
Easy to say in hindsight. Hansen was never going to drop his captain and I'm not sure that a new coach in 2017 would have done so either
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
no way in 2015 would you have looked at Read not being there, he was a huge point of difference in our pack.
carrying him to 2019 was the mistake.
Easy to say in hindsight. Hansen was never going to drop his captain and I'm not sure that a new coach in 2017 would have done so either
The signs were definitely there that he was cooked though. It's not like he suddenly just hit a wall at RWC 19
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@brodean What Squire went through was nothing to do with the coaches, and is not for a forum like this.
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean What Squire went through was nothing to do with the coaches, and is not for a forum like this.
Yeah, best not to be shared around with what he was going through.
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
For Vito he was 28 when he left and had 30 odd tests under his belt. He was ready kick on after his apprenticeship and they should have nailed him down
Yeah I was so annoyed at the time, he was in his prime and we let him go. He was playing superior rugby to Read at the time and we kept the wrong guy with Read on his way down.
Didn't he win the European Player of the Year award in 2019?
Read was close to our best forward in 2015. The slide came after 2017.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
For Vito he was 28 when he left and had 30 odd tests under his belt. He was ready kick on after his apprenticeship and they should have nailed him down
Yeah I was so annoyed at the time, he was in his prime and we let him go. He was playing superior rugby to Read at the time and we kept the wrong guy with Read on his way down.
Didn't he win the European Player of the Year award in 2019?
Read was close to our best forward in 2015. The slide came after 2017.
Im talking about the end of 2016.
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Pledger shouldnt be held back. He is ready. When you know you know.
Should be with the ABXV, or with Allblacks as an apprentice.
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no way in 2015 would you have looked at Read not being there, he was a huge point of difference in our pack.
carrying him to 2019 was the mistake.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
no way in 2015 would you have looked at Read not being there, he was a huge point of difference in our pack.
carrying him to 2019 was the mistake.
Was it? Even though past his best who would've replaced him?
