England v All Blacks
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@KiwiMurph said in England Vs All Blacks:
ALB sucks as a bench option
Gets a bench spot
Make it make sense....
Sack the clown.
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@Chris-B said in England Vs All Blacks:
It would be interesting to do a detailed season-wide analysis of catching high balls to verify who is best (and worst). Not just a raw score of catches and drops - but, looking at catches in traffic and outcomes compared with expected outcomes - some sort of rational scoring system and commentary.
Unfortunately, it would probably require "someone" to watch all the games again. Maybe he (or she!) can do it next year!
That sounds like an awful lot of work for whoever you’re referring to.
Anyways, speaking of unpaid labour and the exploitation of the working class, this whole high ball-discussion reminds me of a recent Gary’s Economics-video where he’s talking about the rising housing prices. He makes the point that everyone thinks their specific city has a housing crisis while, in reality, it’s a global issue, necessitated by the growing inequality between the ultrarich and the working poor. [Just in case I happened to have piqued someone’s interest, this is the video I’m referring to: youtube.co/watch?v=BTlUyS-T-_4]
I think a similar misconception is at work in the high ball-discussion. The reality is that it’s not just the All Blacks who are experiencing a high ball-crisis. All teams are currently struggling with defensive kick receipts: Welsh fans are about ready to lynch Blair Murray, Freddie Steward shelled multiple high balls against the Wallabies on the 1st of November, Tom Wright didn’t catch a single attacking bomb against the Boks at Ellis Park, and, for the All Blacks XV, 6ft3 Chay Fihaki couldn’t deal with the England A aerials. Whether you're a tall high ball-expert or a scrumcapped Bok midget, the results will most likely be the same: you're going to drop more balls than you're going to catch.
Right now, if your halfback has a solid kicking game, chances are you’re going to be handsomely rewarded for going to the boot. Quietly, box-kicking 9s have been making a clear comeback: Nic White was crucial for the Wallaby success against both the Lions and the Boks, Reinach’s contestable kicking has been instrumental in the post-Eden Park Bok resurgence, and someone like Ben Spencer, the 33-year old Bath halfback, has suddenly become an important piece within the English attacking puzzle.
Galthié has already been criticized for quite a few selection errors against the Springboks but arguably his biggest one was selecting Le Garrec ahead of Maxime Lucu. Le Garrec’s kicks were consistently too deep at the Stade de France which gave the Boks backfield breathing space. Whenever the kicks were on the money, there was little that Kolbe, Willemse and Arendse could do against the French chasers.
Anyway, all of this to say that this isn’t something uniquely pertinent to the All Blacks alone. But where the ABs have been lacking, I think, is in those moments right before and after high balls. What the ABs need to do, more than anything else, is work on their defensive retreat and make sure that any spilt ball from the high ball is cleaned up.
This will be especially critical against England. The English chasers have very little interest in actually catching the ball: they will aim to flood the receipt space with their band of chasing wingers/flankers, making sure that the AB back 3 can’t catch cleanly. After that, they can either (1) attack the space behind themselves (see Pollock try against Wallabies) or (2) release the ball to a backline that is already expertly aligned by George Ford and ready to pounce.
So in my view, while the catch is obviously important, it’s only the first step. What is as crucial, if not more, is the collective coordination both before and immediately after the catch. The AB backline will need to match the speed of English realignment and get off the line, making sure that England don’t have the clean width of the field to attack in these kinds of situations.
@Mauss said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Chris-B said in England Vs All Blacks:
It would be interesting to do a detailed season-wide analysis of catching high balls to verify who is best (and worst). Not just a raw score of catches and drops - but, looking at catches in traffic and outcomes compared with expected outcomes - some sort of rational scoring system and commentary.
Unfortunately, it would probably require "someone" to watch all the games again. Maybe he (or she!) can do it next year!
That sounds like an awful lot of work for whoever you’re referring to.
I think a similar misconception is at work in the high ball-discussion. The reality is that it’s not just the All Blacks who are experiencing a high ball-crisis. All teams are currently struggling with defensive kick receipts: Welsh fans are about ready to lynch Blair Murray, Freddie Steward shelled multiple high balls against the Wallabies on the 1st of November, Tom Wright didn’t catch a single attacking bomb against the Boks at Ellis Park, and, for the All Blacks XV, 6ft3 Chay Fihaki couldn’t deal with the England A aerials. Whether you're a tall high ball-expert or a scrumcapped Bok midget, the results will most likely be the same: you're going to drop more balls than you're going to catch.
