Poll: Best AB coach - professional era
-
@MN5 said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
Howlett scored a lot of tries ( more than anyone else ! ) but wasn't a genuine gamebreaker like others were. The more I think about it the more I'd choose Tuqiri over him.
Yes, apart from his speed (reportedly 10.68 s over 100m), skill, ball-handling, kicking, timing, anticipation, fitness, durability, dependability, AB try-scoring record, ability to play 15, teamwork and support play, what did Howlett have to offer?
He did get arrested for being (allegedly) drunk and disorderly in Kilkenny, of all places, so you at least have to give him that.
Games Tries Strike Rate
All Blacks 62 49 0.79
Super Rugby 104 59 0.57
NPC 55 49 0.89
Munster 112 35 0.31
Career 333 192 0.58 -
@nostrildamus And in the car park of Heathrow Hilton Hotel.
-
@mohikamo said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@Chris-B said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
I'm assuming you're not old enough to have seen Bert Cooke - and he was tiny!
Steve Pokere could take a gap, but I don't recall him having jet shoes.
I'll have to say, Super Sid?
Yep, there should have been way more olden time players in that team of the century.
Especially from the likes of the 1920's. AB rugby was extremely strong in that era.
PTM was the only other olden time player to make it; which is super impressive really; because both those players were on the back ends of their careers when TV came along.Another player I've heard old timers rave about was Johnny Smith (40's-50's)
Pokere was a neat little player. Silky i think is the word the commentators use.
Yeah - I really dislike it when people pick their all time greatest team and there's no-one picked prior to 1990. That's not all time. That's the best since 1990.
I reckon you should pretty much be constrained to having to pick one player per decade - and two or three extra picks to get to 15.
Mark Nicholls was apparently a strategic genius in the Grant Fox league.
I just spent ten minutes thinking about who PTM was - Pinetree!
-
@MN5 said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@mohikamo said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@MN5 said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
30 tries in 67 appearances. Played in a couple of World Cups. He went very well.
But I'll admit when you put it like that it's tough to pick him clearly over JR and DH.
Yeah
Add in his RL and i'd have no trouble taking him over JR and DH; nothing really in it tho.
Allways thought DH was one of those types of players that looked better than he actually was.But Rupes over them all.
Howlett scored a lot of tries ( more than anyone else ! ) but wasn't a genuine gamebreaker like others were. The more I think about it the more I'd choose Tuqiri over him.
Terrible take of the week award winner. .
-
@nostrildamus said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@MN5 said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
Howlett scored a lot of tries ( more than anyone else ! ) but wasn't a genuine gamebreaker like others were. The more I think about it the more I'd choose Tuqiri over him.
Yes, apart from his speed (reportedly 10.68 s over 100m), skill, ball-handling, kicking, timing, anticipation, fitness, durability, dependability, AB try-scoring record, ability to play 15, teamwork and support play, what did Howlett have to offer?
He did get arrested for being (allegedly) drunk and disorderly in Kilkenny, of all places, so you at least have to give him that.
Games Tries Strike Rate
All Blacks 62 49 0.79
Super Rugby 104 59 0.57
NPC 55 49 0.89
Munster 112 35 0.31
Career 333 192 0.58All excellent points but I guess I just ( probably unfairly ) think of all the freak tries others have scored more than him.
-
@antipodean said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@MN5 said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@mohikamo said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@MN5 said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
30 tries in 67 appearances. Played in a couple of World Cups. He went very well.
But I'll admit when you put it like that it's tough to pick him clearly over JR and DH.
Yeah
Add in his RL and i'd have no trouble taking him over JR and DH; nothing really in it tho.
Allways thought DH was one of those types of players that looked better than he actually was.But Rupes over them all.
Howlett scored a lot of tries ( more than anyone else ! ) but wasn't a genuine gamebreaker like others were. The more I think about it the more I'd choose Tuqiri over him.
Terrible take of the week award winner. .
I probably didn’t word it quite how I wanted to but any award is a good one on here
I’ll try it in simpler terms
Doug Howlett - Awesome
A few other AB outside backs - even Awesomer
-
@KiwiMurph said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@Chris-B said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
Read Gregor Paul's biography of Hansen earlier this year. He makes a pretty compelling case that Hansen is a more rounded coach than Sir Ted.
Interestingly, he makes a similar case for Keiran Read vs McCaw as captain.
Hansen was phenomenal in his first four years - I think he lost 3 and drew 1 - and built probably the best ever All Black team.
With all due respect to Gregor Paul - Hansen and Read both got to operate in a 'monkey off of the back' environment due to the work done by Henry and McCaw from 07 - 11.
