All Blacks 2025

canefan

@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:

@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:

@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:

@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:

To be honest, I'm sort of OK with it, the more of the rugby public that realise how diabolical things have gotten under this coaching group, the more pressure NZR will be under to move them on before the next RWC. Doing Gods work @mariner4life

Doesn't matter what we think or want, there is no way this group will be moved on. Realistically not sure any of us should want that, would cause more problems than it would fix.

Wrong Dan. Just like Foster lost all his assistants after narrowly missing getting fired for poor performance, Razor needs to be put on notice by losing all his assistants except Ryan

I disagree ... Tubby Ryan can fuck off too.

If he was the one to shut out Hoskins? Yeah fuck off mate

Bones

Just been sent that article again where McCaw waffles on about development and being ready, citing Parker I think?

The more I think about it, the more it irks me. Who the fuck was available and ready then? Is he saying Paps and Sotutu should be there?

Proctor looked ready, Kirifi looked ready. Look where that got us?

I think the most annoying thing is him trying to pull wool over everyone's eyes, ignoring the absolute failure in the leadership team, coaching and hundred test ABs pretending they're playing in the backyard with their brothers.

You're on thin ice Richie.

frugby

Given Razor's first test was against England, you can make some reasonable comparisons. The 23s:
England in Dunedin 2024/England in London 2025

Ethan de Groot
Codie Taylor
Tyrel Lomax/Fletcher Newell
Scott Barrett
Patrick Tuipulotu/Josh Lord
Samipeni Finau/Simon Parker
Dalton Papalii/Ardie Savea
Ardie Savea/Peter Lakai
TJ Perenara/Cam Roigard
Damian McKenzie/Beauden Barrett
Mark Telea/Leicester Fainga'anuku
Jordie Barrett/Quinn Tupaea
Rieko Ioane/Billy Proctor
Sevu Reece/Leroy Carter
Stephen Perofeta/Will Jordan
Asafo Aumua/Samisoni Taukei'aho
Ofa Tu'ungafasi/Tamaiti Williams
Fletcher Newell/Pasilio Tosi
Tupou Vaa'i/Sam Darry
Luke Jacobson/Wallace Sititi
Finlay Christie/Cortez Ratima
Anton Lienert-Brown
Beauden Barrett/Damian McKenzie

Obviously injuries play a part, but I honestly think if anything sums up that things are going wrong, it is that 18 months down the line from Razor's first test, he still has Anton Lienert-Brown filling the 22 jersey.

Outside of that, despite the criticism, they have actually managed to blood a lot of players, even if it has been due to injuries, the issue is, a lot of them don't seem to be very good. The debutants in the Razor era:

Cortez Ratima - Could/should feasibly end up fifth in the pecking order by the next international window
Billy Proctor - Incredibly underwhelming given the hype
Noah Hotham - Jury massively still out
George Bell - Hardly used since
Wallace Sititi - Star burned early, but has not been great this year
Pasilio Tosi - Think he has been a success
Sam Darry - Rated as our sixth best lock
Harry Plummer - Gone
Peter Lakai - After a near flawless debut, hardly sighted until the EOYT this year
Ruben Love - LOL
Fabian Holland - Stevie Wonder could see his talent
Christian Lio-Willie - Solid v France then done away with
Du'Plessis Kirifi - Unlikely to be an All Black next year
Ollie Norris - Looks a prospect
Timoci Tavatavanawai - Given injury, tough to say how his season may have ended up, but the mafia chose ALB on the bench ahead of him in Argentina so...
Brodie McAllister - Barring an injury crisis won't play again for the All Blacks
Simon Parker - Has underwhelmed
Leroy Carter - Good solid start, but his long-term prospects don't appear strong

Overwhelmingly, this seems to be a case of quality, not quantity. There are several things here. Is this poor talent ID? Is this poor coaching? Is this poor gameplan?

Probably a combination? I could be wrong, but I don't imagine there is actually a heck of a lot of technical coaching occuring at the international level - I imagine that happens at club level before you actually reach the top level. The ABs not being able to pass under pressure is not the fault of the coaches from a coaching perspective, but more a selection perspective.
The question is whether the guys not selected are much better? Given we have cycled through so many players, the chance of say Ruben Love or Hoskins Sotutu coming in and shining in this environment feels extraordinarily slim, and I don't know enough to explain why. Is it a case of Super Rugby not preparing guys for test rugby or is this squarely on the coaches? As @Bones says, Proctor particularly just looked like an obvious upgrade to the regular punter.

