All Blacks 2025
-
Personally I think once you hit 60+ most coaches are past their best. Guys like Gatland and Jones are well past their best.
Coaches who played in the pro era with bigger players are probably more prone to CTE etc too. So it may be younger from this time on when coaches reach their best.
The only other viable options were probably Schmidt and Joseph as head coach. Schmidt seemed to rule himself didn't he?
So it was just Joseph. He's a valid option but at the time Robertson was selected there wasn't really a lot of resistance. In hindsight maybe Robertson wasn't the best pick and he kind of bottled it with his jobs for the boys picks.
That said I do think Robertson would have benefited with someone like Cotter in his team and I do think he would make a better forwards coach and selector than Ryan whos a good tight five coach but an abject failure as a loose forward coach.
-
Personally I think once you hit 60+ most coaches are past their best. Guys like Gatland and Jones are well past their best.
Coaches who played in the pro era with bigger players are probably more prone to CTE etc too. So it may be younger from this time on when coaches reach their best.
The only other viable options were probably Schmidt and Joseph as head coach. Schmidt seemed to rule himself didn't he?
So it was just Joseph. He's a valid option but at the time Robertson was selected there wasn't really a lot of resistance. In hindsight maybe Robertson wasn't the best pick and he kind of bottled it with his jobs for the boys picks.
That said I do think Robertson would have benefited with someone like Cotter in his team and I do think he would make a better forwards coach and selector than Ryan whos a good tight five coach but an abject failure as a loose forward coach.
@brodean Yeah.
And the reality is that at 7/9 this year, Razor's not remotely close to getting sacked. As long as he avoids 0/4 on the EOYT he's pretty much locked in for RWC2027 (he probably is regardless).
So the earliest someone like Dave Rennie is getting the job is a couple of years from now - and he's going to be 67 going to RWC 2031. Can't see it happening.
I reckon late-40s/early-50s is the ideal age.
Who's floating around in that age bracket for 2027 if Razor fails at RWC?
-
Yeah, Razor ain't going anywhere pre 2027 WC.
I'd however, be surprised if he was our coach in 2028 whatever happens at the World Cup.
-
I think you'll find that a lack of applicants may be due to the fact that it was clear to everyone that the job was Razors...
The best example here is Graham Henry.
Passed over for the big job, went overseas. Was successful and not, but when he came back he knew what to do to make us the best in the world.Strangely enough, he was the one (from reports floating around here, at least) who wanted Razor to have some real world experience overseas.
NZRU under Robinson or Ted, hard decision to decide who to trust there.
-
@brodean Yeah.
And the reality is that at 7/9 this year, Razor's not remotely close to getting sacked. As long as he avoids 0/4 on the EOYT he's pretty much locked in for RWC2027 (he probably is regardless).
So the earliest someone like Dave Rennie is getting the job is a couple of years from now - and he's going to be 67 going to RWC 2031. Can't see it happening.
I reckon late-40s/early-50s is the ideal age.
Who's floating around in that age bracket for 2027 if Razor fails at RWC?
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
I reckon late-40s/early-50s is the ideal age.
Who's floating around in that age bracket for 2027 if Razor fails at RWC?
If my maths is right, Mark Hammett will be 55 in July 2027..
Also in your golden period target area is Nick Evans!
Oh and Carlos Spencer! -
no matter how tightly the cantabs circle the wagons and chuck out the win/loss stats, the fact that this is the state of the chat around the national team on the eve of a tour is telling in itself.
FWIW i also don't believe that Razor is in any way in danger of getting the arse before the world cup. This coach and this playing group are locked in for the next two years at least. We just got to hope they pay attention to all the learnings.
-
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
How old was GH when he became AB coach?
Born 1946, appointed, appointed 2003 so 57
Missed out in 99 I think, when he would have been 53
-
no matter how tightly the cantabs circle the wagons and chuck out the win/loss stats, the fact that this is the state of the chat around the national team on the eve of a tour is telling in itself.
FWIW i also don't believe that Razor is in any way in danger of getting the arse before the world cup. This coach and this playing group are locked in for the next two years at least. We just got to hope they pay attention to all the learnings.
100%
I actually think it is the right choice to get rid of assistants if they aren't on the same page. I'm just responding to the Cantab wagon circling because I finally have a slow morning.
The AB job must feel like building a plane while flying it it. To me, right now, it also seems like most of the coaching team are also trying to get their international certifications at the same time. That's not high performance.
