All Blacks 2025
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@Chris-B I think that's my frustration. Both of those lads could have gone to another level with the right coaching and investment.
God knows what happened in Dunedin but putting him outside the top 50 players in the country is some grudge.
Ironically, I expected Razor's superpower to be man management, but I am not seeing a lot of that play out at the moment.
Hansen lost Piutau and Luatua overseas - both who would have plugged big holes in our 2019 squad. How people feel is really important to get them to stay and perform at the top level.
Also, the ABs does not feel like an elite performance environment at the moment. No one is writing books on how good BB is at the ten jersey - we have slipped from leading the way with professionalism to being old fashioned also rans. It's very frustrating.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
Piutau and Luatua
A couple of names damned to obscurity. Might have made some money I suppose, but gave up potential greatness.
@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
gave up potential greatness
Piutau got offered a big fat contract (biggest in the history of the league I think, when English rugby was flush). I can understand it.
Luatua went saying the selectors didn't talk to him - and Hansen threw his toys. He should have been our blindside for at least a world cup cycle - was some player.
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
gave up potential greatness
Piutau got offered a big fat contract (biggest in the history of the league I think, when English rugby was flush). I can understand it.
Luatua went saying the selectors didn't talk to him - and Hansen threw his toys. He should have been our blindside for at least a world cup cycle - was some player.
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
gave up potential greatness
Piutau got offered a big fat contract (biggest in the history of the league I think, when English rugby was flush). I can understand it.
Luatua went saying the selectors didn't talk to him - and Hansen threw his toys. He should have been our blindside for at least a world cup cycle - was some player.
And when you realise how much the money helped Piutau and his family in general, you'll also understand it. It comes across as greed, but it's far from it.
Yeah, Hansen didn't need to treat Luatua like he did throughout his tenure. He didn't need to publicly humiliate him over his fitness in 2014, and as you said, his communication towards him was poor, and then sure enough, he has a big cry when he leaves.
Some of Hansen's dealings with players post RWC 2015, hmmm..........
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
gave up potential greatness
Piutau got offered a big fat contract (biggest in the history of the league I think, when English rugby was flush). I can understand it.
Luatua went saying the selectors didn't talk to him - and Hansen threw his toys. He should have been our blindside for at least a world cup cycle - was some player.
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
gave up potential greatness
Piutau got offered a big fat contract (biggest in the history of the league I think, when English rugby was flush). I can understand it.
Luatua went saying the selectors didn't talk to him - and Hansen threw his toys. He should have been our blindside for at least a world cup cycle - was some player.
Vito could have stayed longer too in my opinion.
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
@nonpartizan said in All Blacks 2025:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2025:
Media stirring the pot? If not, fuck Mounga for that shitty attitude.
NZ Rugby's decision means Robertson must ignore Mo'unga when he picks his squad for the All Blacks' "Rugby's Greatest Rivalry'' tour of South Africa.
Mo'unga is understood to be underwhelmed at the prospect of playing in front of small crowds in the NPC while the All Blacks tour the Republic, but unless the NZ Rugby board switches its stance he will be tethered to Canterbury.That would be pretty unfair on the players who have been playing Super and NPC and have been committed to the ABs and have made the team on form.
He is back to give us a better chance at winning the RWC.
He is Robertsons man and has been chasing him since he left.
We only have a small window before the RWC so get him in at the earliest opportunity.
This is pro sport and it is meant to be a hugh performance environment. Fuck fair. Embrace excellence (not seen much of that addmittedly)
If he makes the team on form I agree. But I'm concerned that Razor is a sentimental selector and goes too much off of past exploits and vibes.
@nonpartizan said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
@nonpartizan said in All Blacks 2025:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2025:
Media stirring the pot? If not, fuck Mounga for that shitty attitude.
NZ Rugby's decision means Robertson must ignore Mo'unga when he picks his squad for the All Blacks' "Rugby's Greatest Rivalry'' tour of South Africa.
Mo'unga is understood to be underwhelmed at the prospect of playing in front of small crowds in the NPC while the All Blacks tour the Republic, but unless the NZ Rugby board switches its stance he will be tethered to Canterbury.That would be pretty unfair on the players who have been playing Super and NPC and have been committed to the ABs and have made the team on form.
He is back to give us a better chance at winning the RWC.
He is Robertsons man and has been chasing him since he left.