I have no doubt the All Blacks will eventually get back to the top of the pile, because these things are cyclical, but I suspect there will be some really interesting takes of what is happening in NZR right now from many different people in ten years time, and given difference of opinion, we may never truly get an answer.

reprobate

@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:

Just been sent that article again where McCaw waffles on about development and being ready, citing Parker I think?

The more I think about it, the more it irks me. Who the fuck was available and ready then? Is he saying Paps and Sotutu should be there?

Proctor looked ready, Kirifi looked ready. Look where that got us?

I think the most annoying thing is him trying to pull wool over everyone's eyes, ignoring the absolute failure in the leadership team, coaching and hundred test ABs pretending they're playing in the backyard with their brothers.

You're on thin ice Richie.

Totally. It's utter bullshit to put any blame at the door of newbies like Parker and Proctor when our senior ABs are dishing up as bad or worse slop on a weekly basis, I don't care who you are.

ploughboy

fuck picking on the players .this team is rudderless because of the coaches. swap anyone in or out we will get the same result as tactically we are clueless

reprobate

@ploughboy said in All Blacks 2025:

fuck picking on the players .this team is rudderless because of the coaches. swap anyone in or out we will get the same result as tactically we are clueless

Largely, but we do have a senior player missing touch from penalties most weeks.

Grooter

@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:

Given Razor's first test was against England, you can make some reasonable comparisons. The 23s:
England in Dunedin 2024/England in London 2025

Ethan de Groot

Codie Taylor

Tyrel Lomax/Fletcher Newell

Scott Barrett

Patrick Tuipulotu/Josh Lord

Samipeni Finau/Simon Parker

Dalton Papalii/Ardie Savea

Ardie Savea/Peter Lakai

TJ Perenara/Cam Roigard

Damian McKenzie/Beauden Barrett

Mark Telea/Leicester Fainga'anuku

Jordie Barrett/Quinn Tupaea

Rieko Ioane/Billy Proctor

Sevu Reece/Leroy Carter

Stephen Perofeta/Will Jordan

Asafo Aumua/Samisoni Taukei'aho

Ofa Tu'ungafasi/Tamaiti Williams

Fletcher Newell/Pasilio Tosi

Tupou Vaa'i/Sam Darry

Luke Jacobson/Wallace Sititi

Finlay Christie/Cortez Ratima

Anton Lienert-Brown

Beauden Barrett/Damian McKenzie

Obviously injuries play a part, but I honestly think if anything sums up that things are going wrong, it is that 18 months down the line from Razor's first test, he still has Anton Lienert-Brown filling the 22 jersey.

Outside of that, despite the criticism, they have actually managed to blood a lot of players, even if it has been due to injuries, the issue is, a lot of them don't seem to be very good. The debutants in the Razor era:

Cortez Ratima - Could/should feasibly end up fifth in the pecking order by the next international window
Billy Proctor - Incredibly underwhelming given the hype
Noah Hotham - Jury massively still out
George Bell - Hardly used since
Wallace Sititi - Star burned early, but has not been great this year
Pasilio Tosi - Think he has been a success
Sam Darry - Rated as our sixth best lock
Harry Plummer - Gone
Peter Lakai - After a near flawless debut, hardly sighted until the EOYT this year
Ruben Love - LOL
Fabian Holland - Stevie Wonder could see his talent
Christian Lio-Willie - Solid v France then done away with
Du'Plessis Kirifi - Unlikely to be an All Black next year
Ollie Norris - Looks a prospect
Timoci Tavatavanawai - Given injury, tough to say how his season may have ended up, but the mafia chose ALB on the bench ahead of him in Argentina so...
Brodie McAllister - Barring an injury crisis won't play again for the All Blacks
Simon Parker - Has underwhelmed
Leroy Carter - Good solid start, but his long-term prospects don't appear strong

Overwhelmingly, this seems to be a case of quality, not quantity. There are several things here. Is this poor talent ID? Is this poor coaching? Is this poor gameplan?

