Scotland v All Blacks
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@Mr-Fish said in Scotland v All Blacks:
Not exactly a hot take here, but I don't think any of the current 10s running about in NZ rugby will be the next long-term All Blacks playmaker - not Jacomb, not Reihana, not Love.
Yes.
Lookin down the depth chart rn, I do not see any potential DCs.
The post BB/Dmac/RM AB 10 is not in sight yet.
Hope he comes in to view soon. -
@brodean said in Scotland v All Blacks:
@Mr-Fish said in Scotland v All Blacks:
Not exactly a hot take here, but I don't think any of the current 10s running about in NZ rugby will be the next long-term All Blacks playmaker - not Jacomb, not Reihana, not Love.
Historically, NZ's 10s have looked born to the manor from a young age and have been elevated fairly quickly, even if they haven't taken to Test rugby like a duck to water.
Barrett was 21, Cruden was 21, Carter was 21, Evans was 24, Spencer was 20, Mehrtens was 22.
Has Test rugby become more competitive in the last five years? Undoubtedly. But we've still seen most top flyhalves around the world make their international debut at a young age: Farrell was 20, Russell was 21, Ford was 20.
More recently, Marcus Smith was 22, Fin Smith was 21, Prendergast was 21. Sacha Feinberg-Mngomezulu, who is the closest thing the world's seen to Dan Carter since Dan Carter, was 22.
I think there's a very real chance that the next cab off the ranks isn't even a full-time member of a Super Rugby squad for next year.
Considering the current conservative, fear based selection mindset of NZ coaches, including All Black coaches, I think the chances of a young first five under 24 getting a gig with the AB's any time in the next 5 years are virtually zero - no matter how good they are.
From what I've seen of Reihana and Love this year, and Plummer last year, they'd all likely do a better job than what BB is doing. None of these guys need to be the next Dan Carter. They just need to be better than the current guy which is BB who has mostly been bumbling and circumspect.
Sacha Feinberg-Mngomezulu would have never been selected at 20 for the ABs. He probably wouldn't even get a shot now at age 23 as a starter or even on the bench for the 10 role. He would probably be put on the wing for 10 minutes off the bench if he got selected for the ABs match day 23.
Dylan Pledger is 20 and was arguably the best back in NPC this year and he couldn't even get a wider squad place in the AB's XV who lets face it play second rate opposition.
I agree and for me, the question isn't who's the best first five for this weekend's game, it's who would be better at the 2027 World Cup - an even older, slower, less confident Beauden Barrett or whoever the most promising emerging talent is if that player is given significant experience between now (ideally it would have been since a year or so ago) and 2017?
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@canefan said in Scotland v All Blacks:
Razor has put all his hopes in RM being the man for us in 2027. If he isn't, he should be sent packing as an AB coaching failure
33 year old Richie Mo'unga isn't going to be better than the likes of Sacha FM and Willemse.
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@brodean said in Scotland v All Blacks:
@canefan said in Scotland v All Blacks:
Razor has put all his hopes in RM being the man for us in 2027. If he isn't, he should be sent packing as an AB coaching failure
33 year old Richie Mo'unga isn't going to be better than the likes of Sacha FM and Willemse.
Perhaps someone should teach Razor about the meaning of "contingency"
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@brodean said in Scotland v All Blacks:
@Dan54 said in Scotland v All Blacks:
I genuinely don't think of BB as a Naki boy really, hardly ever played for Naki, he more a Canes-Blues man to me. I was overseas when he had his few games for Naki,
Mate he is a born and bred Naki boy. He's the first listed player for Taranaki.
Taranaki Rugby
The official website of Taranaki Rugby and the Yarrows Taranaki Bulls. Inspiring Taranaki. Enriching Lives.
Oh hell yeah I know that, and that his dad and uncle were Naki stalwarts, I see his old man at club games etc quite often too, just for some reason I never think of him or Scooter as Naki men. Funnily enough Jordie I tend to think of as a Naki boy, because I have seen him at Naki games and he hangs out (and I think lives) here a lot. Scooter and Beauden don't live so don't really think of them as Naki boys these day.Seen at golf clubs etc often. Hell Kirifi is a Naki boy born and raised (went to school and hung out at the Barretts), but never think of him as anything but a Wellington player. Conrad Smith the same, he born here in Hawera grew up here, but he Wellington to me, although he lives here and refs games around the Naki.
Not saying I got it right, just what I consider a Naki boy.