In 2012 for the first time in 21 years the All Blacks didn't have to carry around the tag of 'world cup chokers' which obviously grew over that period. Hansen had his captain in place with still plenty left in the tank and options at 10 with Carter still around and Cruden having taken massive strides in 2011/12 having featured at a RWC and won a Super title with the Chiefs.
Hansen's tenure reminds me of an elongated version of Hart's tenure - very successful with an established team and integrating new talent into said team - followed by a struggle once the senior heads departed (McCaw, Carter, Nonu etc). Of course Hart's drop off was more pronounced but part of that is because the Boks and Wallabies were a joke in 2016-17 (Allister Coetzee was Bok coach and the Wallabies really struggled with an exodus of talent post 2015 RWC) and it really masked how good the ABs were travelling.
Read might have been more engaging as a person for players to deal with and was a solid captain but the proof is in the pudding and he can't hold a candle to McCaw as a leader (and realistically no one was going to be able to after McCaw).
Yeah - Paul says that Read had an impossible act to follow - but, there were things he did better than McCaw. He does come out hard saying that if McCaw was captain we would have won vs the Lions, not least because Garces wouldn't have had the balls to back down McCaw over the penalty - but, also that McCaw would've been better tactically when SBW was sent off - and would've pushed back more against some of Hansen's management. You have to read the book to understand this last point.
No doubt Sir Ted set some sturdy foundations (which Hansen helped with), but the book paints the AB camp from 2008-2011 as a pretty grim and driven place, without much fun. Which is OK if you're Henry and McCaw, but not so much for Dagg and Jane - or apparently Wayne Smith, who left for the Chiefs after 2011.
Anyway, not going to diss Sir Ted too much make a point - he did a fabulous job to win in 2011. It's not a fabulous book - but, it's interesting in the detail it gets into. Interestingly, Facebook threw into my feed today that Gilbert Enoka has a book out. I'll doubtless track a copy down because this stuff interests me - and I vaguely know Gilbert. Played a couple of seasons of low grade cricket with/against him and his brother was my PE teacher at school.
-
@MN5 said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
Doug Howlett - Awesome
arguably our best all round wing.
Pace
Timing
Positioning
Workrate - chasing kicks in particular
Ability to sniff out an offload and score.All he missed was the ridiculous highlights reel of some others. But he was A grade everywhere. Top tier.
-
That particular team was a straight public vote I think; which makes PT and SS even more impressive; because I'd say anyone under 30 hadn't actually seen them play, just heard about them.
And go back even further than Nicholls to someone like Jimmy Hunter.
Part of the first AB team to get to the top in world rugby.Was thinking about Greg Kane
Thought I meet him one time, in the 70s (another lifetime now).
But it wasn't Greg Kane; it was Greg McGee I was thinking of.
Also a very good player (AB trialist).
He was an arty friend of my sister; and subsequently went on to become very well known in another field. -
@mohikamo said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
That particular team was a straight public vote I think; which makes PT and SS even more impressive; because I'd say anyone under 30 hadn't actually seen them play, just heard about them.
And go back even further than Nicholls to someone like Jimmy Hunter.
Part of the first AB team to get to the top in world rugby.I guess it would've been Sid versus Dave Loveridge (a few votes for Laidlaw?) - with the kids possibly voting for Marshall or Bachop.
I think they probably got it right - maybe Smith (passing) vs Roigard (running) will end up the same discussion.
-
-
@Chris-B said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@KiwiMurph said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@Chris-B said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
Read Gregor Paul's biography of Hansen earlier this year. He makes a pretty compelling case that Hansen is a more rounded coach than Sir Ted.
Interestingly, he makes a similar case for Keiran Read vs McCaw as captain.
Hansen was phenomenal in his first four years - I think he lost 3 and drew 1 - and built probably the best ever All Black team.
With all due respect to Gregor Paul - Hansen and Read both got to operate in a 'monkey off of the back' environment due to the work done by Henry and McCaw from 07 - 11.
In 2012 for the first time in 21 years the All Blacks didn't have to carry around the tag of 'world cup chokers' which obviously grew over that period. Hansen had his captain in place with still plenty left in the tank and options at 10 with Carter still around and Cruden having taken massive strides in 2011/12 having featured at a RWC and won a Super title with the Chiefs.
Hansen's tenure reminds me of an elongated version of Hart's tenure - very successful with an established team and integrating new talent into said team - followed by a struggle once the senior heads departed (McCaw, Carter, Nonu etc). Of course Hart's drop off was more pronounced but part of that is because the Boks and Wallabies were a joke in 2016-17 (Allister Coetzee was Bok coach and the Wallabies really struggled with an exodus of talent post 2015 RWC) and it really masked how good the ABs were travelling.