Probably a combination? I could be wrong, but I don't imagine there is actually a heck of a lot of technical coaching occuring at the international level - I imagine that happens at club level before you actually reach the top level. The ABs not being able to pass under pressure is not the fault of the coaches from a coaching perspective, but more a selection perspective.
The question is whether the guys not selected are much better? Given we have cycled through so many players, the chance of say Ruben Love or Hoskins Sotutu coming in and shining in this environment feels extraordinarily slim, and I don't know enough to explain why. Is it a case of Super Rugby not preparing guys for test rugby or is this squarely on the coaches? As @Bones says, Proctor particularly just looked like an obvious upgrade to the regular punter.

I have no doubt the All Blacks will eventually get back to the top of the pile, because these things are cyclical, but I suspect there will be some really interesting takes of what is happening in NZR right now from many different people in ten years time, and given difference of opinion, we may never truly get an answer.

Love would've been better off playing 7 or 8 rounds of npc as Wellingtons 10 than his 20 minutes on the wing during the Rugby championship

ploughboy

@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:

@ploughboy said in All Blacks 2025:

fuck picking on the players .this team is rudderless because of the coaches. swap anyone in or out we will get the same result as tactically we are clueless

Largely, but we do have a senior player missing touch from penalties most weeks.

yeah fair enough he can be the exception

canefan

@ploughboy said in All Blacks 2025:

fuck picking on the players .this team is rudderless because of the coaches. swap anyone in or out we will get the same result as tactically we are clueless

Plenty of blame pie to go around. But the buck must stop with the coaches. They pick the players, they set the framework, a pattern that doesn't seem to bring out the best in the players they chose

Bones

@Grooter said in All Blacks 2025:

@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:

Given Razor's first test was against England, you can make some reasonable comparisons. The 23s:
England in Dunedin 2024/England in London 2025

Ethan de Groot

Codie Taylor

Tyrel Lomax/Fletcher Newell

Scott Barrett

Patrick Tuipulotu/Josh Lord

Samipeni Finau/Simon Parker

Dalton Papalii/Ardie Savea

Ardie Savea/Peter Lakai

TJ Perenara/Cam Roigard

Damian McKenzie/Beauden Barrett

Mark Telea/Leicester Fainga'anuku

Jordie Barrett/Quinn Tupaea

Rieko Ioane/Billy Proctor

Sevu Reece/Leroy Carter

Stephen Perofeta/Will Jordan

Asafo Aumua/Samisoni Taukei'aho

Ofa Tu'ungafasi/Tamaiti Williams

Fletcher Newell/Pasilio Tosi

Tupou Vaa'i/Sam Darry

Luke Jacobson/Wallace Sititi

Finlay Christie/Cortez Ratima

Anton Lienert-Brown

Beauden Barrett/Damian McKenzie

Obviously injuries play a part, but I honestly think if anything sums up that things are going wrong, it is that 18 months down the line from Razor's first test, he still has Anton Lienert-Brown filling the 22 jersey.

Outside of that, despite the criticism, they have actually managed to blood a lot of players, even if it has been due to injuries, the issue is, a lot of them don't seem to be very good. The debutants in the Razor era:

Cortez Ratima - Could/should feasibly end up fifth in the pecking order by the next international window
Billy Proctor - Incredibly underwhelming given the hype
Noah Hotham - Jury massively still out
George Bell - Hardly used since
Wallace Sititi - Star burned early, but has not been great this year
Pasilio Tosi - Think he has been a success
Sam Darry - Rated as our sixth best lock
Harry Plummer - Gone
Peter Lakai - After a near flawless debut, hardly sighted until the EOYT this year
Ruben Love - LOL
Fabian Holland - Stevie Wonder could see his talent
Christian Lio-Willie - Solid v France then done away with
Du'Plessis Kirifi - Unlikely to be an All Black next year
Ollie Norris - Looks a prospect
Timoci Tavatavanawai - Given injury, tough to say how his season may have ended up, but the mafia chose ALB on the bench ahead of him in Argentina so...
Brodie McAllister - Barring an injury crisis won't play again for the All Blacks
Simon Parker - Has underwhelmed
Leroy Carter - Good solid start, but his long-term prospects don't appear strong

Overwhelmingly, this seems to be a case of quality, not quantity. There are several things here. Is this poor talent ID? Is this poor coaching? Is this poor gameplan?

