All Blacks 2025
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@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
Razor on the other hand has to develop a 2nd row, entire backrow, two halfbacks, a 10, a centre pairing, and a back three.
The only players unavailable to Robertson from the RWC Final XV (the one we lost by one point with 14 men) when he took over were Aaron Smith, Mo'unga and Retallick. 14 of that game's 23 are in the current EOYT squad.
The idea that Robertson inherited some sort of poisoned chalice and was forced to completely rebuild a team is hogwash.
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@Victor-Meldrew Whitelock?
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@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Mr-Fish said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Mr-Fish said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@stodders said in England Vs All Blacks:
@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
Still nothing compared to the media firestorm Fozzie had to face
I think that's largely because Foster took over a good team, whereas Razor took over a bit of a shit show. It's deterioration vs going nowhere.
Cue someone saying 'oh we should have won the WC final with 14 men but for the ref'... yeah nah bullshit, we were crap and the good performances were the outliers.I'd argue that the team Fozzie inherited were already on the way down as demonstrated by our 2019 loss. I think Fozz got a lot of shit because there was fatigue for the outgoing coaching group by that time, and he didn't seem like he had the credentials for the HC gig
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
Still nothing compared to the media firestorm Fozzie had to face
I think that's largely because Foster took over a good team, whereas Razor took over a bit of a shit show. It's deterioration vs going nowhere.
Cue someone saying 'oh we should have won the WC final with 14 men but for the ref'... yeah nah bullshit, we were crap and the good performances were the outliers.I'd argue that the team Fozzie inherited were already on the way down as demonstrated by our 2019 loss. I think Fozz got a lot of shit because there was fatigue for the outgoing coaching group by that time, and he didn't seem like he had the credentials for the HC gig
That is disgusting revisionism
Care to elaborate? I was as critical of Fozzie as anyone. And he made lots of mistakes in selection and in gameplan. Things didn't seem to improve until Ryan and Schmidt joined him. But Razor's record probably isn't much better, and some of our play has been as bad. So I'm curious to hear your argument
I’m just not sure how Foster can inherit a team he’d already been coaching for 7 years. The RWC final team only had 4 (I think) players that had debuted post 2019 RWC. He didn’t have to do any work to develop players and he was still shit. Razor on the other hand has to develop a 2nd row, entire backrow, two halfbacks, a 10, a centre pairing, and a back three. Foster had his squad handed to him on a platter and only needed to tweak a few small elements
Foster was a poor AB coach. Nobody was surprised though as he was a poor Chiefs head coach too. Pretty good assistant though.
Dave Rennie came in and instantly turned Foster's Chiefs shitshow around, whereas Robertson has completely failed to do that for Foster's AB shitshow.
The same year that the contracting model completely changed for Super Rugby.
Not comparing apples with apples at all.
How so?
Switched from selecting from within your region to having carte blanche to contract from anywhere.
Around half the squad in 2012 came from provinces outside the Chiefs region (including 10 who featured in the final). In 2011 (and prior), Foster could largely only select from within the region (draft players excepted, who were largely players left out by other franchises).
Completely different landscape.
I'm not suggesting Foster's a better coach than Rennie, but he did a very good job with the Chiefs over a number of years. There's good reason why he was kept on for so long.
Different landscape, but the guys Rennie was competing with were playing by the same rules as he was, and he beat them all. And he did not have a team stacked with ABs by any means, there were a whole lot of young guys and journeymen playing above themselves.
Foster at the Chiefs: losing semifinalist 4th, 6th, 7th, 7th, 7th, losing finalist 2nd, 10th, 10th. Playoffs 2 years out of 8 and a 50% win ratio according to wikipedia. They played patches of very attractive rugby, but were not very good, a frustrating team to follow. If there was a good reason for keeping him on so long, it wasn't apparent in the results.That's exactly right - went from an unfair landscape to a fair landscape.
Rennie had access to relatively better players, more on par with the rest of the competition (especially Blues, Hurricanes and Crusaders). Even if Rennie weren't a better coach than Foster (which I believe he is), you would expect him to do better given the comparatively stronger team he was able to assemble.
Keeping Foster at the Chiefs was not hugely dissimilar to why Townsend is still coaching Scotland now. Are Scotland ever going to be better than they currently are? Probably not. But that's a product of the players they have, regardless of who's coaching them. The best crop of talent from within Scottish borders is never going to compete with the best teams around the world. Same sitch for Foster in Super. Occasionally they might outperform, but that should never be the expectation.
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@stodders said in England Vs All Blacks:
@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
Still nothing compared to the media firestorm Fozzie had to face
I think that's largely because Foster took over a good team, whereas Razor took over a bit of a shit show. It's deterioration vs going nowhere.