We only have a small window before the RWC so get him in at the earliest opportunity.
This is pro sport and it is meant to be a hugh performance environment. Fuck fair. Embrace excellence (not seen much of that addmittedly)
If he makes the team on form I agree. But I'm concerned that Razor is a sentimental selector and goes too much off of past exploits and vibes.
My youngest son has a teen for a coach and he's a vibe coach too.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
gave up potential greatness
Piutau got offered a big fat contract (biggest in the history of the league I think, when English rugby was flush). I can understand it.
Luatua went saying the selectors didn't talk to him - and Hansen threw his toys. He should have been our blindside for at least a world cup cycle - was some player.
Vito could have stayed longer too in my opinion.
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
gave up potential greatness
Piutau got offered a big fat contract (biggest in the history of the league I think, when English rugby was flush). I can understand it.
Luatua went saying the selectors didn't talk to him - and Hansen threw his toys. He should have been our blindside for at least a world cup cycle - was some player.
Vito could have stayed longer too in my opinion.
Amazing athlete, possibly lacked a bit of a mean streak though ?
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@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
gave up potential greatness
Piutau got offered a big fat contract (biggest in the history of the league I think, when English rugby was flush). I can understand it.
Luatua went saying the selectors didn't talk to him - and Hansen threw his toys. He should have been our blindside for at least a world cup cycle - was some player.
Vito could have stayed longer too in my opinion.
Amazing athlete, possibly lacked a bit of a mean streak though ?
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
gave up potential greatness
Piutau got offered a big fat contract (biggest in the history of the league I think, when English rugby was flush). I can understand it.
Luatua went saying the selectors didn't talk to him - and Hansen threw his toys. He should have been our blindside for at least a world cup cycle - was some player.
Vito could have stayed longer too in my opinion.
Amazing athlete, possibly lacked a bit of a mean streak though ?
fits our 6 needs better though I suspect. And a ball carrier.
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@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
gave up potential greatness
Piutau got offered a big fat contract (biggest in the history of the league I think, when English rugby was flush). I can understand it.
Luatua went saying the selectors didn't talk to him - and Hansen threw his toys. He should have been our blindside for at least a world cup cycle - was some player.
Vito could have stayed longer too in my opinion.
Amazing athlete, possibly lacked a bit of a mean streak though ?
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
gave up potential greatness
Piutau got offered a big fat contract (biggest in the history of the league I think, when English rugby was flush). I can understand it.
Luatua went saying the selectors didn't talk to him - and Hansen threw his toys. He should have been our blindside for at least a world cup cycle - was some player.
Vito could have stayed longer too in my opinion.
Amazing athlete, possibly lacked a bit of a mean streak though ?
Played lovely stuff in France after he left.
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So post 2015 we have had a succession of coaches that don't appear to be able to get the best out of a bunch of pretty good players. Is that a failure to relate, is it fault on the part of the players, or more likely a bunch of factors that made these guys leave?
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
gave up potential greatness
Piutau got offered a big fat contract (biggest in the history of the league I think, when English rugby was flush). I can understand it.
Luatua went saying the selectors didn't talk to him - and Hansen threw his toys. He should have been our blindside for at least a world cup cycle - was some player.
Vito could have stayed longer too in my opinion.
Amazing athlete, possibly lacked a bit of a mean streak though ?
fits our 6 needs better though I suspect. And a ball carrier.
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
gave up potential greatness
Piutau got offered a big fat contract (biggest in the history of the league I think, when English rugby was flush). I can understand it.
Luatua went saying the selectors didn't talk to him - and Hansen threw his toys. He should have been our blindside for at least a world cup cycle - was some player.
Vito could have stayed longer too in my opinion.
Amazing athlete, possibly lacked a bit of a mean streak though ?
fits our 6 needs better though I suspect. And a ball carrier.
Vito was also a top lineout jumper. He used to be the main target at the Canes for a number of years.
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So post 2015 we have had a succession of coaches that don't appear to be able to get the best out of a bunch of pretty good players. Is that a failure to relate, is it fault on the part of the players, or more likely a bunch of factors that made these guys leave?
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
So post 2015 we have had a succession of coaches that don't appear to be able to get the best out of a bunch of pretty good players. Is that a failure to relate, is it fault on the part of the players, or more likely a bunch of factors that made these guys leave?
Its a coaching/management failure. Every one of these guys could have been world class just by giving them test matches, experience and managing them better.