By the way @Chris-B I think Henry was 57 when appointed to the top job, so had Razor left in 2019, we'd be perfectly on target for his return in 2023 or 2027.
-
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
How old was GH when he became AB coach?
Born 1946, appointed, appointed 2003 so 57
Missed out in 99 I think, when he would have been 53
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
How old was GH when he became AB coach?
Born 1946, appointed, appointed 2003 so 57
Missed out in 99 I think, when he would have been 53
Thanks. So he had considerable experience by the time he got appointed. And even then it took him two cycles to win Bill
-
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
How old was GH when he became AB coach?
Born 1946, appointed, appointed 2003 so 57
Missed out in 99 I think, when he would have been 53
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
How old was GH when he became AB coach?
Born 1946, appointed, appointed 2003 so 57
Missed out in 99 I think, when he would have been 53
They probably should have given him the job in '99.
Smithy was 42 so pretty youthful.
Mitch was 37 when he got the job and way too young and inexperienced.
I think they actually banned Graham for a while when he jumped on the plane to Wales.
-
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
How old was GH when he became AB coach?
Born 1946, appointed, appointed 2003 so 57
Missed out in 99 I think, when he would have been 53
They probably should have given him the job in '99.
Smithy was 42 so pretty youthful.
Mitch was 37 when he got the job and way too young and inexperienced.
I think they actually banned Graham for a while when he jumped on the plane to Wales.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
I think they actually banned Graham for a while when he jumped on the plane to Wales.
they took away his life carpark at Eden Park! Petty doesn't even begin to describe it
-
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
I reckon late-40s/early-50s is the ideal age.
Who's floating around in that age bracket for 2027 if Razor fails at RWC?
If my maths is right, Mark Hammett will be 55 in July 2027..
Also in your golden period target area is Nick Evans!
Oh and Carlos Spencer!@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
I reckon late-40s/early-50s is the ideal age.
Who's floating around in that age bracket for 2027 if Razor fails at RWC?
If my maths is right, Mark Hammett will be 55 in July 2027..
Also in your golden period target area is Nick Evans!
Oh and Carlos Spencer!Nick Evans appears to be pretty much a Northern Hemisphere version of Razor. Played for Harlequins and appears to have pretty much coached there since he retired.
Wiki says he had a short stint during 2023 Six Nations as attack coach for England.
-
Personally I think once you hit 60+ most coaches are past their best. Guys like Gatland and Jones are well past their best.
Coaches who played in the pro era with bigger players are probably more prone to CTE etc too. So it may be younger from this time on when coaches reach their best.
The only other viable options were probably Schmidt and Joseph as head coach. Schmidt seemed to rule himself didn't he?
So it was just Joseph. He's a valid option but at the time Robertson was selected there wasn't really a lot of resistance. In hindsight maybe Robertson wasn't the best pick and he kind of bottled it with his jobs for the boys picks.
That said I do think Robertson would have benefited with someone like Cotter in his team and I do think he would make a better forwards coach and selector than Ryan whos a good tight five coach but an abject failure as a loose forward coach.
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
Personally I think once you hit 60+ I think most coaches are past their best. Guys like Gatland and Jones are well past their best.
Coaches who played in the pro era with bigger players are probably more prone to CTE etc too. So it may be younger from this time on when coaches reach their best.
The only other viable options were probably Schmidt and Joseph as head coach. Schmidt seemed to rule himself didn't he?
So it was just Joseph. He's a valid option but at the time Robertson was selected there wasn't really a lot of resistance. In hindsight maybe Robertson wasn't the best pick and he kind of bottled it with his jobs for the boys picks.
That said I do think Robertson would have benefited with someone like Cotter in his team and I do think he would make a better forwards coach and selector than Ryan whos a good tight five coach but an abject failure as a loose forward coach.
Is Eddie keen to have a hoon at coaching the ABs ?
-
@Mauss said in All Blacks 2025:
And yes, with hindsight there was, once again, too little attention given to international experience. I’m guessing it will return as a deciding factor in the next coaching selection post-2027, which is good news for guys like Jamie Joseph and Vern Cotter (and perhaps even Schmidt and Rennie, should they be interested).
Well, for a little bit of Devil's advocacy....