Read might have been more engaging as a person for players to deal with and was a solid captain but the proof is in the pudding and he can't hold a candle to McCaw as a leader (and realistically no one was going to be able to after McCaw).
Yeah - Paul says that Read had an impossible act to follow - but, there were things he did better than McCaw. He does come out hard saying that if McCaw was captain we would have won vs the Lions, not least because Garces wouldn't have had the balls to back down McCaw over the penalty - but, also that McCaw would've been better tactically when SBW was sent off - and would've pushed back more against some of Hansen's management. You have to read the book to understand this last point.
No doubt Sir Ted set some sturdy foundations (which Hansen helped with), but the book paints the AB camp from 2008-2011 as a pretty grim and driven place, without much fun. Which is OK if you're Henry and McCaw, but not so much for Dagg and Jane - or apparently Wayne Smith, who left for the Chiefs after 2011.
Anyway, not going to diss Sir Ted too much make a point - he did a fabulous job to win in 2011. It's not a fabulous book - but, it's interesting in the detail it gets into. Interestingly, Facebook threw into my feed today that Gilbert Enoka has a book out. I'll doubtless track a copy down because this stuff interests me - and I vaguely know Gilbert. Played a couple of seasons of low grade cricket with/against him and his brother was my PE teacher at school.
Yeah I don't think the higher ups approved of their fun
Leading All Blacks misused sleeping pills
Cory Jane and Israel Dagg were involved in a competition using sleeping pills to see who could stay awake the longest, during the 2011 Rugby World Cup
-
@Chris-B said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@mohikamo said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@Chris-B said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
I'm assuming you're not old enough to have seen Bert Cooke - and he was tiny!
Steve Pokere could take a gap, but I don't recall him having jet shoes.
I'll have to say, Super Sid?
Yep, there should have been way more olden time players in that team of the century.
Especially from the likes of the 1920's. AB rugby was extremely strong in that era.
PTM was the only other olden time player to make it; which is super impressive really; because both those players were on the back ends of their careers when TV came along.Another player I've heard old timers rave about was Johnny Smith (40's-50's)
Pokere was a neat little player. Silky i think is the word the commentators use.
Yeah - I really dislike it when people pick their all time greatest team and there's no-one picked prior to 1990. That's not all time. That's the best since 1990.
I reckon you should pretty much be constrained to having to pick one player per decade - and two or three extra picks to get to 15.
Mark Nicholls was apparently a strategic genius in the Grant Fox league.
I just spent ten minutes thinking about who PTM was - Pinetree!
If I'm picking my all time best team I'll pick it from players I've seen play, and if NZ then usually based on seeing them live. I'm still happy to pick a greatest of all time based on reading and reputation - opens it up for more Magpies players then.
-
@Nepia However many you manage to cram in it will pale in comparison to the number of Nelson players who were picked in the best ever NZ team on 15 May 1870!
You've got some interesting choices to make - including who plays fullback - the Magpie or the Viking?
-
@Chris-B said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@Nepia However many you manage to cram in it will pale in comparison to the number of Nelson players who were picked in the best ever NZ team on 15 May 1870!
You've got some interesting choices to make - including who plays fullback - the Magpie or the Viking?
Not even close, the Magpie, he was a, possibly the, great of his generation, the Viking makes my best ever team I've seen play so it's win win.
There's even a potential Nelson College boy in the running at halfback - not sure how Jimmy Mill wound up down that way for a time.
-
Was guna bring up Jimmy Mill.
Every time his name gets a mention, usually got the word "outstanding" next to it.
Between him and SS at halfback for team of the century.
Yeah, Magpies, and Nelson College.
Lot of HB players in the great AB teams of the 1920's. -
@Chris-B said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
No doubt Sir Ted set some sturdy foundations (which Hansen helped with), but the book paints the AB camp from 2008-2011 as a pretty grim and driven place, without much fun. Which is OK if you're Henry and McCaw, but not so much for Dagg and Jane - or apparently Wayne Smith, who left for the Chiefs after 2011.
The reason I imagine it wasnt as much 'fun' was because there was an obsessive goal of the home 2011 RWC.
It's a lot easier to have a looser/fun environment when that goal has been reached and you are reigning world champions without the choker tag and a looming home world cup hanging over the head.
There's an argument to be made since McCaw and co left the attitude has swung too far in the other direction with now a relatively indifferent reaction to record losses.....