Probably a combination? I could be wrong, but I don't imagine there is actually a heck of a lot of technical coaching occuring at the international level - I imagine that happens at club level before you actually reach the top level. The ABs not being able to pass under pressure is not the fault of the coaches from a coaching perspective, but more a selection perspective.
The question is whether the guys not selected are much better? Given we have cycled through so many players, the chance of say Ruben Love or Hoskins Sotutu coming in and shining in this environment feels extraordinarily slim, and I don't know enough to explain why. Is it a case of Super Rugby not preparing guys for test rugby or is this squarely on the coaches? As @Bones says, Proctor particularly just looked like an obvious upgrade to the regular punter.

I have no doubt the All Blacks will eventually get back to the top of the pile, because these things are cyclical, but I suspect there will be some really interesting takes of what is happening in NZR right now from many different people in ten years time, and given difference of opinion, we may never truly get an answer.

Love would've been better off playing 7 or 8 rounds of npc as Wellingtons 10 than his 20 minutes on the wing during the Rugby championship

Then the coaches might have to actually give him a chance in one of his actual positions for more than 3 minutes at the end of a loss and couldn't keep picking Jordan and Beauden.

canefan

And after two years we are making the same old mistakes, there is very little positive evolution

Bovidae

@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:

Razor needs to be put on notice by losing all his assistants except Ryan

The list of assistant coaches who would be willing to work with Robertson must be low. He's exhausted nearly everyone from the Crusaders system.

canefan

@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2025:

@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:

Razor needs to be put on notice by losing all his assistants except Ryan

The list of assistant coaches who would be willing to work with Robertson must be low. He's exhausted nearly everyone from the Crusaders system.

He doesn't get to choose. I want him to feel uncomfortable, he's been far too comfortable. Someone higher up should choose. Jamie Joseph will probably be one, a guy who seems no nonsense and bled black when he was a player.

Bones

@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2025:

@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:

Razor needs to be put on notice by losing all his assistants except Ryan

The list of assistant coaches who would be willing to work with Robertson must be low. He's exhausted nearly everyone from the Crusaders system.

Floss would probably rather be in NZ?

Frank

@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:

@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:

To be honest, I'm sort of OK with it, the more of the rugby public that realise how diabolical things have gotten under this coaching group, the more pressure NZR will be under to move them on before the next RWC. Doing Gods work @mariner4life

Doesn't matter what we think or want, there is no way this group will be moved on. Realistically not sure any of us should want that, would cause more problems than it would fix.

Back to defending the status quo, no matter how shit it is.

hikastags

Our loose forwards are fucking soft and nobody has mongrel. We need a couple blokes with some screws loose.

nostrildamus

@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:

Stop stressing everyone, Mounga will be back soon !

I wish there was a way we could tag such incendiary posts with an evil eye icon...

nostrildamus

@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:

@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2025:

@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:

Razor needs to be put on notice by losing all his assistants except Ryan

The list of assistant coaches who would be willing to work with Robertson must be low. He's exhausted nearly everyone from the Crusaders system.

He doesn't get to choose. I want him to feel uncomfortable, he's been far too comfortable. Someone higher up should choose. Jamie Joseph will probably be one, a guy who seems no nonsense and bled black when he was a player.

the coaching team is too samey samey.
On the bright side, didn't Foster's team improve dramatically when his assistant coaches were replaced?! (And when they had COVID but we won't mention that).

nostrildamus

@hikastags said in All Blacks 2025:

Our loose forwards are fucking soft and nobody has mongrel. We need a couple blokes with some screws loose.

While normally I'd fully endorse an uncivilised descent into a psychopathic violent 80 minute frenzy, it doesn't sound like such a good idea in this age of tv cameras everywhere, large onfield screens, screaming TMOs and CARDS CARDS CARDS..

canefan

@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:

@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:

@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2025:

@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:

Razor needs to be put on notice by losing all his assistants except Ryan

The list of assistant coaches who would be willing to work with Robertson must be low. He's exhausted nearly everyone from the Crusaders system.

He doesn't get to choose. I want him to feel uncomfortable, he's been far too comfortable. Someone higher up should choose. Jamie Joseph will probably be one, a guy who seems no nonsense and bled black when he was a player.

the coaching team is too samey samey.
On the bright side, didn't Foster's team improve dramatically when his assistant coaches were replaced?! (And when they had COVID but we won't mention that).

Fozz had COVID and Joe coached us to a victory...

The Silver Fern

All Blacks 2025