But I admit to your point with Jacomb, as I probably could lean towards him as I have watched him come through the team and have been excited by his promise for a few years. With BB , I just think like it or not he in my opinion he best option is all. When they play for ABs that not Naki, Canes (my team) etc etc, they are who is best for ABs for me. -
@DurryMexted said in Scotland v All Blacks:
@sparky said in Scotland v All Blacks:
How many bad games can Ardie Savea and Beauden Barrett keep having in Black?
I can't remember any of our players in the past escaping scrutiny for such consistently disappointing performances.
Thats the issue - there is a cognitive dissonance across the whole of NZ (& world) rugby media and consumers - people genuinely watch these guys play and their branding just over rides any actual critical thought about how these guys should be playing
So true.
Non NZ rugby media in particular give effusive praise to them both based mostly on reputation.
It's weird how in some quarters, actual form is a complete irrelevance when judging players. It's all vibes and highlights from years ago. Ardie was absolutely superb in Super rugby but he's not had a great test season but given his profile and PR he will never face all that much scrutiny.
I'm not even hating, it's just funny how in a professional workplace you can get away with so much based on your work performance a long time ago.
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@nonpartizan said in Scotland v All Blacks:
@DurryMexted said in Scotland v All Blacks:
@sparky said in Scotland v All Blacks:
How many bad games can Ardie Savea and Beauden Barrett keep having in Black?
I can't remember any of our players in the past escaping scrutiny for such consistently disappointing performances.
Thats the issue - there is a cognitive dissonance across the whole of NZ (& world) rugby media and consumers - people genuinely watch these guys play and their branding just over rides any actual critical thought about how these guys should be playing
So true.
Non NZ rugby media in particular give effusive praise to them both based mostly on reputation.
It's weird how in some quarters, actual form is a complete irrelevance when judging players. It's all vibes and highlights from years ago. Ardie was absolutely superb in Super rugby but he's not had a great test season but given his profile and PR he will never face all that much scrutiny.
I'm not even hating, it's just funny how in a professional workplace you can get away with so much based on your work performance a long time ago.
Especially something as competitive as elite international sport. Having said that, NZR don't fire SR or AB coaches (as opposed to not rehiring them once they have finished their contract), so I don't think it is as cutthroat as other pro games
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@mohikamo said in Scotland v All Blacks:
@Mr-Fish said in Scotland v All Blacks:
Not exactly a hot take here, but I don't think any of the current 10s running about in NZ rugby will be the next long-term All Blacks playmaker - not Jacomb, not Reihana, not Love.
Yes.
Lookin down the depth chart rn, I do not see any potential DCs.
The post BB/Dmac/RM AB 10 is not in sight yet.
Hope he comes in to view soon.Well the gods have been very generous last couple of years for props, locks, loose forwards. There is hope.
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@brodean said in Scotland v All Blacks:
@canefan said in Scotland v All Blacks:
Razor has put all his hopes in RM being the man for us in 2027. If he isn't, he should be sent packing as an AB coaching failure
33 year old Richie Mo'unga isn't going to be better than the likes of Sacha FM and Willemse.
Or DMac probably
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@ACT-Crusader said in Scotland v All Blacks:
I haven’t turned completely cynical when it comes to the economics of international rugby, but with the influence Beaudie had on securing a major multimillion dollar sponsorship deal and the fact he signed that 4 year deal back in 2023 after he cashed in at Suntory, it all adds up or perhaps it doesn’t…..
Expected a fresh approach when Robertson took over and was a bit surprised when BB signed that 4 year contract.
Then thought it made sense in some ways to have a senior bloke in the squad or 23 for experience or mentoring, but it seems to have morphed into a guaranteed appearance thing. It's a bit weird as you say.
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@taniwharugby said in Scotland v All Blacks:
@Mr-Fish unfortunately both Fozzie and Razor were reluctant to really push the boat out and be bold.with some selections, instead just kept on selecting players despite obvious replacements not.being there.
Which one 1 hand is why they played these guys as much, but it also puts a roadblock up.
For Fozzie, we were lucky with Aaron Smiths form.and longevity, but for Razor, every test BB plays is another Dmac doesn't get or Jacomb or Reihana dont either, and while they may not seem ready, some players respond to the .higher level better, but if they never get a chance to.