Right now, if your halfback has a solid kicking game, chances are you’re going to be handsomely rewarded for going to the boot. Quietly, box-kicking 9s have been making a clear comeback: Nic White was crucial for the Wallaby success against both the Lions and the Boks, Reinach’s contestable kicking has been instrumental in the post-Eden Park Bok resurgence, and someone like Ben Spencer, the 33-year old Bath halfback, has suddenly become an important piece within the English attacking puzzle.
Galthié has already been criticized for quite a few selection errors against the Springboks but arguably his biggest one was selecting Le Garrec ahead of Maxime Lucu. Le Garrec’s kicks were consistently too deep at the Stade de France which gave the Boks backfield breathing space. Whenever the kicks were on the money, there was little that Kolbe, Willemse and Arendse could do against the French chasers.
This seems to chime with your analysis:
Check out Penaud's kick chase!
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@pakman said in England Vs All Blacks:
There's a correlation (at least in the US) between 'desirability' of location and the ease of blocking new buildings. Homelessness is more evident in affluent cities (than poorer ones), for example.
I really need to work on my joke delivery.
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I think I would have had reiko on the bench to give the option of putting leister back in the midfield if required
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@pakman said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Mauss I should have clocked that from the Gary Stevenson reference!
I like him. Not so much as an economist per se. More as a sort of modern-day court jester. He’s like a character that’s jumped out of Brant’s Das Narrenschiff, a beautiful, bat-eared clown in these increasingly feudalistic times.
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@KiwiMurph said in England Vs All Blacks:
ALB sucks as a bench option
Gets a bench spot
Make it make sense....
Sack the clown.
@Jet said in England Vs All Blacks:
@KiwiMurph said in England Vs All Blacks:
ALB sucks as a bench option
Gets a bench spot
Make it make sense....
Sack the clown.
I not surprised ALB on bench, I not sure they want to risk having to run either Proctor or LF at 12, mainly for defensive reasons?
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Going to be interesting,
Dunno but I do suspect this is a scalp England really want and will be primed , and my concerns are not so much with what they are going to bring , but more what we bring in return.
We got away with patchy performances against Ireland and Scotland where we were good in bursts and poor at other times , I suspect we will need something closer to an 80 minute performance this week.
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Bear in mind this is a Borthwick team. If we can get on top, I can't see they will have the belief they have the tools to work their way back. If they get on top, I wouldn't count against us coming back. Basically we're lucky he's coached less resolve into them than Razor has into the ABs.
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On form S Barrett is a world class lock, but we haven't seen it for awhile. I'm ok with him playing, but if doesn't perform, then it has to be time to look at other options, as the other locks are looking better than him now.
ALB is a bit of a joke, my memories of now are coming on and getting carded, I understand we need coverage at 12, but there has to be a better solution. If he comes on, tries too hard and gives away a card again then he has to go.
I would keep developing LF at 13, he is the only 13 in recent memory to look threatening. Line breaks at 13 have been very few and far between. Procter was the form Super player at 13, but it has not translated to test for some reason.
Otherwise I think its about the team we all expected.@Darren said in England Vs All Blacks:
On form S Barrett is a world class lock, but we haven't seen it for awhile. I'm ok with him playing, but if doesn't perform, then it has to be time to look at other options, as the other locks are looking better than him now.
ALB is a bit of a joke, my memories of now are coming on and getting carded, I understand we need coverage at 12, but there has to be a better solution. If he comes on, tries too hard and gives away a card again then he has to go.
I would keep developing LF at 13, he is the only 13 in recent memory to look threatening. Line breaks at 13 have been very few and far between. Procter was the form Super player at 13, but it has not translated to test for some reason.
Otherwise I think its about the team we all expected.Razor just never seems to pick based on any reliable formula as Proctor in for LF shows.. LF should have started there so that him and Tupaea can continue to develop that combination. He had flaws at 13 but was more good than bad there and he was definitely effective in attack.
For certain players form is a complete irrelevance, they will start if fit. Then, he will pick players for key roles who haven't been in a matchday 23 (or haven't started) for a wee while. It all seems a bit haphazard.
The idea that he is personally committed to developing 4 players per position is total BS because he tends not to alter his team much unless there have been injuries. The depth is developed as a byproduct of being forced to pick players to replace injured ones, not because he is proactive in switching it up.