For all of the "Woe is us" and "All would be well if only we'd got Joe", the scoreline reads Razor 4 - Schmidt 0. Which is better than Sir Graham managed vs Robbie in his first four tests. And while it can be argued that it's "only Australia", it's an Australia that took a test off the Lions and beat SA in SA.
Record vs Rassie isn't great 1-3, but Rassie's coaching a generational SA team and has had umpteen years to get them where they are - and didn't have the same post-2023 exodus that we did.
3-0 vs Borthwick.
3-1 vs Galthie (you can only beat what's in front of you - but, could've been 4-0).
2-2 vs Contepomi, which is the most annoying.
And we've won the rest vs Fiji, Japan, Ireland and Italy.
Looking at a couple of other coaching options - well you couldn't get more international experience than Gatland, but he came back to Super rugby and totally shat the bed. How could this happen?
This time last year, there were strong calls for Cotter to join the squad - but then he took the reigning Champion Blues to a 7-9 record this year. You've got to ask why his significant international experience didn't help him arrest this debacle?
The ultra-internationally experienced Jamie Joseph led his Highlanders to the bottom of the table.
How did these things happen with all this international experience?
And, the maligned Hansen actually has quite a bit of international experience. As has Ryan - he nearly won a RWC.
And now Razor has too. He's coached 23 tests - and only lost 6 compared to all of the guys above.
The genius Rassie is 36/49 = 73.5%
Razor is 17/23 = 73.9%It's not a fucking disaster!
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@Mauss said in All Blacks 2025:
And yes, with hindsight there was, once again, too little attention given to international experience. I’m guessing it will return as a deciding factor in the next coaching selection post-2027, which is good news for guys like Jamie Joseph and Vern Cotter (and perhaps even Schmidt and Rennie, should they be interested).
Well, for a little bit of Devil's advocacy....
For all of the "Woe is us" and "All would be well if only we'd got Joe", the scoreline reads Razor 4 - Schmidt 0. Which is better than Sir Graham managed vs Robbie in his first four tests. And while it can be argued that it's "only Australia", it's an Australia that took a test off the Lions and beat SA in SA.
Record vs Rassie isn't great 1-3, but Rassie's coaching a generational SA team and has had umpteen years to get them where they are - and didn't have the same post-2023 exodus that we did.
3-0 vs Borthwick.
3-1 vs Galthie (you can only beat what's in front of you - but, could've been 4-0).
2-2 vs Contepomi, which is the most annoying.
And we've won the rest vs Fiji, Japan, Ireland and Italy.
Looking at a couple of other coaching options - well you couldn't get more international experience than Gatland, but he came back to Super rugby and totally shat the bed. How could this happen?
This time last year, there were strong calls for Cotter to join the squad - but then he took the reigning Champion Blues to a 7-9 record this year. You've got to ask why his significant international experience didn't help him arrest this debacle?
The ultra-internationally experienced Jamie Joseph led his Highlanders to the bottom of the table.
How did these things happen with all this international experience?
And, the maligned Hansen actually has quite a bit of international experience. As has Ryan - he nearly won a RWC.
And now Razor has too. He's coached 23 tests - and only lost 6 compared to all of the guys above.
The genius Rassie is 36/49 = 73.5%
Razor is 17/23 = 73.9%It's not a fucking disaster!
Im not into the idea of defending the current coach by way of speculation about how other coaches would be worse.
Robertson is the coach now and while it might not be a ‘fucking disaster’, comparing him to what Schmidt, Cotter, or anyone else might have done is pure guesswork. While his win–loss record is solid-ish, that doesn’t automatically mean everything’s tracking well. The concern isn’t about numbers, it’s about whether the team looks cohesive, improving and confident under his leadership.
It’s easy to say ‘well, the other guys have struggled too,” but that doesn’t change what’s happening with this All Blacks side. Results matter, but so does the direction of travel and people are seeing a team that looks lost. It’s more than fair to expect more than just okay from the head coach of New Zealand.
And when people talk about Robertson’s lack of overseas experience, it’s really his lack of experience anywhere other than Canterbury and the Crusaders. He’s used to coaching the top team, a lot of the time against much weaker opposition, in competitions where the style of play and the formula for winning didn’t need to change much for him.
-
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@Mauss said in All Blacks 2025:
And yes, with hindsight there was, once again, too little attention given to international experience. I’m guessing it will return as a deciding factor in the next coaching selection post-2027, which is good news for guys like Jamie Joseph and Vern Cotter (and perhaps even Schmidt and Rennie, should they be interested).