Victor Vito
Steve Luatua
Liam Squire
Vaea Fifita
Akira Ioane -
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
So post 2015 we have had a succession of coaches that don't appear to be able to get the best out of a bunch of pretty good players. Is that a failure to relate, is it fault on the part of the players, or more likely a bunch of factors that made these guys leave?
Its a coaching/management failure. Every one of these guys could have been world class just by giving them test matches, experience and managing them better.
Victor Vito
Steve Luatua
Liam Squire
Vaea Fifita
Akira Ioane@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
So post 2015 we have had a succession of coaches that don't appear to be able to get the best out of a bunch of pretty good players. Is that a failure to relate, is it fault on the part of the players, or more likely a bunch of factors that made these guys leave?
Its a coaching/management failure. Every one of these guys could have been world class just by giving them test matches, experience and managing them better.
Victor Vito
Steve Luatua
Liam Squire
Vaea Fifita
Akira IoaneIf you look at the current squad I'd say only Finau at 26 has similar physical talents to these guys. Maybe Parker too.
That's why Finau should be persevered with. Just stick with him. He's only played 1 easier test against Japan but we have won 83.3% of tests that he has played in. We've only won 60% of tests Parker has played in.
Finau is not costing us tests. His contributions have been underrated. Continuing to play him is low risk if we win when he plays but the upside of his development is more than any other 6 option we have in the country at the moment. Maybe Wrampling-Alec has potential but he needs some solid Super experience. Howden loses a lot of ball. Haig and Stoddart need some wins under their belt. Flanders is better suited to 8.
Finau's half way to 20 to 30 tests. After that we can probably get some top games out of him - he has the potential to be world class at that stage. Just keep developing him.
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
So post 2015 we have had a succession of coaches that don't appear to be able to get the best out of a bunch of pretty good players. Is that a failure to relate, is it fault on the part of the players, or more likely a bunch of factors that made these guys leave?
Its a coaching/management failure. Every one of these guys could have been world class just by giving them test matches, experience and managing them better.
Victor Vito
Steve Luatua
Liam Squire
Vaea Fifita
Akira Ioane@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
So post 2015 we have had a succession of coaches that don't appear to be able to get the best out of a bunch of pretty good players. Is that a failure to relate, is it fault on the part of the players, or more likely a bunch of factors that made these guys leave?
Its a coaching/management failure. Every one of these guys could have been world class just by giving them test matches, experience and managing them better.
Victor Vito
Steve Luatua
Liam Squire
Vaea Fifita
Akira IoaneI do't think being given lack of chances applied to them all. Luatua, Fifita, and Akira yep, they could have had more. But:
Vito got lots of chances, he was just up against Kaino for the main spot, and Messam for the back up (who had a purple patch of form when Kaino was out for a bit). But in spite of that he had a good AB career. and won two RWC's.
Squire was injured then had his mental health issues which meant he couldn't really nail down the spot.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
So post 2015 we have had a succession of coaches that don't appear to be able to get the best out of a bunch of pretty good players. Is that a failure to relate, is it fault on the part of the players, or more likely a bunch of factors that made these guys leave?
Its a coaching/management failure. Every one of these guys could have been world class just by giving them test matches, experience and managing them better.
Victor Vito
Steve Luatua
Liam Squire
Vaea Fifita
Akira IoaneI do't think being given lack of chances applied to them all. Luatua, Fifita, and Akira yep, they could have had more. But:
Vito got lots of chances, he was just up against Kaino for the main spot, and Messam for the back up (who had a purple patch of form when Kaino was out for a bit). But in spite of that he had a good AB career. and won two RWC's.
Squire was injured then had his mental health issues which meant he couldn't really nail down the spot.
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
So post 2015 we have had a succession of coaches that don't appear to be able to get the best out of a bunch of pretty good players. Is that a failure to relate, is it fault on the part of the players, or more likely a bunch of factors that made these guys leave?
Its a coaching/management failure. Every one of these guys could have been world class just by giving them test matches, experience and managing them better.
Victor Vito
Steve Luatua
Liam Squire
Vaea Fifita
Akira IoaneI do't think being given lack of chances applied to them all. Luatua, Fifita, and Akira yep, they could have had more. But:
Vito got lots of chances, he was just up against Kaino for the main spot, and Messam for the back up (who had a purple patch of form when Kaino was out for a bit). But in spite of that he had a good AB career. and won two RWC's.