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Last November
What happened to Tele'a?
That's the 'X Factor' you're missing. His finish for his second try was easily as impressive as DMac's last weekend. He beat three defenders who were in position to tackle him not lunging for him.
And how easy was Jordan's untouched run-in when BB attacks the line keeping the defence guessing?
@MiketheSnow said in England Vs All Blacks:
Last November
What happened to Tele'a?
That's the 'X Factor' you're missing. His finish for his second try was easily as impressive as DMac's last weekend. He beat three defenders who were in position to tackle him not lunging for him.
And how easy was Jordan's untouched run-in when BB attacks the line keeping the defence guessing?
He signed for a japenese club so they decided not to select him.
Unfortunately BB now either kicks poorly or shovels it along, so if he gets the ball then defence know just to rush up on 12
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@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:
Like it, but bollocks to 10/15/22.
Hilarious to hear Rieko described as dynamic though.
…..I meant dynamic compared to ‘running in treacle’ ALB
@MN5 said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:
Like it, but bollocks to 10/15/22.
Hilarious to hear Rieko described as dynamic though.
…..I meant dynamic compared to ‘running in treacle’ ALB
True, gotta love the amount of attacking plays Rieko has been a feature in Vs ALB. What I'd give.
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@Mauss said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Chris-B said in England Vs All Blacks:
It would be interesting to do a detailed season-wide analysis of catching high balls to verify who is best (and worst). Not just a raw score of catches and drops - but, looking at catches in traffic and outcomes compared with expected outcomes - some sort of rational scoring system and commentary.
Unfortunately, it would probably require "someone" to watch all the games again. Maybe he (or she!) can do it next year!
That sounds like an awful lot of work for whoever you’re referring to.
I think a similar misconception is at work in the high ball-discussion. The reality is that it’s not just the All Blacks who are experiencing a high ball-crisis. All teams are currently struggling with defensive kick receipts: Welsh fans are about ready to lynch Blair Murray, Freddie Steward shelled multiple high balls against the Wallabies on the 1st of November, Tom Wright didn’t catch a single attacking bomb against the Boks at Ellis Park, and, for the All Blacks XV, 6ft3 Chay Fihaki couldn’t deal with the England A aerials. Whether you're a tall high ball-expert or a scrumcapped Bok midget, the results will most likely be the same: you're going to drop more balls than you're going to catch.
Right now, if your halfback has a solid kicking game, chances are you’re going to be handsomely rewarded for going to the boot. Quietly, box-kicking 9s have been making a clear comeback: Nic White was crucial for the Wallaby success against both the Lions and the Boks, Reinach’s contestable kicking has been instrumental in the post-Eden Park Bok resurgence, and someone like Ben Spencer, the 33-year old Bath halfback, has suddenly become an important piece within the English attacking puzzle.
Galthié has already been criticized for quite a few selection errors against the Springboks but arguably his biggest one was selecting Le Garrec ahead of Maxime Lucu. Le Garrec’s kicks were consistently too deep at the Stade de France which gave the Boks backfield breathing space. Whenever the kicks were on the money, there was little that Kolbe, Willemse and Arendse could do against the French chasers.
This seems to chime with your analysis:
Check out Penaud's kick chase!
@pakman said in England Vs All Blacks:
This seems to chime with your analysis:
Check out Penaud's kick chase!
Some interesting points in there. I don’t disagree with their take that Penaud is a somewhat lazy chaser but I do disagree with their claim that Le Garrec’s box-kicking was on point. Multiple of his box kicks were quite deep inside the Bok 22; not even Kolbe would’ve gotten there in time. Bielle-Biarrey, who puts in a lot more effort, wasn’t able to reach multiple Le Garrec kicks either.
Also, their argument that Penaud’s lazy chase in the 2nd half – “3 steps worth of effort changed the game” – is not very convincing, as I felt that South Africa pretty much battered the French throughout that game. If it weren’t for that red card, I think you’re looking at a Wellington-type 2nd half for France.
Their point about a changed French kicking game, and how it compounded certain errors in areas like defensive kick receipt, is well made though.
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The Tupaea-Proctor midfield combo has played well together in the past.
England will be aiming to bully us up front (see the SA in Wellington example), so it is the forwards that will need to perform. The ABs can set the tone in the first scrum.