Cue someone saying 'oh we should have won the WC final with 14 men but for the ref'... yeah nah bullshit, we were crap and the good performances were the outliers.I'd argue that the team Fozzie inherited were already on the way down as demonstrated by our 2019 loss. I think Fozz got a lot of shit because there was fatigue for the outgoing coaching group by that time, and he didn't seem like he had the credentials for the HC gig
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
Still nothing compared to the media firestorm Fozzie had to face
I think that's largely because Foster took over a good team, whereas Razor took over a bit of a shit show. It's deterioration vs going nowhere.
Cue someone saying 'oh we should have won the WC final with 14 men but for the ref'... yeah nah bullshit, we were crap and the good performances were the outliers.I'd argue that the team Fozzie inherited were already on the way down as demonstrated by our 2019 loss. I think Fozz got a lot of shit because there was fatigue for the outgoing coaching group by that time, and he didn't seem like he had the credentials for the HC gig
That is disgusting revisionism
Care to elaborate? I was as critical of Fozzie as anyone. And he made lots of mistakes in selection and in gameplan. Things didn't seem to improve until Ryan and Schmidt joined him. But Razor's record probably isn't much better, and some of our play has been as bad. So I'm curious to hear your argument
I’m just not sure how Foster can inherit a team he’d already been coaching for 7 years. The RWC final team only had 4 (I think) players that had debuted post 2019 RWC. He didn’t have to do any work to develop players and he was still shit. Razor on the other hand has to develop a 2nd row, entire backrow, two halfbacks, a 10, a centre pairing, and a back three. Foster had his squad handed to him on a platter and only needed to tweak a few small elements
Foster was a poor AB coach. Nobody was surprised though as he was a poor Chiefs head coach too. Pretty good assistant though.
If being a good AB coach can be predicted by success at Super Rugby level, explain Scott Robertson?
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@jimmyb said in England v All Blacks:
Backrow: Akira Ioane was never the answer.
He was against Australia, Man of the Match. Perth, September 2021.
And he was for the Blues. -
@canefan said in England v All Blacks:
Dave Rennie came in and instantly turned Foster's Chiefs shitshow around, whereas Robertson has completely failed to do that for Foster's AB shitshow.
He also had Wayne Smith in the camp
Isn't Wayne Smith still part of the AB coaching club at least part-time or is it a Naked Gun type of cameo?
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@booboo said in England v All Blacks:
@Victor-Meldrew Whitelock?
Wasn't in the starting XV. That was Scooter and Retallick.
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Very disillusioned with the All Blacks the Foster and now this shit we are being dished up has really diminished my interest in watching AB games a few years ago I never thought that would happen.
But I see no end in sight the coaching, the players because this we have the players is BS we don't ,a lot are not hard enough to get through 80 minutes these days.The System seems broken how the Fuck did we get here. -
@Victor-Meldrew said in England v All Blacks:
@booboo said in England v All Blacks:
@Victor-Meldrew Whitelock?
Wasn't in the starting XV. That was Scooter and Retallick.
Frizell at 6 another who is unavailable?
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@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
The System seems broken how the Fuck did we get here.
cheerleader media tell you everything is fine and dandy until it's not.
NZR in general appears to be a long way away from a true high performance outfit. Where is the pursuit of excellence? It ain't in insta posts and marketing, it's in making tough decisions that affect people, setting and keeping standards and objectively evaluating strengths and weaknesses.
We have vibes. And a dysfunctional org/board. And a Super comp that we've turned from 'best in class' to 'also ran'. And no money. And a development pathway that stutters at best. It's completely borked, and the chickens have come home to roost.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
The System seems broken how the Fuck did we get here.
cheerleader media tell you everything is fine and dandy until it's not.
NZR in general appears to be a long way away from a true high performance outfit. Where is the pursuit of excellence? It ain't in insta posts and marketing, it's in making tough decisions that affect people, setting and keeping standards and objectively evaluating strengths and weaknesses.
We have vibes. And a dysfunctional org/board. And a Super comp that we've turned from 'best in class' to 'also ran'. And no money. And a development pathway that stutters at best. It's completely borked, and the chickens have come home to roost.
Yeah mate you have nailed it, but fuck me we should have never gotten to this place.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in England v All Blacks:
Backrow: Akira Ioane was never the answer.
He was against Australia, Man of the Match. Perth, September 2021.
And he was for the Blues.Oh please that match was a walk over for the ABs. Playing against the wallabies then was like shooting fish in a barrel. Against a decent team you’d have a point. Akira is just a fatter version of savea. We don’t need another back rower that can’t clean rucks
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@hikastags said in All Blacks 2025:
This is from 2024... but what a ridiculously large management team
Holy crap.