Squire was injured then had his mental health issues which meant he couldn't really nail down the spot.
as the bloke who has been calling for him to get the jersey since he was still coming off the bench at the Chiefs, i should agree, but...
i don't think he is fit enough (yet) which limits his repeated involvements that these coaches value above all else. I also think the coaches have deliberately limited his physicality on defense (something i think they have done to everyone) out of fear of cards. If you watch the way he tackles in black compared to in a Chiefs jersey they are miles apart. He also either gets stationed out wide (our pattern) or spends too much time there, which sort of limits why we would pick him.
That said, he's a high quality lineout forward, on both jumping and lifting, his ruck technique is excellent, and he's a big body. I also think his solitary start this year was far better than he was given credit for. I think there is far too much there to ignore, but given what he has been given this year, i think he's closer to missing the squad than getting a start. Which again you could say is a missed opportunity, especially given i don't think Parker has done much.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
So post 2015 we have had a succession of coaches that don't appear to be able to get the best out of a bunch of pretty good players. Is that a failure to relate, is it fault on the part of the players, or more likely a bunch of factors that made these guys leave?
Its a coaching/management failure. Every one of these guys could have been world class just by giving them test matches, experience and managing them better.
Victor Vito
Steve Luatua
Liam Squire
Vaea Fifita
Akira IoaneI do't think being given lack of chances applied to them all. Luatua, Fifita, and Akira yep, they could have had more. But:
Vito got lots of chances, he was just up against Kaino for the main spot, and Messam for the back up (who had a purple patch of form when Kaino was out for a bit). But in spite of that he had a good AB career. and won two RWC's.
Squire was injured then had his mental health issues which meant he couldn't really nail down the spot.
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
So post 2015 we have had a succession of coaches that don't appear to be able to get the best out of a bunch of pretty good players. Is that a failure to relate, is it fault on the part of the players, or more likely a bunch of factors that made these guys leave?
Its a coaching/management failure. Every one of these guys could have been world class just by giving them test matches, experience and managing them better.
Victor Vito
Steve Luatua
Liam Squire
Vaea Fifita
Akira IoaneI do't think being given lack of chances applied to them all. Luatua, Fifita, and Akira yep, they could have had more. But:
Vito got lots of chances, he was just up against Kaino for the main spot, and Messam for the back up (who had a purple patch of form when Kaino was out for a bit). But in spite of that he had a good AB career. and won two RWC's.
Squire was injured then had his mental health issues which meant he couldn't really nail down the spot.
For Vito he was 28 when he left and had 30 odd tests under his belt. He was ready kick on after his apprenticeship and they should have nailed him down
Regarding Squire, speculation, but could he have been managed better so that his mental health issues didn't spiral out of control?
The way Hansen managed Akira Ioane publicly caused Ioane to have his own brief mental health challenges and his weight spiraled. So I suspect that along with the way he treated Luatua that Squire was not getting the support he needed - a management failure. There needs to be systems and support in place for players to cope with injuries etc.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
So post 2015 we have had a succession of coaches that don't appear to be able to get the best out of a bunch of pretty good players. Is that a failure to relate, is it fault on the part of the players, or more likely a bunch of factors that made these guys leave?
Its a coaching/management failure. Every one of these guys could have been world class just by giving them test matches, experience and managing them better.
Victor Vito
Steve Luatua
Liam Squire
Vaea Fifita
Akira IoaneI do't think being given lack of chances applied to them all. Luatua, Fifita, and Akira yep, they could have had more. But:
Vito got lots of chances, he was just up against Kaino for the main spot, and Messam for the back up (who had a purple patch of form when Kaino was out for a bit). But in spite of that he had a good AB career. and won two RWC's.
Squire was injured then had his mental health issues which meant he couldn't really nail down the spot.
For Vito he was 28 when he left and had 30 odd tests under his belt. He was ready kick on after his apprenticeship and they should have nailed him down
Regarding Squire, speculation, but could he have been managed better so that his mental health issues didn't spiral out of control?
The way Hansen managed Akira Ioane publicly caused Ioane to have his own brief mental health challenges and his weight spiraled. So I suspect that along with the way he treated Luatua that Squire was not getting the support he needed - a management failure. There needs to be systems and support in place for players to cope with injuries etc.