What disappoints with Robertson is he had 4 uninterrupted years to really develop players and gameplans. Instead there seems a continuing reliance on the old guard with injury being the main engine of change.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Scotland v All Blacks:
@taniwharugby said in Scotland v All Blacks:
@Mr-Fish unfortunately both Fozzie and Razor were reluctant to really push the boat out and be bold.with some selections, instead just kept on selecting players despite obvious replacements not.being there.
Which one 1 hand is why they played these guys as much, but it also puts a roadblock up.
For Fozzie, we were lucky with Aaron Smiths form.and longevity, but for Razor, every test BB plays is another Dmac doesn't get or Jacomb or Reihana dont either, and while they may not seem ready, some players respond to the .higher level better, but if they never get a chance to.
What disappoints with Robertson is he had 4 uninterrupted years to really develop players and gameplans. Instead there seems a continuing reliance on the old guard with injury being the main engine of change.
Two years into the cycle and I don't see a structure that will get us to RWC glory. Maybe we just aren't seeing the whole picture
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@BerniesCorner said in Scotland v All Blacks:
@mohikamo said in Scotland v All Blacks:
@Mr-Fish said in Scotland v All Blacks:
Not exactly a hot take here, but I don't think any of the current 10s running about in NZ rugby will be the next long-term All Blacks playmaker - not Jacomb, not Reihana, not Love.
Yes.
Lookin down the depth chart rn, I do not see any potential DCs.
The post BB/Dmac/RM AB 10 is not in sight yet.
Hope he comes in to view soon.Well injury-forced selections
the godshave been very generous last couple of years for props, locks, loose forwards. There is hope.Fixed it.
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@pakman said in Scotland v All Blacks:
Anyone got a link to good stats database covering game? Interested in tackle completions/misses by player.
The RugbyPass match page has a reasonable statistical overview:
New Zealand vs Scotland | Scotland vs New Zealand | Match Stats | Internationals Live
Looking for New Zealand vs Scotland? We got you covered. We have the most up to date scores, game stats & results here.
Their stats for tackles completed/missed are relatively reliable, although sometimes I end up with slightly different numbers. To use a somewhat controversial example around here: RugbyPass recorded just the one tackle for Frizell in the RWC final but when I watched it again, I saw him make multiple completed attempts.
So if you really want to make sure, I still think it's best to player-cam the specific player (although that's obviously quite time-consuming, especially if you can't speed up the footage).
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@Mauss said in Scotland v All Blacks:
@pakman said in Scotland v All Blacks:
Anyone got a link to good stats database covering game? Interested in tackle completions/misses by player.
The RugbyPass match page has a reasonable statistical overview:
New Zealand vs Scotland | Scotland vs New Zealand | Match Stats | Internationals Live
Looking for New Zealand vs Scotland? We got you covered. We have the most up to date scores, game stats & results here.
Their stats for tackles completed/missed are relatively reliable, although sometimes I end up with slightly different numbers. To use a somewhat controversial example around here: RugbyPass recorded just the one tackle for Frizell in the RWC final but when I watched it again, I saw him make multiple completed attempts.
So if you really want to make sure, I still think it's best to player-cam the specific player (although that's obviously quite time-consuming, especially if you can't speed up the footage).
Have you given us a match review yet Mauss?
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@canefan said in Scotland v All Blacks:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Scotland v All Blacks:
@taniwharugby said in Scotland v All Blacks:
@Mr-Fish unfortunately both Fozzie and Razor were reluctant to really push the boat out and be bold.with some selections, instead just kept on selecting players despite obvious replacements not.being there.
Which one 1 hand is why they played these guys as much, but it also puts a roadblock up.
For Fozzie, we were lucky with Aaron Smiths form.and longevity, but for Razor, every test BB plays is another Dmac doesn't get or Jacomb or Reihana dont either, and while they may not seem ready, some players respond to the .higher level better, but if they never get a chance to.
What disappoints with Robertson is he had 4 uninterrupted years to really develop players and gameplans. Instead there seems a continuing reliance on the old guard with injury being the main engine of change.
Two years into the cycle and I don't see a structure that will get us to RWC glory. Maybe we just aren't seeing the whole picture
Remember our forward pack a couple of years ago. Light years ahead now. At one stage we didn't have a prop.
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@canefan said in Scotland v All Blacks:
Have you given us a match review yet Mauss?
Well, I don't know if I would call it a review but I did look at the game a bit more closely, by focusing on how the return of the offload in recent Tests has influenced the AB attack.
It's post #962 in this thread.