Well, for a little bit of Devil's advocacy....
For all of the "Woe is us" and "All would be well if only we'd got Joe", the scoreline reads Razor 4 - Schmidt 0. Which is better than Sir Graham managed vs Robbie in his first four tests. And while it can be argued that it's "only Australia", it's an Australia that took a test off the Lions and beat SA in SA.
Record vs Rassie isn't great 1-3, but Rassie's coaching a generational SA team and has had umpteen years to get them where they are - and didn't have the same post-2023 exodus that we did.
3-0 vs Borthwick.
3-1 vs Galthie (you can only beat what's in front of you - but, could've been 4-0).
2-2 vs Contepomi, which is the most annoying.
And we've won the rest vs Fiji, Japan, Ireland and Italy.
Looking at a couple of other coaching options - well you couldn't get more international experience than Gatland, but he came back to Super rugby and totally shat the bed. How could this happen?
This time last year, there were strong calls for Cotter to join the squad - but then he took the reigning Champion Blues to a 7-9 record this year. You've got to ask why his significant international experience didn't help him arrest this debacle?
The ultra-internationally experienced Jamie Joseph led his Highlanders to the bottom of the table.
How did these things happen with all this international experience?
And, the maligned Hansen actually has quite a bit of international experience. As has Ryan - he nearly won a RWC.
And now Razor has too. He's coached 23 tests - and only lost 6 compared to all of the guys above.
The genius Rassie is 36/49 = 73.5%
Razor is 17/23 = 73.9%It's not a fucking disaster!
Im not into the idea of defending the current coach by way of speculation about how other coaches would be worse.
Robertson is the coach now and while it might not be a ‘fucking disaster’, comparing him to what Schmidt, Cotter, or anyone else might have done is pure guesswork. While his win–loss record is solid-ish, that doesn’t automatically mean everything’s tracking well. The concern isn’t about numbers, it’s about whether the team looks cohesive, improving and confident under his leadership.
It’s easy to say ‘well, the other guys have struggled too,” but that doesn’t change what’s happening with this All Blacks side. Results matter, but so does the direction of travel and people are seeing a team that looks lost. It’s more than fair to expect more than just okay from the head coach of New Zealand.
And when people talk about Robertson’s lack of overseas experience, it’s really his lack of experience anywhere other than Canterbury and the Crusaders. He’s used to coaching the top team, a lot of the time against much weaker opposition, in competitions where the style of play and the formula for winning didn’t need to change much for him.
@ShaquilleOatmeal That's not really what I'm arguing about though - I'm arguing that prior international experience isn't the be-all and end-all and pointing out a host of guys with loads of prior international experience who haven't been able arrest slides or are doing no better than Razor.
And there's no shortage of people prepared to say that things would be better under Joe or Jamie, but their records don't get the same scrutiny at Razor's (or Fozzie's).
It's also fairly invalid to compare Hansen's and Henry's records to the current coaches, because there's simply no doubt that most international teams have got significantly better. You don't get a free pass to experiment vs Japan, Fiji, Italy. You blink and they'll tip you over.
e,g, Eddie - who I thought was a busted flush after his latest RWC exploits - gave Joe a very uncomfortable 10 minutes at the end at the weekend. We would not have been happy if that had been an AB B team.
But, yes - there's no doubt we'ré not travelling quite how anyone should be happy with. I've said this on a number of occasions - but, if we can bank 3/4 on the EOYT I think NZR will be quietly happy with the season. I'm hopeful we'll do better than that, but concerned about the injuries in the tight five. We can't afford any more.
-
Robertson was the right pick. He has not been as successful as we would have wanted, but sacking him off now would be silly. I think a new attack coach would help, but unless things really go pear-shaped between now and the end of the Springboks Tour, he should steer us through to the World Cup.
With international rugby now more competitive than ever, I think you have to be willing to have more give and take.
It has crossed my mind, that given Razor's strength was building and building and building, peaking at the end of a campaign, that the Springbok Tour and World Cup may be more up his alley than the challenges he has faced so far.
If I had to put money either way, I'd still be betting on us winning the next World Cup.
-
-
Defence coach might be a better investment
-
@MiketheSnow That's Scott Hansen at the moment.
@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
@MiketheSnow That's Scott Hansen at the moment.
No that is Tamati Ellison he is defence coach.
Hansen is backline strategic coaching and planning and also working with the Hbs and First Fives.