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
So post 2015 we have had a succession of coaches that don't appear to be able to get the best out of a bunch of pretty good players. Is that a failure to relate, is it fault on the part of the players, or more likely a bunch of factors that made these guys leave?
Its a coaching/management failure. Every one of these guys could have been world class just by giving them test matches, experience and managing them better.
Victor Vito
Steve Luatua
Liam Squire
Vaea Fifita
Akira IoaneI do't think being given lack of chances applied to them all. Luatua, Fifita, and Akira yep, they could have had more. But:
Vito got lots of chances, he was just up against Kaino for the main spot, and Messam for the back up (who had a purple patch of form when Kaino was out for a bit). But in spite of that he had a good AB career. and won two RWC's.
Squire was injured then had his mental health issues which meant he couldn't really nail down the spot.
For Vito he was 28 when he left and had 30 odd tests under his belt. He was ready kick on after his apprenticeship and they should have nailed him down
Regarding Squire, speculation, but could he have been managed better so that his mental health issues didn't spiral out of control?
The way Hansen managed Akira Ioane publicly caused Ioane to have his own brief mental health challenges and his weight spiraled. So I suspect that along with the way he treated Luatua that Squire was not getting the support he needed - a management failure. There needs to be systems and support in place for players to cope with injuries etc.
I loved Squire...seemed like such a cool dude too...
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I loved the way Liam Squire played.
But he had sooooo many injuries.
Bad ones too, and a really, really bad one even before he made it to pro rugby.I think all that would have broken anyone.
Just thinkin, you couldabeen a great, but known’ your body just aint guna let it happen.
Soooooo annoying. -
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
So post 2015 we have had a succession of coaches that don't appear to be able to get the best out of a bunch of pretty good players. Is that a failure to relate, is it fault on the part of the players, or more likely a bunch of factors that made these guys leave?
Its a coaching/management failure. Every one of these guys could have been world class just by giving them test matches, experience and managing them better.
Victor Vito
Steve Luatua
Liam Squire
Vaea Fifita
Akira IoaneI do't think being given lack of chances applied to them all. Luatua, Fifita, and Akira yep, they could have had more. But:
Vito got lots of chances, he was just up against Kaino for the main spot, and Messam for the back up (who had a purple patch of form when Kaino was out for a bit). But in spite of that he had a good AB career. and won two RWC's.
Squire was injured then had his mental health issues which meant he couldn't really nail down the spot.
For Vito he was 28 when he left and had 30 odd tests under his belt. He was ready kick on after his apprenticeship and they should have nailed him down
Regarding Squire, speculation, but could he have been managed better so that his mental health issues didn't spiral out of control?
The way Hansen managed Akira Ioane publicly caused Ioane to have his own brief mental health challenges and his weight spiraled. So I suspect that along with the way he treated Luatua that Squire was not getting the support he needed - a management failure. There needs to be systems and support in place for players to cope with injuries etc.
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
So post 2015 we have had a succession of coaches that don't appear to be able to get the best out of a bunch of pretty good players. Is that a failure to relate, is it fault on the part of the players, or more likely a bunch of factors that made these guys leave?
Its a coaching/management failure. Every one of these guys could have been world class just by giving them test matches, experience and managing them better.
Victor Vito
Steve Luatua
Liam Squire
Vaea Fifita
Akira IoaneI do't think being given lack of chances applied to them all. Luatua, Fifita, and Akira yep, they could have had more. But:
Vito got lots of chances, he was just up against Kaino for the main spot, and Messam for the back up (who had a purple patch of form when Kaino was out for a bit). But in spite of that he had a good AB career. and won two RWC's.
Squire was injured then had his mental health issues which meant he couldn't really nail down the spot.
For Vito he was 28 when he left and had 30 odd tests under his belt. He was ready kick on after his apprenticeship and they should have nailed him down
Regarding Squire, speculation, but could he have been managed better so that his mental health issues didn't spiral out of control?
The way Hansen managed Akira Ioane publicly caused Ioane to have his own brief mental health challenges and his weight spiraled. So I suspect that along with the way he treated Luatua that Squire was not getting the support he needed - a management failure. There needs to be systems and support in place for players to cope with injuries etc.
Fifita was better with the ball in hand than any of them but for some reason was shunted into lock for the Canes. Probably so Brad Shields could rack up more games before going to play for England.
Publicly saying he didn’t like playing lock did him absolutely no favours either.