What the fuck is value-add of all these people?
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@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
The only practical way forward would be to:
Get rid of B Barrett, Savea, ALB, Reece
Fire Holland
New attack coach
New captain, S Barrett has earn his spot backSuper rugby teams are strong armed into developing a 6,10, and 15 for the all blacks. Meaning Love starts all games at 10 or 15.. Josh Jacomb is forced into the Highlander’s squad to start every match.
How's about we find out what the problems are first before solving them?
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2025:
Part of the reason why Rassie is so admired is that he put in place the systems that have elevated SA to the heights they are now at. He poured over the structural issues in Bok rugby as the General Manager: High Performance teams in 2012, before leaving for Munster and returning as the Director of rugby and Bok coach.
He had a forensic understanding of the talent that was available and also the bottlenecks that were stopping them from reaching their potential. He also oversaw a major revamp of the coaching structures and pathways. His legacy is so much more than just the Boks and WC triumphs and will likely last for a while after he calls it a day.
On Rassie, that’ stuff did take time and there were some ‘dark days’ along the way when he was head coach. Take 2018 - lost to Wales and England. Scraped by Scotland and that extra time try against France to win. And that was on the back of losing to the ABs, Oz and Argies in the RC.
So he brings in someone with all the experience for the 19 RWC and then steps away. No qualms with that and I like that.
So second bite at the cherry as the head coach after his assistant took over for 4 years.
I take nothing away from what he has and is doing but there were some difficult lessons along the way and changes to how they played. Rumblings from players and all that stuff that comes with not meeting fans high expectations.
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@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
Against a decent team you’d have a point.
Apply that to everyone then. Don't be selective. Fact is Akira played really well for the ABs and went up a level for the Blues. He was MOTM and dominant in a number of his games. Fine, don't pick him - that's ultimately the call of the coach and selectors - but you better pick someone who does more for you.
Who do we get? Simon Parker? Finau? Va'ai? Scott Barrett at 6? Struggling to see those as step change options against good teams.
What I am not seeing with this coaching crowd is taking people with attributes (strength, speed, size, etc) and coaching them to better players. Dane Coles is the poster child of this, he went from wild child to incredible hooker. And fucking Jerome K, he developed massively. So did Ma'a. Fuck, pick me someone from this squad whose game has been improved by this outfit. I'll wait.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
The System seems broken how the Fuck did we get here.
cheerleader media tell you everything is fine and dandy until it's not.
NZR in general appears to be a long way away from a true high performance outfit. Where is the pursuit of excellence? It ain't in insta posts and marketing, it's in making tough decisions that affect people, setting and keeping standards and objectively evaluating strengths and weaknesses.
We have vibes. And a dysfunctional org/board. And a Super comp that we've turned from 'best in class' to 'also ran'. And no money. And a development pathway that stutters at best. It's completely borked, and the chickens have come home to roost.
I agree.
Sadly, the social media etc stuff is a now a need, so the organization needs to catch up and become professional without overloading the players with that shit.
The board has seemed to be only focused on that, I believe because in their minds, they saw Razor as the magic bullet; the key points you've mentioned about pathways and domestic comps they don't want to face up to. Just look at the shit that goes down here if you bring up one problem with NPC, which was a great story for Otago this year, but that still doesn't make it fit for purpose.
It's beyond this thread, but this commercial focus is a result of selling off to private equity. The brand now needs to generate much more revenue just for NZRU to stay in the same place.
They fucked it up royally. -
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
Against a decent team you’d have a point.
Apply that to everyone then. Don't be selective. Fact is Akira played really well for the ABs and went up a level for the Blues. He was MOTM and dominant in a number of his games. Fine, don't pick him - that's ultimately the call of the coach and selectors - but you better pick someone who does more for you.
Who do we get? Simon Parker? Finau? Va'ai? Scott Barrett at 6? Struggling to see those as step change options against good teams.
What I am not seeing with this coaching crowd is taking people with attributes (strength, speed, size, etc) and coaching them to better players. Dane Coles is the poster child of this, he went from wild child to incredible hooker. And fucking Jerome K, he developed massively. So did Ma'a. Fuck, pick me someone from this squad whose game has been improved by this outfit. I'll wait.
Extra to that is that players can't escape an image that appears from early performances. In Akira's case, if he were a first year 6 under Cotter, he'd have been quickly ushered in to the ABs as the future. One of the best things about the 2000s coaches was that they didn't lock out players and continued to see their growth and benefit. It's a big issue in my mind that confirmatory bias appears to have crept into the coaches attitudes, not just the fans.
